Identified! CA - Long Beach - WhtMale 15-19 - 1392UMCA - 'Paid' stamp on hand- Jun'78 - Kenneth Nevada Williams

[CarlK90245]

Forensic question: What does it mean when they say it appears he was dumped? How can they tell he didn't just fall into the street? Is there some particular injury, or something?

That's a good question, but I would guess that there might have been lividity patterns, indicating that he was lying in two different positions at different times after his death.

For those unfamiliar with this term, lividity is the pooling of blood into the lowest areas of the body after death. If a body's position is changed in the hours after death, patterns indicating the previous locations of pooling will remain after the blood pools into different locations on the body.

 

[carbuff]

That's a good question, but I would guess that there might have been lividity patterns, indicating that he was lying in two different positions at different times after his death.

For those unfamiliar with this term, lividity is the pooling of blood into the lowest areas of the body after death. If a body's position is changed in the hours after death, patterns indicating the previous locations of pooling will remain after the blood pools into different locations on the body.

Ah, thanks, I had read about lividity patterns but it didn't occur to me how it might apply to this case.

Clearly I would not make a good detective

 

[masnitram]

Have you seen this child? Brian Page

Missing From: PORTLAND, OR. Missing Date: Sun, Jan 12 1975. Brian's photo is shown age progressed to 60 years. He was last seen on January 12, 1975, after leaving a party with a friend in Salem, Oregon. Brian has not been seen or heard from since. The vehicle he was traveling in, a 1962...

www.missingkids.org

How about Brian Page from Oregon?

 

[CarlK90245]

Have you seen this child? Brian Page

Missing From: PORTLAND, OR. Missing Date: Sun, Jan 12 1975. Brian's photo is shown age progressed to 60 years. He was last seen on January 12, 1975, after leaving a party with a friend in Salem, Oregon. Brian has not been seen or heard from since. The vehicle he was traveling in, a 1962...

www.missingkids.org

How about Brian Page from Oregon?

There is somewhat of a resemblance. But IMO, his nose, particularly at the bridge, and the area between the eyebrows looks different.

 

[masnitram]

The photo of Brian Page has a pretty dark shadow over a portion of his nose, but I can see where you're coming from. The hair over the ears doesn't help in either photo sadly....but the physical specs are good otherwise.

 

[Anubis]

Forensic question: What does it mean when they say it appears he was dumped? How can they tell he didn't just fall into the street? Is there some particular injury, or something?

If you have the chance, look at photos of people who have simply collapsed and died and bodies that are dumped. There is a marked difference. Also, "dumped" bodies have other significant marks (bruising on hands, arms, upper arms, ankles, etc) where the hands of the dumper have touched the body after death. If a body is pushed from a vehicle as opposed to dragged out, you're going to have abrasion marks. This is a great question!

Just a guess but with Ocean Blvd on one side and E 2nd on the other (relatively large, busy streets even then), it seems highly likely someone turned down this side street. It is a one way street now, was it then? If yes, they possibly turned off East Livingston?

 

[Anubis]

Ah, thanks, I had read about lividity patterns but it didn't occur to me how it might apply to this case.

Clearly I would not make a good detective

Nonsense, you have the ability to question statements and ask for clarification or direction. Good qualities in a detective.

 

[carbuff]

Nonsense, you have the ability to question statements and ask for clarification or direction. Good qualities in a detective.

Thank you

 

[lieber32]

Just wanted to say thanks for your sleuthing

I just spoke with his sister-in-law, and she says that just she just spoke with him yesterday.

Back to the drawing board.[/QUOTE]

 

[Ambercat]

His IdentifyUs.org page: ** POST MORTEM AT LINK** The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)

I've come across his case on the various UID sites and would love to see this one solved!

While it's possible the "paid" stamp could indicate something sinister, I think it's more likely that shortly before his death he visited a friend who worked at a gas station or store and was messing with the supplies in his/her desk, and stamped his own hand. I can see someone that age joking around that way.

