Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #13

[deugirtni]

When my cat died... a slender cat.. I just think, even though some have posted to the contrary, but IMHO, something about a freshly deceased makes it at least seem heavier.. maybe a little later when... stiffness sets in.. perhaps it might be easier then? I'm not sure? I don't know, I'd like to see someone drag a 200lb body.. and not only drag, but also lift up into a vehicle or truck box. And yes of course LE is not going to release details which could jeopardize their case in any way... but... some fact that would further LE's claim, such as for example, even though Tim Bosma's (God rest his soul) body was incinerated, and presumably also cut up beforehand so that he would fit into said incinerator, there was still evidence from which LE was able to confirm tht his remains were found on the land of the accused. LE in this case however, said themselves that there was no smoking gun, only a bunch of little pieces that when put all together, made a clearer picture, enough for them to feel confident in getting a conviction to the charges they laid. DNA from the missing, found in the accused's truck WOULD be a smoking gun, being in possession of a bank card owned by the missing WOULD be a smoking gun.. so many things would really be a smoking gun, but yet they said there is no smoking gun. If they had something big, my bet is that they would leak it, if not openly state it to MSM.. not only to justify their charges, but also to intimidate the accused into a confession. MOO.

Several women in this forum have tested, and/or stated that they could drag a 200 lb body, and it wasn't as tough as they thought. I can also personally confirm a healthy male can easily do it, even in one's 50’s. If you haven't ever tried, it's a stretch to make that claim, and if you have tried it, you'd have to be very small in stature, or have an injury or disability for it to be impossible.

LE is not obligated to release evidence details to the public. Given the complexity of the laws regarding the release of such details, LE is almost obligated NOT to release the details before trial. I'm not sold on the benefit to the public good that the secrecy apparently offers either, but LE cannot compromise the case just to satisfy a curiosity. Whether you know now, or a year from now, isn't as big a priority as ensuring the case can proceed.

 

[Momma]

As has been discussed endlessly, if LE could prove NO left the house alive, that would have likely lead to a 3rd charge of 1st degree murder, instead of 2nd degree.

Is it possible NO was handed off to someone else? Anything is possible, but then what would the evidence be to lead to a charge of 2nd degree murder? There must be enough evidence to reasonably believe NO is no longer alive, otherwise I highly doubt they would lay that charge.

Sorry to be the voice of logic, and to dash hopes... but that is the ugly reality.

If NO "left alive" then DG would have also been charged with kid-napping or forcible confinement.
1st degree murder charges shows the perp premeditated the murder.
2nd degree murder charge means the perp was fully responsible for the murder.

That is why DG has been charged with 2 counts of 1st degree for AL and KL - the cops believe (and presumably have evidence) that DG murdered them and had motive. I suppose his ability to get rid of the bodies indicates some premeditation as well.

DG's other charge of 2nd murder of NO would be laid because LE probably assumes DG had no prior knowledge of NO being there, and quite likely had no motive to murder NO.

 

[garbagetweet]

Does anyone know normally when they disclose the evidence to the defence team? Is this normal to still be waiting on it two days before court?

I think it varies by case and with the amount and type of evidence. In the case earlier this year of Matthew Dr'Grood disclosure was available within a month. The killings happenen April 15 and he was taken into custody right away. At the first court hearing on May 22 it was mentioned that the defense was given a voluminous disclosure.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

If NO "left alive" then DG would have also been charged with kid-napping or forcible confinement.
1st degree murder charges shows the perp premeditated the murder.
2nd degree murder charge means the perp was fully responsible for the murder.

That is why DG has been charged with 2 counts of 1st degree for AL and KL - the cops believe (and presumably have evidence) that DG murdered them and had motive. I suppose his ability to get rid of the bodies indicates some premeditation as well.

DG's other charge of 2nd murder of NO would be laid because LE probably assumes DG had no prior knowledge of NO being there, and quite likely had no motive to murder NO.

