CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #2

[roseofsharon]

What were the dogs like when they were confined in a normal situation? Did they bark no matter what? If I recall correctly, Audrey had done this with them in the past. If she was murdered in the garage, I tend to think it was a surprise attack with very little noise, thus no barking dogs. I can only see a quietly confined dog situation if the person responsible is someone she knew. If I were dealing with a stranger, confining dogs that could protect me would not be an option.

Of course, the above is simply my opinion.

IMO, whoever came to AG's home was known to AG and no doubt requested that she confine her dogs knowing what was about to take place and since AG was found in her garage, with a cigarette package that was once held in place just under the stretchy waistband of her slacks, I believe AG put her coat on and thought she was going to sit outside on the bench with a friend for a cigarette and conversation.
Whomever this person was is probably a nighthawk also.

Has LE disclosed the time of death? I think the perp was known by AG and was there for a few hours before the murder on a between xmas and new year's visit or someone who knew she had been ill and wanted to see her.

Also, do we know if AG had identi-call or a cell phone and if so, was the cell phone found.

IMO

 

[dotr]

I've wondered that, myself. The only barking I remember is from the information that came from one of her neighbours. I believe they had a dog (or dogs) that started going crazy in the very early morning hours. Would they have been able to hear Audrey's dogs barking inside the house? Did they?

The last e-mail Linda received from Gleave was Monday night. It was a link to a version of Amazing Grace.

Monday night is the last time police believe anyone had contact with Gleave.
http://www.thespec.com/news/crime/article/307949--police-investigating-ancaster-area-homicide
No neighbours reported seeing or hearing anything suspicious over the past few days. But the Fergusons’ dogs suddenly began barking wildly around 2:30 a.m. Wednesday.

Hamilton police and OPP were on the scene Friday, searching the grounds, which include dense forest almost entirely around the property. On one edge of the property there is a cemetery.

 

[dotr]

I'm not so certain that the Thursday visit from the handyman, PK, was scheduled directly with Ms. Gleave. When he was interviewed, he made it sound as if he'd planned earlier in the week to deliver the gift but that since Ms. Gleave was ill, he took it by on Thursday. He mentioned that his wife did not go as she had to work.

Let me see if I can find one of the early links. Here it is:

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/309473--that-s-so-audrey

"...Gleave was a bit of a foodie and loved some particular recipes, including a specific spaghetti sauce and a coffee cake her ex-husband had made many years ago, he said. So for Christmas, Gleave asked for one of these cakes from PK, whose wife, A, is a pastry chef.

Gleave was feeling ill over Christmas, so they arranged to drop the cake off the following Thursday morning. It was with the gift in hand that PK stumbled on the horrific scene...."

more at link


So maybe "arranged" does mean that Ms. Gleave was expecting them and did not call as she'd already been murdered. It could also mean that the young couple arranged to make the cake and drop it off later, without giving her a specific time. It's not totally clear to me. I've seen no mention as to when a call was made from PK to Ms. Gleave or vise versa concerning a later drop off date. Did she tell him directly that she was ill or did he hear that from a friend?

Concerning the visit to the vet's house to pick up dog meds, that's confusing too:

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/309093--friends-remember-audrey-gleave

"....“They won’t be euthanized,” [referring to the two dogs] said Gleave’s veterinarian, DC, who knew her for 30 years and last saw her a couple of days before Christmas. Dogs were very important in Gleave’s life, he said. She would visit the graves of former pets at the Ancaster Pet Cemetery every two or three weeks...."

more at link


And:

http://www.ancasternews.com/news/article/227090

"....Veterinarian DC cared for Gleave’s pets for over 30 years. Just days before her death, Gleave visited DC’s home to pick up some medications for her two German Shepherd dogs, Togi and Schatzen..."

more at link

It seems that I remember another slightly conflicting statement made either by or about the vet and when he last saw her but I can't locate that link.

Another thought...the statement above says that she visited the pet cemetery every 2-3 weeks. I wonder if she went that week as she might have been lonely for her pets who had passed.

I've also wondered how she picked up her mail. Did she have a mailbox or did she go to a post office? Has anyone seen a comment as to when she last seemed to open mail?