I am not sure if they do this anymore, but when people used to go to amusement parts, events, nightclubs, etc sometimes they would stamp your hand. That is what I always thought that this was. I would really like to see this young man identified. The area is residential (houses and apts) but the area is pretty busy all the time and if people heard something, they probably just didn't pay attention.

 

[Ambercat]

JMO, but he looks older than 15-19 to me. I wonder how they made that determination?

I really thought so, too. I assumed that his wisdom teeth were uninterrupted and that was why they thought he was this young. It would be good to know how the coroner did actually determine his age.

 

[Ambercat]

Browsing through HS yearbooks in the Long Beach area, i found this guy's senior photo in the David Starr Jordan High School (in Long Beach) 1976 yearbook. (Although I've looked through dozens of yearbooks, For some reason I keep finding possibles for different UID's from that school)

That's interesting. I took one of my cats to a veterinary office about a block from Jordan High School in Long Beach (While I don't live in Belmont Shore, I live close to the area where John Doe was found) and it is the opposite side of town and really a long distance. He would have needed to have some transportation to get from one side of town to the other. Unfortunately, that was probably the person or persons who dumped the body.

 

[Ambercat]

I agree. I am from the same generation, and when I was that age, there were alot of weekend parties like that where everyone would pitch-in for a keg of beer and everyone who contributed would get their hand stamped. Others who didn't pitch in were allowed to attend, but they weren't allowed to drink from the keg.

I don't think the stamp was from one of the local clubs, as LE would be able to trace the "Paid" stamp to a specific establishment.

Given where he was found and the layout of the streets, I am thinking that he may have come from Orange County, which begins just southeast of Long Beach. He was found one block south of East 2nd Street (which becomes Westminster Ave in Orange County).

See Map
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...65,-118.090668&spn=0.083057,0.196209&t=h&z=13

To someone wanting to turn off a busy street onto a side street to dump a body, it doesn't make sense given the layout of the streets that they would have come from the North (e.g., Lakewood or Bellflower) or from the West (e.g., San Pedro or Palos Verdes).

They would have had to drive down too many side streets coming from the North, and it is too complicated of a maze coming from the West.

I could sort of see coming from the west (San Pedro or Rancho Palos Verdes) if they went over the Vincent Thomas Bridge, through Terminal Island, over the Desmond Bridge then just keep going until you got to Belmont Shore. Lakewood and Bellflower, I'm not sure about. When I used to live on the Peninsula area of Long Beach, which is just past Belmont Shore, every Fourth of July, young people used to come from all over to the beach there, so it could be that he was someone not from the area but familiar with Belmont Shore. There are also a few bars that sometimes have music that you have to pay a cover charge (Panama Joes, etc.) that may have stamped his hand.

 

[Ambercat]

There is a (locally) famous gay nightclub called "Ripples" that is very close to where he was found. Second Street/Belmont Shores is an area that draws people for nightlife and parties; it is definitely a destination, and would not be a place someone would think of as a body dump. It's a beach community and too densely populated.

Randy Kraft was operating in that area during that time period. Dumping a body without abusing the victim was not his modus operandi, but if he was interrupted, who knows? Or, the victim could have just been a kid who overdosed, and his 'friends' dumped him in a place they figured he would be found fairly quickly and taken to a hospital. He could easily have been a runaway from another area, as Southern California (and especially the beaches) is well-known as a destination for kids on the run.

I wonder if Ripples (Ocean Blvd and Granada, a few blocks from where the young man was found) stamps peoples hand when they go in (I think they have special events there sometimes because sometimes you see people lined up outside along Ocean Blvd. waiting to get in). If, at the time, they used to stamp "Paid" on patrons hands for special events. There is also Yankee Doodles further down the street.

A few of Randy Kraft's victims' death were originally ruled accidental and the cause of death was changed once he was arrested, that is definitely possible.

 

[carbuff]

There is a (locally) famous gay nightclub called "Ripples" that is very close to where he was found. Second Street/Belmont Shores is an area that draws people for nightlife and parties; it is definitely a destination, and would not be a place someone would think of as a body dump. It's a beach community and too densely populated.