(5)*Irrespective of whether a murder is planned and deliberate on the part of any person, murder is first degree murder in respect of a person when the death is caused by that person while committing or attempting to commit an offence under one of the following sections:

(a)*section 76 (hijacking an aircraft);

(b)*section 271 (sexual assault);

(c)*section 272 (sexual assault with a weapon, threats to a third party or causing bodily harm);

(d)*section 273 (aggravated sexual assault);

(e)*section 279 (kidnapping and forcible confinement); or

(f)*section 279.1 (hostage taking).

 

[Momma]

With all due respect to the original post by OutOfTheDarkness:

As has been discussed endlessly, if LE could prove NO left the house alive, that would have likely lead to a 3rd charge of 1st degree murder, instead of 2nd degree.

...and my proceeding reply:

If NO "left alive" then DG would have also been charged with kid-napping or forcible confinement.
1st degree murder charges shows the perp premeditated the murder.
2nd degree murder charge means the perp was fully responsible for the murder.

That is why DG has been charged with 2 counts of 1st degree for AL and KL - the cops believe (and presumably have evidence) that DG murdered them and had motive. I suppose his ability to get rid of the bodies indicates some premeditation as well.

DG's other charge of 2nd murder of NO would be laid because LE probably assumes DG had no prior knowledge of NO being there, and quite likely had no motive to murder NO.

.... missed the point! :thinking:

If the cops felt NO left the house alive, then he wouldn't have been murdered. Right?
Therefore.... they wouldn't have any grounds to lay a 1st degree, 2nd degree or manslaughter charge against DG. Right?
Irrespective of the degree of intention....

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Personally, I just don't think that logistically and realistically, DG had time to do all of what he had to do in the span of time that we know to be exact, ie between 10pm and 10am, and especially considering that it is unlikely he would have done it in daylight, too much potential for getting caught. If he was acting as one person, which, from the sounds of what info we have been able to gather regarding DG, is highly likely, how could he have possibly done all of that within such a short span... time really does fly when.. you're busy, you know?

I'm largely of the same opinion, but not so much about the timeframe he had. He really had more than the 12 hours...he had the days following their disappearance free and clear of any "observing eyes". He became a POI later that week. This could have been done in 2 stages. Again, assuming that he is responsible for this, he could have been in the process of getting rid of the bodies during the time following the 12 hours. Even the day they were reported missing, the Amber Alert didn't go out until 5:15 or 5:30 pm, so he could've been busy doing it while LE was initiating the investigation. As far as getting in, killing KL and AL and absconding with NO...that could've been done in about an hour or so, give or take. Especially when one is motivated to move fast. Remove the bodies, take them somewhere for hiding, go back, clean up, then spend the rest of the day and perhaps some of the following days to get rid of the bodies. So, in essence, he really had from 10:00 pm Sunday until at least late night Thursday to do all of that. I would say he disposed of them on that Monday, as he had no way of knowing how long he would have before they started coming in his direction.

The anomaly though is in the lack of noise, activity and observation of neighbors in that 12 hours that was available for the initial crime to be committed. I wouldn't wake up if my house was on fire, but there are many people that sleep very lightly...awakening at the slightest noise; some don't sleep much at all. Many families have dogs that bark at noises that are heard around the home, certainly alerting their owners, one would think. Even if he did put the bodies in a wheelbarrow and wheel them to his truck in the back lane, these days there are many motion-sensor lights on garages to detect movement which may have turned on. Aside from that, he would be jumping in and out of his truck dragging the bodies into it...and unless he has a hydraulic tailgate, that definitely would've made some sort of noise. There's certainly not a high likelihood that he removed them through the front...unless he opened the garage door, backed his truck in and did everything inside the premises. Many home robberies are committed this way I've heard. But that wouldn't account for the drag marks from the side of the house. If there was someone with him, you would think there would be double the noise...so I can't even wrap my head around how this was possible to go undetected whatsoever. You are right, that is a lot of work! DG is 54 years old, not 20 anymore...so there must have been a fair amount of dragging/shuffling/banging because IMO, he wouldn't have had an easy time moving or lifting AL who is considerably bigger than DG.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Though that's the time frame between drop off of NO and pick-up, it's only about 4.5 hours of decent darkness. So, though 12 hours was a timeframe, 4.5 hours was the working frame.

