Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #4

[andreww]

IMO, he locked the door on the way out for the same reason that he left his victim's bodies in an area that staff was instructed not to enter: in order to delay discovery of the crime. The more time that elapses between death and autopsy, the less likely LE is able to recover crucial evidence.
The door would also be locked if Barry was the murderer, but it would make absolutely no sense for Barry to commit murder-suicide in the least accessible room in their house, knowing that they would eventually be discovered anyway.

Locking the door does nothing to slow the discovery. The only people that are going to try to open that door have a key for it anyway. Why the pool area? There are not too many good places to hang yourself in a home, especially for two people. Closets are a common choice, but I'd rather go looking over a beautiful pool, wouldn't you?

 

[Grey-St]

1) BS discovered marital infidelity of HS and reacted in a rage. Sometimes in these instances a violent reaction is not unusual, as most people know from MSM and from WS. If the personal trainer, I wonder if HS advised the household staff to take Friday off when the trainer was coming to the house- they would be able to provide TPS with this information.

2) HS wanted out of the marriage- perhaps she had had enough of living with a workaholic husband who didn't share some or even any of her interests, and she wanted to enjoy her remaining years doing what she wanted to do. BS by all accounts couldn't accept losing at anything, and he knew that a divorce would potentially result in him not being able to retain ownership of Apotex. Maybe that was enough to put him over the edge.

3) BS seemed to feel almost guilty about his wealth, and perhaps even not worthy of it- evidence his conversation with the Senator at her cottage party as recounted at the memorial service. Maybe he just reached the point where he couldn't handle these feelings anymore, and the final straw for him was triggered by HS discussing their huge multi million dollar new house with their architect on Wed night. Perhaps they argued when they got home and he reacted violently.

It's time to get off the fence folks. All MOO

rsbm.

I so appreciate your point of view and well thought out response. My thoughts on these theories are as follows:

1. If there was marital infidelity, why assume it was on behalf of HS? To me it could go either way. HS could have confronted BS on his infidelity, and he responded in a rage to put her in her place. To implement the personal trainer in an affair because he showed up for an appointment, seems silly to me. In most domestic violence cases, it's the perpetrator that always possesses the upper hand and exercises control in all forms of the relationship. But what throws me off is the ligature. In a moment of rage, I see manual strangulation as more plausible than ligature. The ligature suggests to me planning on behalf of the perpetrator, in an attempt to not leave DNA residue.

2. While this could be plausible, I interpret their relationship to be one that was a partnership, working so well for them that it lead them into their 70's. It seems to me that they were planning the next stage of their life, together, with the building of their new home. I do respect however, that we never truly know the inner workings of a relationship, and divorce can occur for a plethora of reasons and at any age. But this is just the impression I get.

3. While also plausible, this home was in the works for quite a while. Why now would BS have an issue with the plans, with the cost, with anything? I don't see anything being news to BS in this meeting, but that's just my opinion.

In all three of these scenarios, the ligature still throws me off for the reason stated previously. When considering a murder-suicide, the only place my brain goes is to some dark or disturbed psychological episode on behalf of BS. I can't truly pinpoint any other cause or reason or event for this to have occurred. Was BS historically violent or abusive (physically or emotionally) within the family? I respect that we really don't know one way or the other.

Finally, I remain of the fence due to the little known facts we really have. All we can do is speculate from one side or the fence or the other, and I still see many possibilities as to why someone may feel deeply wronged by the Sherman's, or BS specifically.

 

[zencompass]

Thanks again to Dotr for asking to hear about others' views.

I have found them to be fascinating and I am able to see how each of us comes to conclusions on this case.

 

[AddyFinch]

Curious...if bodies discovered in pool area, why did Coroners Office remove them via front door? Or is garage located near there, I had assumed garage was underground with pool?

 

[dotr]

Sad, foreshadow @ 3:33 " We will be in the ground within weeks "

On October 15, 2017 hundreds of donors, politicians and community members came together to celebrate the groundbreaking for the Sheff Family Building, the expanded home of the Prosserman JCC, on Sherman Campus.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XB6Q1DnHIh4

 

[Blondie in Spokane]

Curious...if bodies discovered in pool area, why did Coroners Office remove them via front door? Or is garage located near there, I had assumed garage was underground with pool?

