Canada - Tim McLean, 22, decapitated on bus, Winnipeg, 30 July 2008 *Insanity*

[Crosby87]

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This whole case is bizarre to say the least .... not only has he been set free but his record has been erased and he has a new name... previous to the Greyhound incident he had been on meds but stopped taking them .... then he murdered .... who is to say it wont happen again.

I live 20 minutes from where it happened .... most of the gory details were not put in the newspapers ... during the lengthy standoff he ate part of the victim , including his heart .... and that poor policeman (who committed suicide) saw the whole thing and could not get it out of his memory.

Why did Vine Li stop taking the medication he was prescribed while he was in Toronto? Maybe he simply couldn’t afford it. We don’t know if he was employed when he was in Toronto, where the cost of living is higher than it is in Winnipeg. Perhaps this is why he left Toronto and went to Winnipeg.

WLB stated after he was given an absolute discharge, that he wants to pursue an education so he may not have a high school diploma. If this is the case, it is very difficult for him to find a decent paying job, live independently and support a wife. Because he worked as a part-time janitor in Winnipeg, it would be nearly impossible for him to provide for his basic needs (shelter, food, furniture, clothing, medication, utilities, etc.) and support a wife. We also don't know how well he communicates in English and If he has a valid Driver's License, which can also be barriers to employment.

In order to rent an apartment, you have to have enough cash on hand to pay a damage deposit which costs ½ a month’s rent, plus one month’s rent. A decent one-bedroom apartment in Winnipeg can cost $800-$1000 per month plus utilities.
I doubt WLB could afford this when he was only working a part-time job as a janitor. If he worked 20 hours biweekly at $11 per hour, he would make $440 biweekly, which is approximately $880 a month. That is less than what the Disability Program with the Manitoba Government pays. When he qualifies for the MB Disability program, he receives approximately $1000 per month and his medication is free. Also, I believe he can earn $100 a week without any deductions. If he is living in an apartment subsidized by MB Housing, which he probably is, he doesn’t require a damage deposit, the monthly rent is geared to income, and he doesn't have to pay for Hydro. If WLB remains under a doctor's care, the government pays for his phone.

Why was Vince Li on the Grey Hound bus the night he attacked and killed Tim McLean? After Vince Li committed this crime and was admitted to the hospital where he lived for 8 years or more, he didn’t have to worry about food and lodging and paying for medication, all his needs are provided for by our government.

WLB apparently wants to visit his family overseas, which is expensive, so if he has money to travel, it’s probably because he has been collecting welfare while he was incarcerated. I’m not sure how the disability program in Manitoba applies to WLB but he must be receiving assistance from the government since he can afford to live independently, which I doubt was the case before he attacked and killed Tim McLean.

If he committed this crime as a way of getting his basic needs met, now that he has accomplished that, I too agree that WLB is no longer a threat to society and he won’t commit a similar act again.

 

[Arnie M]

Crosby87 .... you asked .... Why did Vine Li stop taking the medication he was prescribed while he was in Toronto? Maybe he simply couldn’t afford it. We don’t know if he was employed when he was in Toronto, where the cost of living is higher than it is in Winnipeg. Perhaps this is why he left Toronto and went to Winnipeg.

I forget now (I followed the case closely in 2008 and my memory is rusty ) .... I dont think he was "severely schizophrenic" back then and could still function without meds .... something like that .

I also do not remember if any reason was given why he became so dangerous on the Bus that night .... apparently he was rather calm as he did his thing ..... and at first other passengers thought it must be kids acting out a morbid theater scene .

I do recall that shortly after he was taken into custody he calmly told the police ... "I should be killed" ... so he had some grasp on what he had done.

Our society extends compassion to those with mental illness .... but in this case I am troubled that he is set free with no oversite by doctors .

 

[Crosby87]

Crosby87 .... you asked .... Why did Vine Li stop taking the medication he was prescribed while he was in Toronto? Maybe he simply couldn’t afford it. We don’t know if he was employed when he was in Toronto, where the cost of living is higher than it is in Winnipeg. Perhaps this is why he left Toronto and went to Winnipeg.

I forget now (I followed the case closely in 2008 and my memory is rusty ) .... I dont think he was "severely schizophrenic" back then and could still function without meds .... something like that .