That is a good working timeframe to get in, commit the murders, get them out, drive them away, come back and clean up. 4.5 hours when you're motivated and adrenaline is high, is a fair amount of time. The disposal of the bodies could have been done later. Clean-up on the inside certainly could've been done when daylight...I doubt that he brought his truck back when cleaning up. He may have walked/ran a few blocks to go in unnoticed. This is not to refute what you're saying...the actual activities could've been done quickly enough..especially the "body removal" because really, that's all that would've had to be done during the dark hours, that and cleaning up the drag marks, but again, what is more difficult to understand or believe, is that he did this all without drawing any attention whatsoever...unless someone isn't coming forward with information that they saw something, but how likely is that? IMO, anyone who would've heard/seen the slightest thing that night after the case hit the news, would be more than willing to call LE and offer that tip. Something still doesn't make sense.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

With all due respect to the original post by OutOfTheDarkness:

As has been discussed endlessly, if LE could prove NO left the house alive, that would have likely lead to a 3rd charge of 1st degree murder, instead of 2nd degree.

...and my proceeding reply:



.... missed the point! :thinking:

If the cops felt NO left the house alive, then he wouldn't have been murdered. Right?
Therefore.... they wouldn't have any grounds to lay a 1st degree, 2nd degree or manslaughter charge against DG. Right?
Irrespective of the degree of intention....

Unless LE has evidence that NO was with DG (ie., little footprints at DG property), it would be considered 2nd degree only because DG had no way of knowing that NO was with his grandparents therefore, he became part of this and perhaps murdered without any intention by DG to do so at the onset. 2nd degree or manslaughter is definitely possible if there is enough evidence to prove that NO is no longer alive, for whatever reason...if DG took NO and hid him, certainly the 4 days that DG was in custody on the identity theft and POI interest points would indicate that there was likely no one to bring food or water to NO. IMO, NO could have expired due to neglect which would indicate a 2nd degree or manslaughter charge...although I was of the understanding that if a person dies when being forcibly confined, whether it was premeditated or not, this would be grounds for a 1st degree murder charge. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[LoisLane]

If NO "left alive" then DG would have also been charged with kid-napping or forcible confinement.
1st degree murder charges shows the perp premeditated the murder.
2nd degree murder charge means the perp was fully responsible for the murder.

That is why DG has been charged with 2 counts of 1st degree for AL and KL - the cops believe (and presumably have evidence) that DG murdered them and had motive. I suppose his ability to get rid of the bodies indicates some premeditation as well

DG's other charge of 2nd murder of NO would be laid because LE probably assumes DG had no prior knowledge of NO being there, and quite likely had no motive to murder NO.

I believe more charges can be added. Possibly the kidnapping charge would have compromised the integrity of the investigation and what LE wants the public to know at this time.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Several women in this forum have tested, and/or stated that they could drag a 200 lb body, and it wasn't as tough as they thought. I can also personally confirm a healthy male can easily do it, even in one's 50’s. If you haven't ever tried, it's a stretch to make that claim, and if you have tried it, you'd have to be very small in stature, or have an injury or disability for it to be impossible.

LE is not obligated to release evidence details to the public. Given the complexity of the laws regarding the release of such details, LE is almost obligated NOT to release the details before trial. I'm not sold on the benefit to the public good that the secrecy apparently offers either, but LE cannot compromise the case just to satisfy a curiosity. Whether you know now, or a year from now, isn't as big a priority as ensuring the case can proceed.

Well, I couldn't do it! Dragging it definitely may be possible, although a dead weight is different to drag, than one that is alive. But what about lifting it into the truck? That's infinitely more difficult than dragging something parallel along the ground, IMO.

 

[LoisLane]

One other idea that bothers me is that it could be possible DG was waiting for JO to leave and was waiting and watching her. If he watched her leave and enter her vehicle, it would have been obvious that she was alone and not loading a child into the car. That could be hard to prove unless they have truck photos that are within a viewing distance of the driveway and properly timed with the departure of JO.

