GUILTY CA - Leila Fowler, 8, murdered, 12yo charged, Valley Springs, 27 Apr 2013 - #4

[Elainera]

You do know that a custodial parent cannot withhold visitation of a child to a non-custodial parent because of failing to pay child support, don't you? Or to withhold support payments due to being denied vitiation? A call to the local police to report the failure of parent "A" to provide access to parent "B" (get it documented) and go back to court.

P****** may have said anything -- it doesn't make it so. Certainly not in the state of CA.

<modsnip>

If this is true I wonder why the bio mom did not visit her children for years? Was there so much animosity between her and BF or C? That's sad, for all involved. She must have missed her children, and they her. And now one is no more, how sad is that.

Marking my spot.


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May I just ask what this phrase means? (not familiar with all the American phrases and I can't make sense of it here in this thread) Thanks! :seeya:

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Here's another account of IF from someone who knew him:

A 15-year-old boy who lives on Rippon Road in Valley Springs and often waited at the bus stop with I, said the accused was &#8220;weird,&#8221; didn&#8217;t have many friends and described him as &#8220;annoying.&#8221;

-----

Isaiah&#8217;s defense counsel said the family had requested the media and public not be allowed in the courtroom in future proceedings &#8211; a request Martin denied without prejudice.

&#8220;I see no impairment to the child&#8217;s right to a fair trial,&#8221; he said.

It doesn't make sense to me that the family and the lawyers keep talking to the media, and then request that that the media not be allowed at the proceedings. It's like they are saying that they only want the media to report what they tell them (that IF is innocent) and they don't want the media reporting about how IF acts at trial, the evidence that the prosecution presents against him, etc.

http://www.calaverasenterprise.com/news/article_88057bf0-befe-11e2-b801-001a4bcf887a.html

 

[tlcya]

OT helpful hint since so many new folks are following this thread.

When you are following a case it is easier to locate if it is on your subscription list. Your subscription list is the list of all threads you follow, either just lurking or posting.

There are several ways to get a thread onto your subscription list. One is by simply posting in that thread (as danzn16 did above). the other is to select the button on the top tool bar of this thread titled "thread tools" and selecting subscribe on the pull down menu.

 

[menmo]

It's not always environment, sometimes kids are born defective. Sometimes they're born with physical impairments and sometimes they're born with mental /learning or psychological deficits ....would it be okay to blame a parent if a child is born with autism? Of course not!
Sometimes they're just defective. I really don't understand the need to point fingers at this stage and blame the parents. does it provide some sort of false sense of security?
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IMO, sometimes people are made "defective" by the turmoil in their lives.

Unless nobody noticed the signs. :moo:

Or wanted to acknowledge them. I've known people that can't see who and what their child really is. Heard the old saying Love Is Blind? I really think in some people it is.

You do know that a custodial parent cannot withhold visitation of a child to a non-custodial parent because of failing to pay child support, don't you? Or to withhold support payments due to being denied vitiation? A call to the local police to report the failure of parent "A" to provide access to parent "B" (get it documented) and go back to court.
P****** may have said anything -- it doesn't make it so. Certainly not in the state of CA. <modsnip>

It's true that's the way it's supposed to work, and a Judge will tell you that but a call to the local police station in my area for not being able to have visitation as ordered will get them to tell you it's a civil matter and they'll tell you to get in touch with the prosecuting attorneys office. When some people have done that (again in a county I'm very familiar with) they have been instructed to hire an attorney. Some people do not have the money to go back to court and Legal Aid in our area does not help with these types of situations. Sometimes it becomes an ongoing problem with as soon as visitation is ordered, when someone does have the money to fight for their court ordered visitation, the custodial parent will allow it for a time and then stop it again.
It's true, anyone can say anything but that doesn't make it true, and that goes for all people everywhere, not just in this case or just the one you named.

MOO

 

[katydid23]

It's not always environment, sometimes kids are born defective. Sometimes they're born with physical impairments and sometimes they're born with mental /learning or psychological deficits ....would it be okay to blame a parent if a child is born with autism? Of course not!
Sometimes they're just defective. I really don't understand the need to point fingers at this stage and blame the parents. does it provide some sort of false sense of security?


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I agree with the content and essence of your post. But I have to add that in this particular case, the 12 yr old had not seen his mom in a few years. And there is a description of them together at the vigil, where he is closing his eyes and leaning into her chest. And it made me feel some sympathy for him because I think that 12 yr old boys that feel rejected/abandoned by their 'sometimes' mom, for whatever reason, even if it is not the reality, they are very vulnerable, and sometimes volatile. Especially if their father is being stretched too thin by a lot of other burdens and issues. JMO

I am not judging the family. I am just saying that those unfortunate circumstances were probably very troubling and badly affected that troubled kid. JMO

 

[tlcya]

there are two stories being offered regarding why PR has not seen her children. PR version and BF version. I am choosing not to fall on either side of the fence and further not debate the custody issue at all because IMO it is too slippery a slope and this case is already going to be difficult to follow what with the minor victim and perpetrator being siblings.