One poster mentioned earlier that the garage may have been a secondary crime scene, therefore the bodies could not be removed from that area. Definitely a possibility.

 

[AddyFinch]

I would like to think, double homicide, (for the childrens benefit), but now having difficulty getting around rage theory on Barrys part. A “hit” goes in, gets the job done, leaves. They dont stop to create an elaborate staging.
The theft of door box key is just too “easy”for Greenspan to toss out there.
As to TPS cops being bunglers....yes, there is quite a bit of truth to those thoughts, but I still have some faith “in a few good men”,( as to the Fargo comment, i agree poster was speaking tongue in cheek
I doubt BS was having an affair, she wasprobably too tired, and too busy to be bothered.
For now, I’m sliding over the fence by a titch....BS rage motivated. When the rage settled, he panicked, his brillant brain kicked in. He was sick of the fight, sick of the money, sick of the hangers-on, sick of her compulsive need to be a do gooder, and sick of the effects of aging constantly tapping him on the shoulder. He didnt want to move, he liked the place he lived in for years, it was comfortable there, it was familiar. After killing her, there really was only one option, and that was to join her, and while he was at it, he would leave one last fu to the people he conflicted with his whole life.....he put them under the microscope of suspicion.
And Joe Warmington....obviously he constructed his last snippet from reading us WS

 

[Inspektor Clueso]

It's amazing how I'm being shot down for speculating something that could VERY WELL BE TRUE (murder/suicide theory) , yet, many of you aren't questioning the murder theory.

I might have sounded harsh, but that's in your eyes. I was boldly stating a possiblity, not sugar coating it (why should I?). These kinds of things happen more often than we think. They are just as tragic as a suspected double murder would be. The only difference is that there's a stigma attached and when a stigma is involved, people get their back up. Including the Sherman family.

HECK! I could be TOTALLY wrong. I could be totally right. But I am still speculating.

Just my honest opinion.

 

[zencompass]

Thank you for your theory, AddyFinch.

You sure have me thinking about a "professional hit" getting in and out and not taking the time for such an "elaborate staging".

 

[zencompass]

It's amazing how I'm being shot down for speculating something that could VERY WELL BE TRUE (murder/suicide theory) , yet, many of you aren't questioning the murder theory.

I might have sounded harsh, but that's in your eyes. I was boldly stating a possiblity, not sugar coating it (why should I?). These kinds of things happen more often than we think. They are just as tragic as a suspected double murder would be. The only difference is that there's a stigma attached and when a stigma is involved, people get their back up. Including the Sherman family.

HECK! I could be TOTALLY wrong. I could be totally right. But I am still speculating.

Just my honest opinion.

Thanks for your honest opinion. I do agree that "these kinds of things happen more than we think".

You are also not the only one who strongly believes in the "murder-suicide" theory on these threads.

Just because people are horrified and can't believe something like this happened, doesn't make it "untrue".

We never know what is going on in someone's mind. We just don't. Hundreds of times I have read in other cases "he/she would never do that." But, in life, sometimes he/she did do that.

Having said that, I don't know if you saw my "theories post" but I've been back and forth and am now on the fence. I just am so perplexed about this whole thing. I think I am "over-complicating" everything.

 

[Inspektor Clueso]

What are reasons the elderly have done it besides illness

Define "illness" ?
If you mean "physical" illness (cancer, or something else), and they decide to end their life. That's one thing.

But did you know that you don't necessarily have to be mentally ill to kill yourself?
Debt, infidelity, tarnished reputation, revenge etc..etc.. I could go on. Killing yourself is a means of escape from all of that, but it's most often associated with mental illness.

 

[Ava_TO]

I am incredibly late to this discussion but like most "locals", this case remains on my mind. I go back and forth between murder/suicide and a professional hit. My initial thought was that Barry had taken Honey's life then his own (per reports that Honey was killed elsewhere and later moved)... but then how does one explain the detail that their jackets were pulled down around their arms, behind their backs, almost like restraints? This has likely been discussed at length and I will go back and read through this thread, but that is the biggest cause of doubt for me, regarding murder/suicide.