Also, if DG made an appearance earlier on Sunday to have a conversation with AL or wish them well, he would have possibly met NO and JO. If NO was comfortable speaking to people he may have already said to DG he was having a sleepover, depends if DG has the confidence to speak with children. I sometimes find that the people I sense do not feel comfortable around young children are the ones my son talks non-stop to.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

A lot more of 'nothing'. News report says LE has been questioning DG rather regularly, meanwhile DG's lawyer says 'a couple of times'. They don't even have disclosure yet, and so here is the guy (DG) being hung by the public as guilty, and he and his lawyer do not even know what evidence all of these accusations are based on yet? Sure glad it's not me that had a spat with AL 7 years ago and also has a green truck (which green truck may or may not have any bearing whatsoever on this case at all, it just happened to be seen in videos... over what span of time I'm not sure).

IMO, I find it interesting that the Crown has not forwarded anything at all to DG's lawyer. There is copious amounts of documentation, one would think that they would have started a steady stream of it over to KR. Yes, the Crown has 30 days to present disclosure documentation, however, its really not in their best interest to do so...all this does is further delay the possibly impending trial...what is the benefit of that to the Crown? DG does not have to enter any plea until disclosure documents have been reviewed. so therefore, the court action tomorrow will be likely to set a new date for entering his plea...likely a month or two more down the road. The only benefit the Crown would receive from purposely delaying disclosure would be to attain more time....hmmm, wonder for what though? Very high profile case...you would think the Crown would be on it quicker than this for the fastest closure for family and others.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

One other idea that bothers me is that it could be possible DG was waiting for JO to leave and was waiting and watching her. If he watched her leave and enter her vehicle, it would have been obvious that she was alone and not loading a child into the car. That could be hard to prove unless they have truck photos that are within a viewing distance of the driveway and properly timed with the departure of JO.

Also, if DG made an appearance earlier on Sunday to have a conversation with AL or wish them well, he would have possibly met NO and JO. If NO was comfortable speaking to people he may have already said to DG he was having a sleepover, depends if DG has the confidence to speak with children. I sometimes find that the people I sense do not feel comfortable around young children are the ones my son talks non-stop to.

Kids are so sweet...your son must pick up on this and is being extra friendly to those people...too cute

JO apparently had her youngest with her as well, so she would be loading him into the vehicle. If DG was there during the day, that indicates a comfort level with the Liknes', IMO. Which is not the general belief held out there, however, I disagree with that general belief. JMO

Also, it has been speculated that NO was likely asleep when JO left him and he was left behind as not to be disturbed or cause JO more work for an already tired JO. If in fact DG may be privy to information regarding a sleepover at his grandparents, it brings me back to my question that I've asked several times....who requested the sleepover? NO or grandparents? Relevance of this question is....if it was grandparents...seems to be a most inopportune, disruptive time. JMO

 

[sublimemumma]

When my cat died... a slender cat.. I just think, even though some have posted to the contrary, but IMHO, something about a freshly deceased makes it at least seem heavier.. maybe a little later when... stiffness sets in.. perhaps it might be easier then? I'm not sure? I don't know, I'd like to see someone drag a 200lb body.. and not only drag, but also lift up into a vehicle or truck box. And yes of course LE is not going to release details which could jeopardize their case in any way... but... some fact that would further LE's claim, such as for example, even though Tim Bosma's (God rest his soul) body was incinerated, and presumably also cut up beforehand so that he would fit into said incinerator, there was still evidence from which LE was able to confirm tht his remains were found on the land of the accused. LE in this case however, said themselves that there was no smoking gun, only a bunch of little pieces that when put all together, made a clearer picture, enough for them to feel confident in getting a conviction to the charges they laid. DNA from the missing, found in the accused's truck WOULD be a smoking gun, being in possession of a bank card owned by the missing WOULD be a smoking gun.. so many things would really be a smoking gun, but yet they said there is no smoking gun. If they had something big, my bet is that they would leak it, if not openly state it to MSM.. not only to justify their charges, but also to intimidate the accused into a confession. MOO.

As I stated before my husband would have no problem lifting a 200 lb limp man into the back of the truck. He is an average man who does have a job that requires a bit of manual labour. I don't think this is a stretch at all to think DG could of done it. By his recent picture is he by no means a small, frail man. Also one running theory is that the bodies weren't in one piece and in garbage bags leaving the house. Sorry for gory details but you are wondering how he could of removed them on his own...