:twocents:

I can see this case becoming a real PITA for the mods

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Didn't we read at the beginning the family had only lived in the house for a few months? If so, they'll probably get reports from the previous school and neighbors from where they lived before. I'm trying to find that article with the neighbor's comments.

http://www.uniondemocrat.com/News/Local-News/Valley-Springs-murder-update

K... L... also lives five or six houses away from where the death occurred. “We are a really close, friendly neighborhood,” she said, “but that house had been rented a couple of times, and I hadn’t met the family yet.”

Still looking, was sure I read about how long they were there.

-----

A neighbor reports they were there last summer, but court documents filed by Barney Fowler last summer used a different address on Oak Glen Drive near Jenny Lind.

I feel like this is saying that the Fowlers moved into the Rippon home sometime during the summer. Summer is about 3 months long...so it's possible that they were living at the the Oak Glen Drive house for part of the summer and then moved into the Rippon house.

I also saw an article saying Leila had been going to Jenny Lind for the past 2 years. I'll try to find it.

 

[menmo]

A 15-year-old boy who lives on Rippon Road in Valley Springs and often waited at the bus stop with I, said the accused was &#8220;weird,&#8221; didn&#8217;t have many friends and described him as &#8220;annoying.&#8221;

Anyone can say anything about IF but that doesn't make it so. Maybe IF should be asked what he thinks about this 15 year old. Or maybe we should ask other kids. Guarantee they won't all think highly of him most likely either.
sigh

MOO

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Anyone can say anything about anyone but that doesn't make it so. Maybe IF should be asked what he thinks about this 15 year old. Or maybe we should ask other kids. Guarantee they won't all think highly of him most likely either.
sigh

MOO

Uh, the 15-year-old hasn't been charged with murder so I don't get your point...Why such harsh words for a teenager who was just asked a question by the media?

 

[Deleted member 96356]

Here's another account of IF from someone who knew him:



-----



It doesn't make sense to me that the family and the lawyers keep talking to the media, and then request that that the media not be allowed at the proceedings. It's like they are saying that they only want the media to report what they tell them (that IF is innocent) and they don't want the media reporting about how IF acts at trial, the evidence that the prosecution presents against him, etc.

http://www.calaverasenterprise.com/news/article_88057bf0-befe-11e2-b801-001a4bcf887a.html

I read an article on the site of a Bay area paper, and I'm sorry I can't recall which one, that quoted two schoolmates of IF who were at a diner or cafe. The first one described him as a bully, but the next chimed in with a positive impression of IF.

We might expect to see many more conflicting descriptions of IF as the case unfolds. Perhaps colored by the fact that he stands accused of murder, or perhaps because hey, not all kids like or get along with each other.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

I agree with the content and essence of your post. But I have to add that in this particular case, the 12 yr old had not seen his mom in a few years. And there is a description of them together at the vigil, where he is closing his eyes and leaning into her chest. And it made me feel some sympathy for him because I think that 12 yr old boys that feel rejected/abandoned by their 'sometimes' mom, for whatever reason, even if it is not the reality, they are very vulnerable, and sometimes volatile. Especially if their father is being stretched too thin by a lot of other burdens and issues. JMO

I am not judging the family. I am just saying that those unfortunate circumstances were probably very troubling and badly affected that troubled kid. JMO

I think on the nature / nurture debate this is a perfect example of why it is both .. a child may be born predisposed, and then environmental factors play into that to create a perfect storm. On the confusing relationships and parents stretched too thin, that may go towards understanding how one childs issues may have gone unaddressed or even unnoticed .. in a drama filled environment signs that one individual may be developing beyond bad behaviour towards something worse could be missed.

 

[blue22]

Has anyone seen this article? http://www.calaverasenterprise.com/news/article_f678ab20-befe-11e2-ad13-001a4bcf887a.html

They interviewed the wolf dog guy. I know he has been mentioned previously. I have never read him claiming this before.

Shortly after paramedics arrived, Melon said a man drove up in a white SUV with what looked like blood soaked into his shirt.

&#8220;A few minutes later a guy comes barreling down the road, jumps out, and hollers, &#8216;Did you see a Mexican come through here?&#8217; Somebody just stabbed my daughter. His T-shirt was covered in something orange-colored. He was about 6-foot tall, stocky and short black hair.&#8221;

Melon initially thought this was Leila&#8217;s father, but after seeing a picture of Barney Fowler, he realized he didn&#8217;t think it was the same person.

&#8220;He (Barney) has a goatee. This guy didn&#8217;t have one. Who was this guy?&#8221;

Seems a bit nutty now...

 

[mysteriew]

You do know that a custodial parent cannot withhold visitation of a child to a non-custodial parent because of failing to pay child support, don't you? Or to withhold support payments due to being denied vitiation? A call to the local police to report the failure of parent "A" to provide access to parent "B" (get it documented) and go back to court.

P****** may have said anything -- it doesn't make it so. Certainly not in the state of CA.