I also do not remember if any reason was given why he became so dangerous on the Bus that night .... apparently he was rather calm as he did his thing ..... and at first other passengers thought it must be kids acting out a morbid theater scene .

I do recall that shortly after he was taken into custody he calmly told the police ... "I should be killed" ... so he had some grasp on what he had done.

Our society extends compassion to those with mental illness .... but in this case I am troubled that he is set free with no oversite by doctors .

WLB has to remain in contact with his doctor in order to have his prescriptions renewed. Some doctors only prescribe medication after they’ve spoken to their patient in their office and since Li is supposed to take his medication for the rest of his life, he will always remain under a doctor’s care imo. If Baker stops renewing his prescriptions, that will raise a red flag which hopefully won’t go unnoticed by the medical professionals who prescribe and dispense it.

Also, when a person is on Manitoba’s Disability Program, which I believe Li is, their medication is paid for by the Govt of Manitoba, however, under this program, no prescription repeats are allowed so if Li is treated the same as everyone else who's on this program, before he runs out of Olanzapine, which he takes every day, he will have to verbally request a refill at a pharmacy and a pharmacist always needs to contact the prescribing doctor and get his approval. His treating forensic psychiatrist, Dr. J. Waldman, may want to see WLB each month or so in order to see whether he needs to alter the dosage in case Vince Li starts hearing voices again. That’s his prescribing psychiatrist or any physician’s responsibility to his patient and society at large.

“And whereas the Review Board has heard and considered all of the evidence, included the testimony of Dr. J Waldman, treating psychiatrist and Director of Forensic Services …. “
.
I found an interview Vince Li had with Chris Summerville, CEO of the Schizophrenia Society of Canada, when he was living in the Selkirk Mental Health Centre.

“Mr. Li was soft-spoken, using simple English as English is not his first language,” Summerville said.

At the start of the interview, Li says he remembers what happened on a Greyhound bus bound for Winnipeg during that midsummer’s nightmare in 2008 but now that he is medicated for his illness, he says the aliens he was afraid of have disappeared, the voices he heard are silent, and he is aware of why it happened on a different level.

<snipped>

Q. Tell me about your background.

A. I am a 44 years old and grew up in northeastern China in the province of Liaoning.

My mother and father are still living. I have an older brother who is a businessman and a younger sister who is a secretary. They know about the Greyhound bus situation, but my mother and father do not.

My wife and I immigrated to Winnipeg, Canada, in June 2001. I had studied as a computer engineer for four years in China. But I could not find a job in Canada. I worked at McDonald&#8217;s, Meatland Foods and at Grant Memorial Baptist Church.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/greyhound-bus-beheader-vince-li-i-dont-hear-voices
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/vince-li-discharge-1.3977278

 

[Grainne Dhu]

WLB has to remain in contact with his doctor in order to have his prescriptions renewed. Some doctors only prescribe medication after they&#8217;ve spoken to their patient in their office and since Li is supposed to take his medication for the rest of his life, he will always remain under a doctor&#8217;s care imo. If Baker stops renewing his prescriptions, that will raise a red flag which hopefully won&#8217;t go unnoticed by the medical professionals who prescribe and dispense it.

This is good to know, thank you.

At the start of the interview, Li says he remembers what happened on a Greyhound bus bound for Winnipeg during that midsummer&#8217;s nightmare in 2008 but now that he is medicated for his illness, he says the aliens he was afraid of have disappeared, the voices he heard are silent, and he is aware of why it happened on a different level.

<snipped>

Q. Tell me about your background.

A. I am a 44 years old and grew up in northeastern China in the province of Liaoning.

My mother and father are still living. I have an older brother who is a businessman and a younger sister who is a secretary. They know about the Greyhound bus situation, but my mother and father do not.

My wife and I immigrated to Winnipeg, Canada, in June 2001. I had studied as a computer engineer for four years in China. But I could not find a job in Canada. I worked at McDonald&#8217;s, Meatland Foods and at Grant Memorial Baptist Church.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/greyhound-bus-beheader-vince-li-i-dont-hear-voices
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/vince-li-discharge-1.3977278

SBM

That sounds incredibly lonely, to be withholding such a secret from his parents. My guess is also that Mr Baker feels like his parents would view him as a terrible failure, which is a heavy burden for anyone to carry.

