Cadaver Dogs, Search Dogs, K9 Units

[JusticeorJustUs]

I want you to teach your dog to read the manual.......LOL -

I told Casper to read it and he ate his.....I don't think he was impressed........ROFL!!

Seriously, who has a manual? Who has video tapes of all the training? That would take a library to hold them.

Geeshhhhhhhh these people are as nutty as fruitcakes.

ROFL! Casper gets it. Go Casper!

Oh, my Gosh, I really, really thought you had to be kidding. You were not. I know motions specifically related to the dogs are normal S.O.P. That was unbelievable!

I wish I did have a "manual". If it were, oh, say, a foot thick it would be great for smackin' Baez upside the head with. It'd be more of an education than he has now.

And seriously, knowing what all goes on at training, people getting their own dogs ready to work for both cadaver and live tracking...who the heck is going to be the one running behind videotaping, with audio no less?

What I want to know is...when it's water cadaver training, does the camera operator have to swim behind to catch it all?

Honest to Pete I think you and Coley have given me my laugh for the year. Wait until I show the search group this. There'll be no search training that night. They'll all be dying laughing.

 

[Coley]

James Bond has been posting interesting snippets about the epass records and phone pings. Maybe he or someone can point us to the right thread? It's very interesting what has been figured out. James Bond ie; says, you can believe GA and CA, or you can believe the evidence. ITA on this.

I'll send Bond a msg. I'll post in here or get him to come to this thread.

 

[SuziQ]

I'll send Bond a msg. I'll post in here or get him to come to this thread.

Thank you. To clarify why I stated that the car chase took place on the 29th, is James Bond was able to find the epass records that matched the scenario of events and even calculated how many MPH GA was driving in between tolls. We should probably move this discussion to the proper thread, but I'm heading out soon and won't be back till later.

 

[TURBOTHINK]

IIRC, LE took the pool pump and or the filter, which is why it needed to be replaced. You reminded me that we haven't seen the results of that testing either.

Oh........well that explains it...........I totally missed that LE took it.

There have not been any reports on it released............Hmmmmmmmmmm

 

[Coley]

Thank you. To clarify why I stated that the car chase took place on the 29th, is James Bond was able to find the epass records that matched the scenario of events and even calculated how many MPH GA was driving in between tolls. We should probably move this discussion to the proper thread, but I'm heading out soon and won't be back till later.

Ok, I have copied posts and sent Bond a PM. I suggested maybe starting a thread in the parking lot so we can discuss. I'll PM you or post here letting you know the details on how he would like to handle it. Sound good?

 

[Coley]

Oh........well that explains it...........I totally missed that LE took it.

There have not been any reports on it released............Hmmmmmmmmmm

I'm trying to find this about LE taking said item. Any suggestions or anyone have a link?

 

[Friptzap]

First, I'm not an expert. But from what I've read, if the body post-mortem expels fluids (like urine, feces, etc.) and if it is after time that the body starts to break down with its internal fluids that some of the decomposing fluids would be in small amounts with the urine and show as decomp. I could be wrong. But think that your body is a large amount of water and once the heart stops all the stuff starts to break down. You get the picture.

I know that at some point at decomp the body sometimes expels cells out of the mouth and nose lining too. That certainly would register to the dogs as decomp.

But if at the exact moment of death, if one was to defecate or urinate I would NOT think the dogs would show decomp on those fluids alone (if the body was instantly removed from scene). If the body held the fluid for awhile and then expelled it I think it would. What that time period is, I don't know.

Yeah, thanks to my edumacation! I do understand human biology and urine and feces would be the first sent that would accumulate. My understanding from looking at the above decomp website is that exactly. The skin is the very last thing to begin decomp and that can take several hours. At the moment of death the bacteria in your bowels takes over as your body can no longer fight it and it begins the decomp proccess. Rigor actually starts to begin it seems before the skin breaks down so my assumption, lending a caution here until I can gather further materials, is that you get zip from the skin itself until it actually starts to break down, and so the decomp smell within the first 10 minutes must be from bladder and bowel fluids leaking and either getting on the "cloth" or the "cloth" gathering odors comming from those materials, which leads me to believe if you were to place the "cloth" used to gather the sent on top of the body you would have the same result as placed under the body unless "fluids" are being absorbed by the cloth.