<modsnip>

A. LE will not make the custodial parent give the child up for visitation. That is considered a civil issue, not criminal. They go with the decision of the custodial parent. Their suggestion for remedy is to take the custodial parent to court.

B. Not everyone can afford to hire a lawyer and go to court. Yes, there is legal aid. But in most places legal aid is understaffed and overworked. They have waiting lists, and only operate under certain criteria.

C. And just because it isn't allowed to withhold visitation or child support, because of not receiving the other doesn't mean it isn't done. It is done quite frequently, by both men and women.

 

[Teche]

OT helpful hint since so many new folks are following this thread.

When you are following a case it is easier to locate if it is on your subscription list. Your subscription list is the list of all threads you follow, either just lurking or posting.

There are several ways to get a thread onto your subscription list. One is by simply posting in that thread (as danzn16 did above). the other is to select the button on the top tool bar of this thread titled "thread tools" and selecting subscribe on the pull down menu.

Thanks for the tutorial.

 

[MustlyLurking]

I disagree.

If this kid is a psychopath chances are no one saw or ever suspected a thing. They tend to be charming, helpful and respectful.... Even as children.


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You could be right. I have been thinking that, too. There have been so many other cases where the neighbors, friends, and family of some heinous killer have said that the guy was quiet, kind, or respectful and nobody saw it coming.

We may never know, but it will be interesting if the facts are made public.

 

[tlcya]

Has anyone seen this article? http://www.calaverasenterprise.com/news/article_f678ab20-befe-11e2-ad13-001a4bcf887a.html

They interviewed the wolf dog guy. I know he has been mentioned previously. I have never read him claiming this before.

Shortly after paramedics arrived, Melon said a man drove up in a white SUV with what looked like blood soaked into his shirt.

&#8220;A few minutes later a guy comes barreling down the road, jumps out, and hollers, &#8216;Did you see a Mexican come through here?&#8217; Somebody just stabbed my daughter. His T-shirt was covered in something orange-colored. He was about 6-foot tall, stocky and short black hair.&#8221;

Melon initially thought this was Leila&#8217;s father, but after seeing a picture of Barney Fowler, he realized he didn&#8217;t think it was the same person.

&#8220;He (Barney) has a goatee. This guy didn&#8217;t have one. Who was this guy?&#8221;

Seems a bit nutty now...

AND things just keep getting more fantastic.

German Wolf is what is known as a Eurasian Wolf (subspecies of the grey wolf)

for images of this type of wolf https://www.google.com/search?q=ger...780,d.cGE&fp=8c880f31fbb94c6&biw=1028&bih=592

The animals in the photo in the linked article are IMO a German Shepard and a mixed breed (mutt)

Not sure what to think of his most recent report. I would have thought this would have been something to mention when he spoke to reporters (and LE?) last week when they broke his story about no barking.

Maybe he did, maybe they just didn'[t find it important enough to mention and went instead with the dog barking thing but I highly doubt it. I think this might be additional info Mr. Melon is sharing only now.

I have MOOs on what that probably means.

 

[blue22]

AND things just keep getting more fantastic.

German Wolf is what is known as a Eurasian Wolf (subspecies of the grey wolf)

for images of this type of wolf https://www.google.com/search?q=ger...780,d.cGE&fp=8c880f31fbb94c6&biw=1028&bih=592

The animal in the photo in the linked article is IMO a German Shepard.

Not sure what to think of his most recent report. I would have thought this would have been something to mention when he spoke to reporters (and LE?) last week when they broke his story about no barking.

Maybe he did, maybe they just didn'[t find it important enough to mention and went instead with the dog barking thing but I highly doubt it. I think this might be additional info Mr. Melon is sharing only now.

I have MOOs on what that probably means.

Yep. Totally agree.

 

[Linda7NJ]

You could be right. I have been thinking that, too. There have been so many other cases where the neighbors, friends, and family of some heinous killer have said that the guy was quiet, kind, or respectful and nobody saw it coming.

We may never know, but it will be interesting if the facts are made public.

Agreed! I'm hoping we will get access to all court proceedings and motions.

What I really want, right now, is to hear the boys conversation with the dispatch.

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[oceanblueeyes]

Here's another account of IF from someone who knew him:

It doesn't make sense to me that the family and the lawyers keep talking to the media, and then request that that the media not be allowed at the proceedings. It's like they are saying that they only want the media to report what they tell them (that IF is innocent) and they don't want the media reporting about how IF acts at trial, the evidence that the prosecution presents against him, etc.

http://www.calaverasenterprise.com/news/article_88057bf0-befe-11e2-b801-001a4bcf887a.html

It seems they want to keep things hidden. I wonder why?

Don't they believe he is innocent? Why wouldn't they want the media there if so?

Strange.

 

[katydid23]

Yes, this info seems kind of 'fantastic' to be just coming out now. Wouldn't LE have given the public that description if they had it back at the start? ' BOLO; White SUV with blood soaked driver."