Barry has been described as a ruthless businessman by those who know him; he certainly made many enemies over his career. I once worked on a documentary on organized crime in Canada and it was amazing to me, the number of murders that were attributed to accidents/natural causes that were, in fact, "professional" jobs according to informants. Given that Barry had, at any given time, hundreds (literally) of court cases on the go, it isn't too far-fetched to believe that just one person was angry enough to seek some kind of permanent revenge.

At any rate, based on what little information has been released, I think compelling arguments can be made for both scenarios.

 

[AddyFinch]

As a relatively good expert in geriatrics, i can attest to many reasons for suicide in our older population, other than illness either mental or physical. And can add that, other than overt signs of suicide ie hanging, GS, etc, it can planned over a lengthier span of time vs immdiate ie. refusal of treatment, refusal of food, refusal of meds etc. Reasons.. elder abuse, lack of social contact, and the biggie.. financial.
On a side bar, the really interesting stories evolving from this case is the Iranian connection, Mr Trudeau connection, interference by local politicians, construction companies, and big Pharma. I can only imagine all the “bullets” that TPS are trying to dodge....
If it is a double murder, police will have to notify public. Doubtful Mr’s Greenspan and Torey can hush that up..... for very long anyways.

 

[Tillicum]

Hello everyone. I've been trying to get caught up. I'm still on the fence but leaning toward murder/suicide. I thought of another possibility if this is a murder/murder but I'm not sure if this has already been brought up before. If so I apologize.

I remembered what an old friend once told us about working in real estate sales. While he said there were great people working in real estate, he was shocked at the number of agents who would stab you in the back to get a listing or sale (commission). He said it was so cut throat that he got out of the business. So I guess what I'm suggesting is that maybe it's as simple as an agent taking revenge if BS and HS originally agreed to list their property with him/her and later listed with another agent.

 

[Grey-St]

It's amazing how I'm being shot down for speculating something that could VERY WELL BE TRUE (murder/suicide theory) , yet, many of you aren't questioning the murder theory.

I might have sounded harsh, but that's in your eyes. I was boldly stating a possiblity, not sugar coating it (why should I?). These kinds of things happen more often than we think. They are just as tragic as a suspected double murder would be. The only difference is that there's a stigma attached and when a stigma is involved, people get their back up. Including the Sherman family.

HECK! I could be TOTALLY wrong. I could be totally right. But I am still speculating.

Just my honest opinion.

No one shot you down for stating the plausible theory of murder-suicide. They contested the way you attributed the behaviour of the family. Appalling? Shame on them? That's what didn't sit well with folks, not your stance on MOD.

 

[Inspektor Clueso]

No one shot you down for stating the plausible theory of murder-suicide. They contested the way you attributed the behaviour of the family. Appalling? Shame on them? That's what didn't sit well with folks, not your stance on MOD.

Yes! It's appalling that a family of their financial stature could never think that suicide could possibly NEVER happen in their family. That's how it comes across IMHO! Not necessarily because it wasn't fully investigated at first....there are various views on how this reaction can be interpreted.

Here's a question - do you think that if TPS/MSM automatically thought it was a double murder at first glance that they would have reacted the same way? It's very telling IMHO.

Why should I sugar coat someone's behaviour if I think they threw a temper tantrum because TPS/media/whoever assumed the UNTHINKABLE at first glance? Most of the time suicide *IS* unthinkable! Especially if it's unsuspecting.

I'm just being real here. I can't apologize for the way I came across because I feel strongly about how they reacted towards the possibility of it being a murder/suicide. But I can bet every last modest dollar that I make that if it was initially assumed as a double murder, you would NOT have had this kind of reaction by them.

Therein lies the stigma.

I hope LE gets to the bottom of this very soon. I sympathize with the family for LOSING their parents in whatever manner they died. But let's be real here. If it IS murder/suicide, its upsetting to those who have lost friends/family members to mental illness, to hear that the 'elite' think they are above all of that.

JMO.