Now extending from that it also seems the longer one leaves the cloth under the body the more "other" sents can be gathered by the cloth, such as from the decomposing skin after several hours.

It seems there are several odors that are used in trainign, I will need to check out more about this. That is why I was asking because if she died in the pool and lost all function in there and was in there long enough what "fluid" would be dropped on the ground within say 30 minutes of death? My assumption is that the urnine and bowel fluids would be somehwat rinsed off by the pool water. Leaving only skin materials to fall onto the ground, but after reading the article it seems it takes much longer for the skin to decompose so no smells would be generated by the skin for much longer, esspecially since the water would further delay decomp.

This brings me back to my very very first theory on this issue. Look back and you will find it, I always felt she tried to drown her, perhaps first by using chloroform?, and then after she was unconcious placing ehr in the pool to actually drown peacfully. But I had always felt she dropped her and probably broke her neck or cracked her skull open when she tried to carry her up the ladder and thus could not sue drowning. This could very easily explain the smell at the pool if she lost bodily function. Then as she had access to the shed at this time, she went there and got the shovel and buried her temporarily and hit the road outa Dodge.

This would explain the body in the spot next to the playhouse, perhaps it was placed there while she dug and then the spot where she put her was the 3rd spot they hit on, and probably the strongest.

Then she waited, came back for gas, asked Tony to wait in the car, maybe afraid he would see something? Checked up on things, then came back, but from ehre I need time witht he timeline, guy next door told the cops she got the shovel on the 18th george thinks she got into the shed on the 20th and borrowed the shovel after, I think he is covering her tracks on this point, he made it sound like she needed to borrow his because he reinforced their shed and she could not get their own to dig the bamboo he so carefully trained her to dig up!

I think she was afraid to break into the shed that first time to dig up the body, hmm what about when she buried it? maybe it was open?

Then she came back in desperation on the 20th to steal the cans maybe to burn the body and or her car? Then on the 24th she gave George back his "fu....ing" gas cans?

16th: death - first hid body in ground in backyard?
17th: hiding out
18th: Borrowed shovel, dug up bamboo? or body?
19th looking for apartments with Tony.
20th: Stole gas, with Tony, where is her car? He takes here there? WHERE WAS THIS? LE needs to find out, could be where the body was? or in between? Did she burn the corpse?
21st 22nd 23rd: hiding out?
24th: Returned cans
25th 26th: Hiding out?
27th: Abandoned car

Forensics says the body was in the trunk 2.6 days right? 18th 19th and buried on the 20th? Or 22st 22nd and 23rd? Or did Forensics say the decomp found there was 2.6 days old? If so the first must be corect if the day she died was the 16th. And it fits the timeline of things Casey did. So the cadaver dogs hitting in the back yard makes sense. I think the decomp of 2.6 days old means that she must have gotten rid of the body right away after recovering it from the backyard. 2.6 days old, otherwise she would have needed to be alive much longer if she was in the car until the 24th or 27th even if you count back 2.6 days. Where was she while she was alive? and why would we have hits in the back yard otherwise? if she died later why would the body come back to the backyard where the dogs hit on say the 21st (for the 24th) or the 24th (for the 27th) ?

I feel very comfortable now tih this timeline:
16th: death - first hid body in ground in backyard?
17th: hiding out
18th: Borrowed shovel, dug up bamboo? or body?
19th looking for apartments with Tony.
20th: Stole gas, with Tony, where is her car? He takes here there? WHERE WAS THIS? LE needs to find out, could be where the body was? or in between? Did she burn the corpse?
21st 22nd 23rd: hiding out?
24th: Returned cans
25th 26th: Hiding out?
27th: Abandoned car

(same one as above obviously)
Now to trace her pings for the 18th me thinks! and maybe the 19th but the decomp would age longer and it was only 2.6 days old, I say maybe just in case forensics is off a tad?

 

[JusticeorJustUs]

Interesting reading, however I guess I need to understand the "cadaver sent" more, that site does not really explain that well.