I realise that showing any compassion for Will Lee Baker is not popular; in my own (Buddhist) belief, compassion is not a limited sum game. Feeling compassion for Mr Baker does not lessen the compassion I feel for Tim McLean and his loved ones.

 

[Crosby87]

This is good to know, thank you.



SBM

That sounds incredibly lonely, to be withholding such a secret from his parents. My guess is also that Mr Baker feels like his parents would view him as a terrible failure, which is a heavy burden for anyone to carry.

I realise that showing any compassion for Will Lee Baker is not popular; in my own (Buddhist) belief, compassion is not a limited sum game. Feeling compassion for Mr Baker does not lessen the compassion I feel for Tim McLean and his loved ones.

Before Baker visits his native China, he wants to enroll in a post-secondary training program and then establish a career in the City. Li had studied as a computer engineer for four years in China but he could not find a job in Canada. He worked at McDonald's, Meatland Foods and at Grant Memorial Baptist Church.

Now that his name has changed, if he visits his parents in China, they might wonder why he changed his name, unless of course, he hides this from them and goes by his birth name, Vince Li. He is likely divorced although I have no proof, I only know he lives alone. He and his wife both immigrated to Canada in June 2011.

In Li’s interview with Chris Summerville, CEO of the Schizophrenia Society of Canada, Li said “he would ask members of the McLean family for forgiveness, but he knows it would be hard for them to accept.”

According to Dr. Waldman, WLB’s psychiatrist, WLB has been living on his own in a Winnipeg apartment since November 2016, is involved with a church community, and regularly exercises at a local gym.

Unlike Canada, the punishment for committing murder in China remains capital punishment. Capital punishment is also known as the death penalty. The term capital is derived from the Latin capitalis ("of the head", referring to execution by beheading).

Capital punishment is a government sanctioned practice whereby a person is put to death by the state as a punishment for a crime. The sentence that someone be punished in such a manner is referred to as a death sentence, whereas the act of carrying out the sentence is known as an execution.

Crimes that are punishable by death are known as capital crimes or capital offences, and commonly include offences such as murder, treason, espionage, war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide.

While support for the death penalty for murder is still high in China, executions have dropped precipitously, with 3,000 executed in 2012 versus 12,000 in 2002.

Lethal injection and shooting are the only methods authorized by China's Criminal Procedure Law of 1996. Shooting executions were discontinued in 2010 per a People's Supreme Court ruling of February 2009 which held that lethal injection is a more humane form of execution than shooting.

http://cnews.canoe.com/CNEWS/Canada/2017/02/06/22702170.html

 

[kmclaren]

Not terribly significant but it's been bugging me! The title of this thread includes the word "insanity". Canada does not use that term and Vince Li/Will Baker was found "not criminally responsible" for the murder of Tim McLean.

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Canad...ice/Mental_Illness/Not_Criminally_Responsible

 

[Arnie M]

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Not sure if this news video has ever been posted , includes a few snips of police radio conversation and a witness description of the attack .... "he was calm and methodical" etc.


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[video=youtube;i79iisFWETY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i79iisFWETY[/video]

 

[Arnie M]

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Another news video .... this one with a boy who encountered Vince a bit earlier in a different town ..... "he was nice" ..... said the boy.

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[video=youtube;S9SL2tUjV_8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9SL2tUjV_8[/video]

 

[seemsfishy]

I don't know if it's right to let a guy like this out in the public, irregardless if he's ok and normal when taking medication. I regard him as a "sociopath" one who really has no emotions, although intellectually they know right from wrong. He had the ability to cut a guys head off, and all the time remaining perfectly calm. That tells you he has "no emotions" like everyday people do. These are the kind of natures that serial killers have-they lack the ability to feel any emotion-happiness, sadness, or whatever. Should society "hope" that he'll be a good boy, and take his medication ??? What if he becomes depressed or gets in a bad mood, and decides not to take his meds. Would it not be better just to confine him to a mental institution for life, and safeguard society from this guy repeating a similar offense- I think so !!! ( he should be locked up for life) All these Psychologists, and Psychiatrists with their so called therapy ??? do they think their going to change the "nature of the beast" ??? ( I doubt it)
Look at these "pedophiles" and after their in jail, and go thru so called re-habilitation,and these professional people say that this guy is now OK and not a threat to society anymore. The real answer is the guy is a good actor, and knows what they want to hear from him, and knows how to play the game. Are you going to change a man if he's attracted to women-"no way" -that's just the way he is, no matter how much councelling he has, and the same goes for homosexuals. I think China has not a bad policy as to how to deal with these kind of criminals-capital punishment, either by way of execution or lethal injection. At the very worst, our society in the West ( liberal) should at least protect society, and confine this man to a mental institution for life. I can't see how they can let him walk free ??? it's almost more crazy than the heinous act he committed.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Now that his name has changed, if he visits his parents in China, they might wonder why he changed his name, unless of course, he hides this from them and goes by his birth name, Vince Li. He is likely divorced although I have no proof, I only know he lives alone. He and his wife both immigrated to Canada in June 2011.