 

[Grey-St]

As a relatively good expert in geriatrics, i can attest to many reasons for suicide in our older population, other than illness either mental or physical. And can add that, other than overt signs of suicide ie hanging, GS, etc, it can planned over a lengthier span of time vs immdiate ie. refusal of treatment, refusal of food, refusal of meds etc. Reasons.. elder abuse, lack of social contact, and the biggie.. financial.
On a side bar, the really interesting stories evolving from this case is the Iranian connection, Mr Trudeau connection, interference by local politicians, construction companies, and big Pharma. I can only imagine all the “bullets” that TPS are trying to dodge....
If it is a double murder, police will have to notify public. Doubtful Mr’s Greenspan and Torey can hush that up..... for very long anyways.

Very interesting info, AddyFinch, and thank you for contributing it. However, I just can't think of anything suggesting that the Sherman's experienced elder abuse, a refusal of treatment, food or medication, a lack or social supports, or financial difficulties.

Your side-bar points are compelling, as well. It's certainly a complex case.

 

[AddyFinch]

Everyone has had excellent points. The more theories/ideas etc out there, the better for processing our opinions. I’m sure I will take the heat here for suggesting this but i need to say it....i watched a bit of funeral, and know that no two people grieve the same, but, i did find the childrens interactions odd. And correct me if Im wrong, but did the son say while addressing his parents that they had put their differences aside and vowed to contact each other every day? Or something to that effect?
No doubt they were raised in an environment of wealth, are they the product of a entitled lifestyle, or taught from the school of “hard work”. Somehow I think that would be BS parenting way, but who knows.....all speculation.
To me the children looked younger than i expected. Maybe that’s my issue? Maybe their youth, and not entitlement is why they immediately demanded a secondary investigation?

 

[Grey-St]

Yes! It's appalling that a family of their financial stature could never think that suicide could possibly NEVER happen in their family. That's how it comes across IMHO! Not necessarily because it wasn't fully investigated at first....there are various views on how this reaction can be interpreted.

Here's a question - do you think that if TPS/MSM automatically thought it was a double murder at first glance that they would have reacted the same way? It's very telling IMHO.

Why should I sugar coat someone's behaviour if I think they threw a temper tantrum because TPS/media/whoever assumed the UNTHINKABLE at first glance? Most of the time suicide *IS* unthinkable! Especially if it's unsuspecting.

I'm just being real here. I can't apologize for the way I came across because I feel strongly about how they reacted towards the possibility of it being a murder/suicide. But I can bet every last modest dollar that I make that if it was initially assumed as a double murder, you would NOT have had this kind of reaction by them.

Therein lies the stigma.

I hope LE gets to the bottom of this very soon. I sympathize with the family for LOSING their parents in whatever manner they died. But let's be real here. If it IS murder/suicide, its upsetting to those who have lost friends/family members to mental illness, to hear that the 'elite' think they are above all of that.

JMO.

Who exactly threw a temper tantrum? There's no evidence of such a thing. They made one very respectful and professional statement through a lawyer, asking for a thorough investigation before theories be concluded. I would be frustrated in their position as well. Cue my earlier posts as to why, as I don't want to rehash out of respect for other folks on this board.

It's not about stigma or the elite being above mental illness, they are a intelligent group, I'm sure they know no one is immune to mental illness. It has to do with them being blindsided, and knowing their parents, and that if this was murder-suicide, having no evidence to have seen it coming.

As much as you take offence to the stigmatization of mental illness, I take offence to the depiction you have painted of a horrifically grieving family, with a plethora of questions, who are also in a unique mental state equated to grief and trauma. I'm sure many before have reacted in a similar manner when faced with suicide, regardless of their socio-economic status.

 

[AddyFinch]

LOL no I’m also sure they suffered no elder abuse. I was speaking of the rest of our elder population. The Sherman’s weren’t the “common geri” but considering Canada doesn’t appear to have a high rate of Professional hits, I think the Sherman’s are really just like the rest of us, and capable of domestic violence.
As to the comment of suicide having a stigma.....absolutely truthful.
And at the end of the day, it really is all about the children getting the truth,respect and privacy in all of this.