I forgot about some of the info. from this fine post, concerning the cake-coffee! and about picking up meds for the dogs.... Sorry folks, I am useless at editing,so included the whole post instead of bolding.

 

[roseofsharon]

The last e-mail Linda received from Gleave was Monday night. It was a link to a version of Amazing Grace.

Monday night is the last time police believe anyone had contact with Gleave.
http://www.thespec.com/news/crime/article/307949--police-investigating-ancaster-area-homicide
No neighbours reported seeing or hearing anything suspicious over the past few days. But the Fergusons’ dogs suddenly began barking wildly around 2:30 a.m. Wednesday.

Hamilton police and OPP were on the scene Friday, searching the grounds, which include dense forest almost entirely around the property. On one edge of the property there is a cemetery.

Some people use this song at funerals, which gives me an eery feeling that the perp may have been the sender. Wondering, as AG was so private, would she have had her email contacts in her computer(s).

Also, did AG also send a note with the link or just the link. Was this link found in AG's favourites on her computer or was a search done for this song and on what date and what time.

Was Linda the only recipient of the email -- I thought PK also received it and a man from the coffee group. My memory isn't clear on this.

imo

 

[Hazel]

I can't seem to find the site again, so I will paraphrase.

When I read AG's obit, a woman with the initials CK (from memory), sent condolences online which read that AG always made her feel welcome IN her home!

Why were some people allowed in and a friend of thirty years plus only sat on the bench outside with AG, yet AG would be at LV home a lot inside her home. Something doesn't make sense here. Does this mean that when LV went to take AG soup because she was not feeling up to par, it was just handed to her through a doorway.

AG may have been a private person in that she didn't like to discuss her past, however, IMO she had a lot of friends! I also would not refer to someone who goes to a coffee group once a week as a reclusive person.

Reclusive/hermit type people, for the most part, only associate with others on a need to basis.

AG IMO sounds like she was a very interesting conversationalist with many people!

imo

I had questioned early on about how the soup was handed to AG, and wondered if it could have been canned soup, but most members here believe it must have been a bowl of homemade soup. I am now thinking it must have been a big supply of soup, since it appears LV didn't make any attempts to contact AG after that Monday to ask her how she was doing or if she wanted more soup or something else (or at least we haven't heard about it).
LV going to deliver soup is something we know from the e-mail AG sent to PK, but I cannot remember if that was mentioned/confirmed by LV herself in one of the interviews/articles :waitasec:

ITA with everything else you are saying in your post re Audrey not being a recluse and being private mostly about her past (and e-mail address).

Rose, do you remember if "CK" was female or male? Could you have read as a Comment under one of the many news articles?

 

[roseofsharon]

I had questioned early on about how the soup was handed to AG, and wondered if it could have been canned soup, but most members here believe it must have been a bowl of homemade soup. I am now thinking it must have been a big supply of soup, since it appears LV didn't make any attempts to contact AG after that Monday to ask her how she was doing or if she wanted more soup or something else (or at least we haven't heard about it).
LV going to deliver soup is something we know from the e-mail AG sent to PK, but I cannot remember if that was mentioned/confirmed by LV herself in one of the interviews/articles :waitasec:

ITA with everything else you are saying in your post re Audrey not being a recluse and being private mostly about her past (and e-mail address).

Rose, do you remember if "CK" was female or male? Could you have read as a Comment under one of the many news articles?

Hi Hazel ... It was a female -- first name was Caroline and I am going to try to find that site. It was one of those sites that has the mauve background (I hope this may help) and lists names of the deceased, along with people who have sent online condolences or lighting of a candle for the person, but I don't think it was the funeral parlour's site.

Usually, if one takes food to a sick friend/relative, the checking up on that person would continue until they are well again -- just my own opinion.

 

[roseofsharon]

Here it is ... sorry I believe it is the funeral home.

http://beckettglaves.frontrunnerpro...ondolenceView&viewOpt=dpaneOnly&ItemId=619536

 

[Hazel]

The only 'different' thing I can think of is this:

- dogs did NOT bark when someone (the killer) came to the house/garage

How do we know that they did not bark?