My father is Korean; what applies to Koreans may not apply to any of the Chinese cultures but my overall impression is that the attitude towards name changes may be the same. To Koreans, it is no big deal for someone who leaves Korea to work in the west to change their name, either in full or by adding a western style name. It's seen as a pragmatic choice by the person who changes their name to fit into their work and community environments more smoothly. When they return home (either for visits or permanently), they usually revert back to their original name. In Korea, a name change done legally in another country, such as the US, is not necessarily regarded as a legal name change in Korea--the person has to fill out a form and then get their passport re-issued, etc. It's a hassle, so lots of Koreans have two legal names, their birth name and one for when they are in the US or Canada.

Unlike Canada, the punishment for committing murder in China remains capital punishment. Capital punishment is also known as the death penalty. The term capital is derived from the Latin capitalis ("of the head", referring to execution by beheading).

Capital punishment is a government sanctioned practice whereby a person is put to death by the state as a punishment for a crime. The sentence that someone be punished in such a manner is referred to as a death sentence, whereas the act of carrying out the sentence is known as an execution.

I am familiar with the concept of capital punishment. Fortunately, I live in a state (Iowa) where capital punishment was abolished in 1965.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Something I just remembered, that I learned from a friend who was coordinating her parents' care during the last years of their life.

In the US, there are computerised pill containers that are set to dispense pills at the correct time(s) each day. The pill(s) fall into a little chamber with a lid. If the lid of the little chamber isn't raised within a certain amount of time, it sends an alert to the monitoring company, who then calls a designated person to check on the situation. This allows people who are forgetful or in the early stages of dementia to live as independently as possible but provides confirmation that someone is at the very least, removing the pills from the chamber they drop into as prescribed.

Obviously, someone could just throw the pills away but the studies done in order to get FDA approval (these are medical devices, so fall under the jurisdiction of the FDA) show that the vast majority of the people who remove the pills from the chamber do take the pills (confirmed by blood draws to check the level of the drug in their bloodstream).

And obviously, this is a device that is not meant specifically for people who have had criminal charges but at people who have not committed any crime other than being forgetful or in the early stages of dementia.

So, if some similar device is available in Canada, I wonder if it is something that might be provided to Mr Baker.

 

[Crosby87]

Not terribly significant but it's been bugging me! The title of this thread includes the word "insanity". Canada does not use that term and Vince Li/Will Baker was found "not criminally responsible" for the murder of Tim McLean.

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Canad...ice/Mental_Illness/Not_Criminally_Responsible

The information in the Assessment section states that In Canada, every person is assumed to be sane until proven otherwise
as well as innocent until proven otherwise.

When Li was arrested and in police custody, the Court upon hearing the charges, needed to know whether Li was sane. They already knew he was guilty of first degree murder so they unanimously agreed to contact the Director of Forensic Services,
Dr.Stanley Yaren, because Expert evidence is necessary to make a finding on an accused's sanity.

Li was held in custody and transferred to the Inpatient ward at the PsycHealth Centre where his sanity was investigated by Dr.Stanley Yaren. Dr. Yaren is retired now but he assessed and diagnosed Vince Li&#8217;s mental status, prescribed his medication, and provided the Court with an answer during the murder trial.

Dr. Yaren concluded that Vince Li was insane but not criminally responsible for murdering Tim McLean because he had an undiagnosed psychiatric disease or psychosis called schizophrenia.