 

[sublimemumma]

I believe more charges can be added. Possibly the kidnapping charge would have compromised the integrity of the investigation and what LE wants the public to know at this time.

Agreed and wondering if this could be the case.

 

[winnnancy]

Kids are so sweet...your son must pick up on this and is being extra friendly to those people...too cute

JO apparently had her youngest with her as well, so she would be loading him into the vehicle. If DG was there during the day, that indicates a comfort level with the Liknes', IMO. Which is not the general belief held out there, however, I disagree with that general belief. JMO

Also, it has been speculated that NO was likely asleep when JO left him and he was left behind as not to be disturbed or cause JO more work for an already tired JO. If in fact DG may be privy to information regarding a sleepover at his grandparents, it brings me back to my question that I've asked several times....who requested the sleepover? NO or grandparents? Relevance of this question is....if it was grandparents...seems to be a most inopportune, disruptive time. JMO

IMO, a parent is always a parent. I'm sure that KL and AL were grateful to JO for helping.
I'm thinking jOs mother would have known her daughter would be tired-With 3 children and a job. She and NO we're close . She may have suggested leaving NO overnight but I doubt it would have been for any reason other than as a loving parent and grandparent

 

[sublimemumma]

Kids are so sweet...your son must pick up on this and is being extra friendly to those people...too cute

JO apparently had her youngest with her as well, so she would be loading him into the vehicle. If DG was there during the day, that indicates a comfort level with the Liknes', IMO. Which is not the general belief held out there, however, I disagree with that general belief. JMO

Also, it has been speculated that NO was likely asleep when JO left him and he was left behind as not to be disturbed or cause JO more work for an already tired JO. If in fact DG may be privy to information regarding a sleepover at his grandparents, it brings me back to my question that I've asked several times....who requested the sleepover? NO or grandparents? Relevance of this question is....if it was grandparents...seems to be a most inopportune, disruptive time. JMO

If my mom was leaving for an extended time to Mexico, weather having a estate sale or not, she would probably be begging to have one of her grand kids stay over as much as possible to get as much time in with them as she could. I really don't see this as a strange thing

 

[Krystine]

Snipped by me...If in fact DG may be privy to information regarding a sleepover at his grandparents, it brings me back to my question that I've asked several times....who requested the sleepover? NO or grandparents? BBM Relevance of this question is....if it was grandparents...seems to be a most inopportune, disruptive time. JMO

I don't understand the relevance of this question, and didn't when it was posted earlier in the threads by someone else.
What, exactly, is an inopportune, disruptive time?
Isn't that relative to the family's lifestyle?
It sounds like the L's were casual, 'go with the flow' type of people. You didn't need an appointment to visit them, you just dropped in and were always welcome, as KL's Canmore friend was quoted as saying.
A 5 year old grandchild staying overnight only needs a sleeping bag and a foamie to sleep on, maybe a snack and some juice,... I assume there was still running water in the home, flushable toilets.
What is being hinted at here? That they should have known they were in danger? That they 'faked their own disappearance' and abducted the grandchild? Just curious what the relevance is.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Well, I dont' know if I was DG, waiting in the darkness for the last person to leave the home before I went in to do my business, if I would just go in right away as soon as JO left. Secondly, where were the victims located in the house? Did DG just have a premonition about that and boldly go directly to those 3 spots? Who says all 3 victims were in the same place? I'm still also not convinced that he could drag the dead weights to his waiting vehicle, nevermind lift them into the.... back of the truck? Is that where people think he transported the bodies? So.... if he transported the bodies in the truck back thingy, then obviously he would have covered them? Is there a cover showing in that photo in which the truck was captured on video? Then... isn't there talk about 'cleaning up'? With a hose? But no cleaning inside? And... if LE had obtained evidence from the truck in regard to DNA, which absolutely would have been present, wouldn't they have happily reported this to MSM? But no smoking gun, they said, which that *would* have been. And then they also took AL's truck for examination? Why do that if they already had their truck? To me, that leads me to believe there is another truck out there WITH the DNA in it, but it isn't one of those 2 trucks.
All MOO, but to me, it makes so much more sense with all of this closing business/bankruptcy of the business/moving thing happening, the they (AL and KL) were specifically targeted by a group (more than one person), who just swept in, did the deed, and got out.. only perhaps being seen ONCE on that video, or not even at all, considering they could have traveled in another direction? Isn't that possible?
I just don't get why the public is so eager to hang DG with so little reported evidence.
I don't put all my faith in LE, any LE, because I have read about too many times when they were wrong, and yet they still want to proceed only with the one avenue, rather than think about allllllll the other possibilities. One case like that which comes to mind is the Audrey Gleaves case, where LE thought they had their man in DS, who was charged with murder, incarcerated, and then after months in jail, the judge said not enough evidence.. and LE was apparently, reportedly devastated with this ruling. So now the case sits unsolved, instead of LE putting on better thinking caps. Kind of like Guy Morin too. They were SO SURE it was him, but it was not. And so the murder remains unsolved to this day.
I am not a bleeding heart, I would in fact like to see at least some criminals receive the death penalty in Canada. I just would like to hear some better evidence against DG in this case. Sometimes in my own mind, it just seems like the evidence LE has broadcast is too good to be true.. ie a green truck seen a few times, (when exactly?), belongs to a family member with a 7 year old grudge who happens to be a loner and a previous criminal. So where is the evidence then, after spending weeks searching his truck and his property?