I believe what N_S_U is trying to say is = dogs didn't seem to have "alerted' AG that an intruder/stranger was approaching the house.
Say, if AG was smoking in the garage with the door open, she could have had time to run into the house to see why the dogs were barking.
That is just my interpretation of what I believe NSU meant

 

[roseofsharon]

The only 'different' thing I can think of is this:

- dogs did NOT bark when someone (the killer) came to the house/garage

So dogs knew the scent and weren't alarmed by the visitor!!

 

[Hazel]

Kinsmapj,I can't remember if someone already asked about the state of the dogs when AG was discovered - were they in a crate, or just confined in the kitchen - and how they are doing now?!Sorry to throw yet another question at you...

one more small question for you Kinsmapj (if I may), was there lots of dog poo in the area were the dogs were confined? That would be a good indication if they were there since Monday night or much later, isn't that right? Was there dog food in the crate or room (kitchen?) were the dogs were found?

 

[Hazel]

So dogs knew the scent and weren't alarmed by the visitor!!

We cannot come to that conclusion Rose, there are other possibilities, like Audrey could have been entertaining a visitor in the garage, so there was nobody approaching the house/hiding in the wooded area. The attacker could have been the visitor. It was Christmas time, someone she knew could have dropped by to bring her a present or just say Hi!

 

[roseofsharon]

LE were trying to retrace AG's steps that final week.

Since it was Christmas, I wonder if AG withdrew any money from the TCU and if she exchanged presents with anyone. Also, when was her last visit to the credit union.

 

[dotr]

I think most dogs would bark if someone approached the house, whether they knew the person or not.

 

[roseofsharon]

On one of the condolences on the funeral home website, a gentleman says he almost lost AG as an email friend because he forwarded some of her email jokes.

The only way AG would have known is because he told her, but what about other email friends that could have done the same thing and not told her they forwarded to someone else.

My point being, once you send an email to anyone -- privacy is out the window.

Just imo

 

[Kamille]

You know one thing stands out to me from that article and that is AG stated that she believed she would be raped and murdered.

Who would predict such an end to their life unless something from their past indicated that this could be a possibility? It just seems an odd thing to say to someone unless you have reason to believe you are in danger because of a threat from some point in your life.

She was described as a very private person and she didn't want her real name out on the internet it seems. But her name must have changed several times before she became AG. And even then, she didn't want her husband knowing her real given name. What was making her so paranoid? Why didn't she follow through with her education? Was there someone from that part of her life that scared her? Why did she feel the need to have large guard dogs, two at a time, and how or why did she get them to protect her so well even in the presence of PK? Are her two previous husbands still alive and have they been questioned? Do they have any insight into an incident that may have happened early on in her life? Were either of them abusive and threatening? Why did the marriages end?

This crime does seem personal to me. Nothing was taken and it appears that the crime was committed at an opportune time when she was not being protected by her dogs. Perhaps doing something that was very common to her like having a smoke in the garage with the door open. Which makes me think that someone was watching her and getting to know her habits. For someone who was so vigilant about their personal safety and who stated that she believed she'd be murdered, it just seems very strange that the opportunity to do so presented itself to someone.

The crime is described as having a "sexual component" but has not been actually called a sexual assault or rape. There does not appear to be DNA from a sexual assault either or they'd easily be able to clear people known to her and it doesn't sound like they're completely convinced about DS either. Just not enough of a case to get a conviction? Which leads me to believe that some sick person may have violated her in another way, perhaps with an object. Just horrific to consider. And taking something from her as a trophy conjures up all kinds of other horrific possibilities.

I so hope that this case does not go cold and that the person who did this to poor AG is caught and punished to the full extent of the law.

MOO

 

[Hazel]

just watched this commercial and thought of A's babies:

[video=youtube;hEgria14Sm0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEgria14Sm0[/video]
​

 

[Hazel]

IMO, whoever came to AG's home was known to AG and no doubt requested that she confine her dogs knowing what was about to take place and since AG was found in her garage, with a cigarette package that was once held in place just under the stretchy waistband of her slacks, I believe AG put her coat on and thought she was going to sit outside on the bench with a friend for a cigarette and conversation.
Whomever this person was is probably a nighthawk also.

Has LE disclosed the time of death? I think the perp was known by AG and was there for a few hours before the murder on a between xmas and new year's visit or someone who knew she had been ill and wanted to see her.