Someone mentioned the pool earlier also, found this information on water dogs:
Water

A specialty subset of cadaver dogs is water cadaver dogs. Similar to cadaver dogs, these dogs have been trained to find the odor of decomposing human remains. However, water cadaver dogs have been specifically trained to locate and indicate the source of the odor to assist divers in a more directed and speedy recovery of a drowning victim.

http://www.illinoissearchdogs.org/capabilities/cadaver_dogs.shtml

this site also mentions:
Cadaver dogs are first trained to recognize a wide spectrum of odors associated with human remains, depending on their specific use.

Water cadaver is a little more difficult.

This is a super-simplified explanation and there is much more involved.

The dogs are taken out in a boat. The gasses from a decomposing body will break the surface of the water. Some dogs will break the surface of the water themselves with their noses. The dog will run back and forth, to and fro in the boat to indicate to the handler where the strongest scent is coming from. In that manner the boat can be turned around and "directed" towards where the dog indicates the strongest and where the body could be.

The body can be lodged under trash or submerged materials or, as in one case here, a barge that LE had to get permission to move.

In water cadaver the dog can direct you to the proximity of the body. Because of current flow it's a longer search and a bit more difficult to train and execute, and locate the body, but it gives divers a good indication of where to go under and begin their search.

In a land cadaver dog, he can take you to the exact spot.

Does that make sense or have I confused you more?

 

[Friptzap]

I realized that Frip........I was just making a joke about dogs needing to read their "training manuals".......It was kind of an inside joke between justice and I.....I am not aware of any LE which has a training manual per se.........If these things keep coming up in courts, I am sure there will be some provided by LE. The ole theory "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with BS." LOL

They usually outsource the training unless it is a very large department with huge budgets, then they either pay for the trained dogs, or pay for the training.

Some LE does train their own K-9 dogs for work with the officers, but that is an entirely different type of training with a different purpose.

There are certifications for all different types of training which have to be passed in trials to become certified in each specialty. There is a process to each one with excellent behavioral training pretty much a prerequisite. You can't take a dog which runs on a farm and start him in cadaver or perp training. You have to have good control of the dog first, then be a good handler before you start such specialties.

Just like all specialized training, not all dogs take to cadaver training - some do, some don't. Some breeds seem to enjoy it more than others, but that could be the handler too, as many people who are excellent handlers don't like cadaver searches.

Yeah, Iw as reading up on the training and everything involved, it is amazing how much work goes into it.

 

[Friptzap]

IIRC, LE took the pool pump and or the filter, which is why it needed to be replaced. You reminded me that we haven't seen the results of that testing either.

I must have missed that. waiting results now......

 

[SuziQ]

Ok, I have copied posts and sent Bond a PM. I suggested maybe starting a thread in the parking lot so we can discuss. I'll PM you or post here letting you know the details on how he would like to handle it. Sound good?

Perfect. Thank you.

 

[Friptzap]

Water cadaver is a little more difficult.

This is a super-simplified explanation and there is much more involved.

The dogs are taken out in a boat. The gasses from a decomposing body will break the surface of the water. Some dogs will break the surface of the water themselves with their noses. The dog will run back and forth, to and fro in the boat to indicate to the handler where the strongest scent is coming from. In that manner the boat can be turned around and "directed" towards where the dog indicates the strongest and where the body could be.

The body can be lodged under trash or submerged materials or, as in one case here, a barge that LE had to get permission to move.

In water cadaver the dog can direct you to the proximity of the body. Because of current flow it's a longer search and a bit more difficult to train and execute, and locate the body, but it gives divers a good indication of where to go under and begin their search.

In a land cadaver dog, he can take you to the exact spot.

Does that make sense or have I confused you more?

Oh no, no confusion here, the only part I ever was confused over was the scent itself, I fully understand tracking and such, and while I never read about the water dogs until now that makes perfect sense, or is it scents? ;-)

 

[SuziQ]

Fritzap or someone, I am still not clear on the 2.6 days. To me it could mean the body was there after 2.6 days, was there for 2.6 days, there 2.6 days then sealed in a container, etc. etc. ....so many possibilities.