BRAVO!!! Another voice of logic! l am 100% with you which has been my stance since Day 1.
Add to this the fact that no disclosure documents citing any evidence against DG has been presented to his lawyer as of yet sure makes one think that perhaps there isn't as much evidence against DG as stated by LE. IMO, the Crown is buying more time to collect more evidence. I'm still holding the opinion that LE has arrested and charged DG with these murders as "likely insurance" because all that is required to charge someone is "reasonable and probable" grounds to do so...this, IMO, may be a 'pin the tail on the donkey' thing...he was the POI, released on $ 750.00 bail, public is incensed! IMO, LE arrested DG as he appears to be the most obvious player in this so far at least on the surface...they could not take the chance that he would take off like he has done in the past, therefore losing a potential murderer. IMO, there is likely more information that LE is becoming aware of that perhaps doesn't incriminate DG as much as was originally thought.

[modsnip]...the incidentals such as CCTV footage of the truck....CCTV footage of the truck...and more CCTV footage of the truck, [modsnip] previous history of petty, non-violent crime. The rest, IMO, is basically heresay of evidence yet to be seen. No one outside of LE has seen this evidence, not even those that are entitled to it have been given the courtesy. The Defense hasn't been apprised of the "evidence" against DG yet...what is the purpose of withholding? [modsnip].

 

[winnnancy]

BRAVO!!! Another voice of logic! l am 100% with you which has been my stance since Day 1.
Add to this the fact that no disclosure documents citing any evidence against DG has been presented to his lawyer as of yet sure makes one think that perhaps there isn't as much evidence against DG as stated by LE. IMO, the Crown is buying more time to collect more evidence. I'm still holding the opinion that LE has arrested and charged DG with these murders as "likely insurance" because all that is required to charge someone is "reasonable and probable" grounds to do so...this, IMO, may be a 'pin the tail on the donkey' thing...he was the POI, released on $ 750.00 bail, public is incensed! IMO, LE arrested DG as he appears to be the most obvious player in this so far at least on the surface...they could not take the chance that he would take off like he has done in the past, therefore losing a potential murderer. IMO, there is likely more information that LE is becoming aware of that perhaps doesn't incriminate DG as much as is hoped.

[modsnip]...the incidentals such as CCTV footage of the truck....CCTV footage of the truck...and more CCTV footage of the truck, [modsnip], previous history of petty, non-violent crime. The rest, IMO, is basically heresay of evidence yet to be seen. No one outside of LE has seen this evidence, not even those that are entitled to it have been given the courtesy. The Defense hasn't been apprised of the "evidence" against DG yet...what is the purpose of withholding? [modsnip].

IMO, after reviewing this post as well as others, I'm sensing a reluctance to explore DGs guilt and infact a persistent questioning of LE while at the same time, there appears pervasive desire to point guilt at a grandmother who may or may not have suggested a sleepover?