Also, do we know if AG had identi-call or a cell phone and if so, was the cell phone found.

IMO

Hmm, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe PK told us that Aud. usually carried a pack of smokes on her back pocket, but we have heard nothing about pack of cigarettes found in the crime scene.

Personally, I am not convinced the attack took place at nightime, though it could have been dark .... IIRC, December 23rd or is it the 22nd. is the shortest day of the year, it gets dark really early, around 4 pm.

The neighbour's dogs barking around 2:30 am IMHO doesn't necessarily mean that is the time when the attack took place. We don't know where in the house the dogs were confined, but I do remember Lily telling us a long time ago, that dogs COULD have been in the basement.
I have been thinking that perhaps the dogs were unaware of what had just taken place, and after hours/days they started to get an uneasy feeling....why isn't she coming to see us? We know how dogs "cry" when they miss their owner....when they start to feel hungry, thirsty or sense it's been too long since they last saw their owner.
Once we all went on a 3-day trip, and left lots of food and water for our cat. When we came back, the cat was at the door, and from the likes of it, she had stayed in that exact same spot where she greeted us 'good-bye" since we left. She didn't eat nor drink anything for 3 days waiting for us to come home

My point is the dogs could have started barking at the time they realized something was amiss, not because Audrey was being attacked at that moment. Her not e-mailing anybody after the 27th, seems to me whatever happened, happened before the morning of the 28th, but I could be wrong, all just speculation on my part. That is why I keep trying to find clues that could narrow down the timeline.

Good question re a "cellphone"....I don't recall reading about Audrey owning a cell-phone, perhaps others can help us with this .... PK, you around, pretty please?

 

[Kamille]

Very good point about the dogs Hazel. Wouldn't their condition, possible lack of food and water for a period of time, and whether they had releived themselves in the house make it easier to narrow down a time frame?

 

[Hazel]

Very good point about the dogs Hazel. Wouldn't their condition, possible lack of food and water for a period of time, and whether they had releived themselves in the house make it easier to narrow down a time frame?

That's what I just asked PK to answer for us...hopefully he is still around and will come post soon. Questions for him are growing by the minute, lol.

I am sure LE knows A LOT MORE than what is on the news. The pathologist must have given an approximate time of death, based on the autopsy, dried blood on garage floor, stomach contents, etc.....together with the conditions the dogs were found, the analysis of Audrey's computer, food in her fridge, left-over of soup, any unwashed dishes in the sink/dishwasher that could indicate if she just had breakfast, lunch or dinner, etc.

 

[roseofsharon]

Hmm, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe PK told us that Aud. usually carried a pack of smokes on her back pocket, but we have heard nothing about pack of cigarettes found in the crime scene.

Personally, I am not convinced the attack took place at nightime, though it could have been dark .... IIRC, December 23rd or is it the 22nd. is the shortest day of the year, it gets dark really early, around 4 pm.

The neighbour's dogs barking around 2:30 am IMHO doesn't necessarily mean that is the time when the attack took place. We don't know where in the house the dogs were confined, but I do remember Lily telling us a long time ago, that dogs COULD have been in the basement.
I have been thinking that perhaps the dogs were unaware of what had just taken place, and after hours/days they started to get an uneasy feeling....why isn't she coming to see us? We know how dogs "cry" when they miss their owner....when they start to feel hungry, thirsty or sense it's been too long since they last saw their owner.
Once we all went on a 3-day trip, and left lots of food and water for our cat. When we came back, the cat was at the door, and from the likes of it, she had stayed in that exact same spot where she greeted us 'good-bye" since we left. She didn't eat nor drink anything for 3 days waiting for us to come home

My point is the dogs could have started barking at the time they realized something was amiss, not because Audrey was being attacked at that moment. Her not e-mailing anybody after the 27th, seems to me whatever happened, happened before the morning of the 28th, but I could be wrong, all just speculation on my part. That is why I keep trying to find clues that could narrow down the timeline.

Good question re a "cellphone"....I don't recall reading about Audrey owning a cell-phone, perhaps others can help us with this .... PK, you around, pretty please?

Thanks Hazel, I thought I had read that cigarettes were found at the crime scene after AG's pants were ripped. Sorry for my confusion about the facts -- I've been reading so much!