 

[Coley]

Yeah, thanks to my edumacation! I do understand human biology and urine and feces would be the first sent that would accumulate. My understanding from looking at the above decomp website is that exactly. The skin is the very last thing to begin decomp and that can take several hours. At the moment of death the bacteria in your bowels takes over as your body can no longer fight it and it begins the decomp proccess. Rigor actually starts to begin it seems before the skin breaks down so my assumption, lending a caution here until I can gather further materials, is that you get zip from the skin itself until it actually starts to break down, and so the decomp smell within the first 10 minutes must be from bladder and bowel fluids leaking and either getting on the "cloth" or the "cloth" gathering odors comming from those materials, which leads me to believe if you were to place the "cloth" used to gather the sent on top of the body you would have the same result as placed under the body unless "fluids" are being absorbed by the cloth.

Now extending from that it also seems the longer one leaves the cloth under the body the more "other" sents can be gathered by the cloth, such as from the decomposing skin after several hours.

It seems there are several odors that are used in trainign, I will need to check out more about this. That is why I was asking because if she died in the pool and lost all function in there and was in there long enough what "fluid" would be dropped on the ground within say 30 minutes of death? My assumption is that the urnine and bowel fluids would be somehwat rinsed off by the pool water. Leaving only skin materials to fall onto the ground, but after reading the article it seems it takes much longer for the skin to decompose so no smells would be generated by the skin for much longer, esspecially since the water would further delay decomp.

This brings me back to my very very first theory on this issue. Look back and you will find it, I always felt she tried to drown her, perhaps first by using chloroform?, and then after she was unconcious placing ehr in the pool to actually drown peacfully. But I had always felt she dropped her and probably broke her neck or cracked her skull open when she tried to carry her up the ladder and thus could not sue drowning. This could very easily explain the smell at the pool if she lost bodily function. Then as she had access to the shed at this time, she went there and got the shovel and buried her temporarily and hit the road outa Dodge.

This would explain the body in the spot next to the playhouse, perhaps it was placed there while she dug and then the spot where she put her was the 3rd spot they hit on, and probably the strongest.

Then she waited, came back for gas, asked Tony to wait in the car, maybe afraid he would see something? Checked up on things, then came back, but from ehre I need time witht he timeline, guy next door told the cops she got the shovel on the 18th george thinks she got into the shed on the 20th and borrowed the shovel after, I think he is covering her tracks on this point, he made it sound like she needed to borrow his because he reinforced their shed and she could not get their own to dig the bamboo he so carefully trained her to dig up!

I think she was afraid to break into the shed that first time to dig up the body, hmm what about when she buried it? maybe it was open?

Then she came back in desperation on the 20th to steal the cans maybe to burn the body and or her car? Then on the 24th she gave George back his "fu....ing" gas cans?

16th: death - first hid body in ground in backyard?
17th: hiding out
18th: Borrowed shovel, dug up bamboo? or body?
19th looking for apartments with Tony.
20th: Stole gas, with Tony, where is her car? He takes here there? WHERE WAS THIS? LE needs to find out, could be where the body was? or in between? Did she burn the corpse?
21st 22nd 23rd: hiding out?
24th: Returned cans
25th 26th: Hiding out?
27th: Abandoned car

Forensics says the body was in the trunk 2.6 days right? 18th 19th and buried on the 20th? Or 22st 22nd and 23rd? Or did Forensics say the decomp found there was 2.6 days old? If so the first must be corect if the day she died was the 16th. And it fits the timeline of things Casey did. So the cadaver dogs hitting in the back yard makes sense. I think the decomp of 2.6 days old means that she must have gotten rid of the body right away after recovering it from the backyard. 2.6 days old, otherwise she would have needed to be alive much longer if she was in the car until the 24th or 27th even if you count back 2.6 days. Where was she while she was alive? and why would we have hits in the back yard otherwise? if she died later why would the body come back to the backyard where the dogs hit on say the 21st (for the 24th) or the 24th (for the 27th) ?