Randy Kraft was operating in that area during that time period. Dumping a body without abusing the victim was not his modus operandi, but if he was interrupted, who knows? Or, the victim could have just been a kid who overdosed, and his 'friends' dumped him in a place they figured he would be found fairly quickly and taken to a hospital. He could easily have been a runaway from another area, as Southern California (and especially the beaches) is well-known as a destination for kids on the run.

Ripples is a known Kraft hangout and he apparently used to work at Broom Hilda's nearby.

This kid wouldn't happen to be the one identified on the scorecard as "35. FRONT OF RIPPLES--Name unconnected to any unsolved murder."? At least a couple of Kraft's victims (Robert Wyatt Loggins Jr., for one) died of drug overdoses and don't appear to have been abused. (pointer to the scorecard article: http://articles.latimes.com/1988-10-02/local/me-4891_1_kraft-case-randy)

 

[Ambercat]

The case at the link below is a Randy Kraft victim found in Long Beach.

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1155umca.html

Prior to his death, he was seen in the local gay bars. There used to be a very clear postmortem photo of this guy on the LA County Coroner site, but it (along with all other postmortem photos) was removed from the site. The two facial reconstructions are fairly close, but they don't quite capture his overall look.

ETA: One of Kraft's murders occurred on June 11, 1978 (8 days after Belmont Shore John Doe's discovery). This murder occurred immediately after he was let out of jail. Kraft kept a "scorecard" (i.e., a cryptic list of his victims), and on his scorecard, he notated this murder with the words "Jail Out". I am unable to find any info on why he was jailed in this instance, or how long he was in jail.

It is commonly believed that "Jail Out" refers to Roland Gerald Young, 23, from Maywood, CA. Roland Young was in Orange County Jail for public drunkenness and released just prior to being murdered.

 

[Ambercat]

Ripples is a known Kraft hangout and he apparently used to work at Broom Hilda's nearby.

This kid wouldn't happen to be the one identified on the scorecard as "35. FRONT OF RIPPLES--Name unconnected to any unsolved murder."? At least a couple of Kraft's victims (Robert Wyatt Loggins Jr., for one) died of drug overdoses and don't appear to have been abused. (pointer to the scorecard article: http://articles.latimes.com/1988-10-02/local/me-4891_1_kraft-case-randy)

Where was Broom Hilda's? I know that it isn't there anymore and thought that it might have been on PCH in Sunset Beach. I know that the Buoy Shed (another bar Randy Kraft frequented and the leg of one of his victims was found behind the bar in April 1973) on PCH in Sunset Beach is now a veterinary office. I'm not sure about Stables in Sunset Beach (where Wayne Joseph Dukette (allegedly Randy Kraft's first victim) worked prior to his death) -- I think it may be the bar now called "Thursdays" because the outside of it looks like a barn, but I really don't know.

 

[Ambercat]

I took some photos of the area where this young man was found, so that people could get a better idea of the area.

Division at Corona looking East towards the bay --
Division at Covina (the next intersection going east) looking west towards Corona, Belmont Heights, and Downtown -- <modsnip: removed broken photo links>

 

[CarlK90245]

Take a look at this guy.

His initials are are JP (a Portugese name). He's from Cerritos High School (Cerritos CA) Class of 1977.

Cerritos HS is about 13 miles from the Belmont Shore section of Long Beach.

Here's the postmortem photo for comparison
*** WARNING - POSTMORTEM PHOTO AT LINK ***
http://i1354.photobucket.com/albums...em Photos/2616845050045078242S600x600Q851.jpg

I was a little doubtful based only on the 1977 Senior portrait. I was hung up on what appears to be a deformed nostril. But the 1976 junior-year photo doesn't show that.

And then I saw the beanbag chair photo, and he has a similar funky hairstyle as John Doe.

He also has a very similar earlobe in the 1976 junior-year portrait.

 

[DD Byrd]

wow. do we know that JP is missing or otherwise unaccounted for?