I feel very comfortable now tih this timeline:
16th: death - first hid body in ground in backyard?
17th: hiding out
18th: Borrowed shovel, dug up bamboo? or body?
19th looking for apartments with Tony.
20th: Stole gas, with Tony, where is her car? He takes here there? WHERE WAS THIS? LE needs to find out, could be where the body was? or in between? Did she burn the corpse?
21st 22nd 23rd: hiding out?
24th: Returned cans
25th 26th: Hiding out?
27th: Abandoned car

(same one as above obviously)
Now to trace her pings for the 18th me thinks! and maybe the 19th but the decomp would age longer and it was only 2.6 days old, I say maybe just in case forensics is off a tad?

That sounds pretty good. I have one question though.

The 16th-you say death. I also think this is when she died. But when? We know she was at blockbuster with TonE picking out death movies. Did she die in the middle of the night or in the am? Had she already been back to the A's to bury her or was she still in trunk?

 

[Friptzap]

Fritzap or someone, I am still not clear on the 2.6 days. To me it could mean the body was there after 2.6 days, was there for 2.6 days, there 2.6 days then sealed in a container, etc. etc. ....so many possibilities.

If I recall correctly the forensics report stated that the odor from the trunk was that of 2.6 day old decomp. Meaning the remains that left the odor was a body left for dead for 2.6 days and not that the remains where only in there for 2.6 days.

Unless I am mistaken they were very clear that the odor retrieved by forensics was from a deseased person that was dead no longer than 2.6 days. So that to me means that the remains could not have been left in the car from the 16th to the 27th or the decomp odor would be from a body that was 11 days since deceased.

 

[JusticeorJustUs]

Fritzap or someone, I am still not clear on the 2.6 days. To me it could mean the body was there after 2.6 days, was there for 2.6 days, there 2.6 days then sealed in a container, etc. etc. ....so many possibilities.

The way I interpret it is this...

The body exudes certain gasses as decomp progresses.

Day one you will have WWW and tests will show WWW.
Day one.5 you will have *advertiser censored* and tests will show *advertiser censored*.
Day two you will have YYY and tests will show YYY.
Day two.6 you will have ZZZ and tests will show ZZZ.

The odor samples taken from the vehicle indicated the gasses and odor of a body that had been deceased for 2.6 days.

So, when the body was in the car it had been deceased and decomposing for 2.6 days.

 

[Coley]

Fritzap or someone, I am still not clear on the 2.6 days. To me it could mean the body was there after 2.6 days, was there for 2.6 days, there 2.6 days then sealed in a container, etc. etc. ....so many possibilities.

I'm thinking it means Caylee was in the open for 2.6 days. But, I also think she was put into the blue bin so if that was air tight then does no decomp get out. To me decomp seems like a VERY strong smell so would anything keep it from leaking? I also wondered could the 2.6 days be split up? Like 1.3 days and 1.3 days. To me the 2.6 days leaves me with more questions. I think they should have been more detailed in the report.

ETA: Now that I look at other responses, I have no idea (to be honest) what in the heck it means. lol

 

[JusticeorJustUs]

That sounds pretty good. I have one question though.

The 16th-you say death. I also think this is when she died. But when? We know she was at blockbuster with TonE picking out death movies. Did she die in the middle of the night or in the am? Had she already been back to the A's to bury her or was she still in trunk?

My theory says she died somewhere between the time she was knocked out with the chloro, the rag was left in the trunk with her to keep her asleep. But, it backfired. Sometime between the time she was Chloro'd to knock her out so Mommy and TonE could party and the following morning, she'd O.D.'d on the Chloroform and was no longer living.

 

[songline]

no, this is the old interview with the FBI, she wanted them to do that back when they were there the first time. I am sure they want NOTHING to be done now.

Frptzap you are a sweetheart thanks for the clarification.

 

[Coley]

My theory says she died somewhere between the time she was knocked out with the chloro, the rag was left in the trunk with her to keep her asleep. But, it backfired. Sometime between the time she was Chloro'd to knock her out so Mommy and TonE could party and the following morning, she'd O.D.'d on the Chloroform and was no longer living.

So like what time frame? What time did she go to blockbuster?