Dr. J. Waldman, the forensic psychiatrist who replaced Dr. Yaren signed the Absolute Discharge and said that as long as Li takes his medication as directed, he will remain sane and not pose a threat to society because it protects him from negative entities. This is my interruptation.

 

[Crosby87]

.

Not sure if this news video has ever been posted , includes a few snips of police radio conversation and a witness description of the attack .... "he was calm and methodical" etc.


.
[video=youtube;i79iisFWETY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i79iisFWETY[/video]

I wonder if Vince Li practiced some form of martial arts? Chinese boys are not required to learn how to fight.

Kung Fu&#8217;s a commonplace art often practiced in China however, it is safe to say that a large portion, if not all, of the Chinese people living in every province/city in China are aware and know of Kung fu, but only a small percentage of people actually take the time to practice and train in martial arts. Westerners see this exotic version of fighting art alien and mysterious, peaking their curiosity.

Qigong is an ancient Chinese health care system that integrates physical postures, breathing techniques and focused intention. The word Qigong (Chi Kung) is made up of two Chinese words. Qi is pronounced chee and is usually translated to mean the life force or vital-energy that flows through all things in the universe.

Vince Li is presently working out at a gym.

Here are 9 things you need to know about Chinese schools:
1. teachers are uber-strict and are to be respected and feared.
2. The children learn Chinese in Grade 1.
3. Asians are known for being excellent mathematicians.
4. Teachers use a "chalk and talk" philosophy. Chinese classrooms typically have one teaching aid: the chalkboard.
5. Kids (and parents!) get insane amounts of homework. Even weekends and holidays have the equivalent of one day of homework for each day they're not in school.
6. Parents have to attend meetings and lectures, and then write reports on what they learned several times each year!
7. Parents have to check the daily homework and have their children make corrections before signing off on it.
8. Schools have unpredictable schedules so the parents never know when the term will end and the next one will start.
9. The daily schedule is also unreliable. School officially ends at 3:40 pm, but it&#8217;s a rare occasion when the teacher lets them out on time. Or even within a half hour of that time. The daily schedule includes a 2-hour midday rest period.

https://www.yoyochinese.com/blog/6-details-you-need-to-know-about-school-china

 

[Crosby87]

I don't know if it's right to let a guy like this out in the public, irregardless if he's ok and normal when taking medication. I regard him as a "sociopath" one who really has no emotions, although intellectually they know right from wrong. He had the ability to cut a guys head off, and all the time remaining perfectly calm. That tells you he has "no emotions" like everyday people do. These are the kind of natures that serial killers have-they lack the ability to feel any emotion-happiness, sadness, or whatever. Should society "hope" that he'll be a good boy, and take his medication ??? What if he becomes depressed or gets in a bad mood, and decides not to take his meds. Would it not be better just to confine him to a mental institution for life, and safeguard society from this guy repeating a similar offense- I think so !!! ( he should be locked up for life) All these Psychologists, and Psychiatrists with their so called therapy ??? do they think their going to change the "nature of the beast" ??? ( I doubt it)
Look at these "pedophiles" and after their in jail, and go thru so called re-habilitation,and these professional people say that this guy is now OK and not a threat to society anymore. The real answer is the guy is a good actor, and knows what they want to hear from him, and knows how to play the game. Are you going to change a man if he's attracted to women-"no way" -that's just the way he is, no matter how much councelling he has, and the same goes for homosexuals. I think China has not a bad policy as to how to deal with these kind of criminals-capital punishment, either by way of execution or lethal injection. At the very worst, our society in the West ( liberal) should at least protect society, and confine this man to a mental institution for life. I can't see how they can let him walk free ??? it's almost more crazy than the heinous act he committed.

&#8220;No parole board that considers the outrageousness of Mr. Aron&#8217;s crimes, which also included stashing cutup body pieces in a freezer, would ever let him out&#8221;

Levi Aron, a hardware store clerk who killed and dismembered an 8-year-old Brooklyn boy in 2011, stunning both the close-knit Orthodox Jewish community where they lived and the city, was sentenced Wednesday to 40 years to life in prison.

Levi Aron, 37, who kidnapped Leiby Kletzky as he walked home on a summer day in Borough Park before killing him and stuffing some of his remains in a suitcase, barely spoke during the brief proceeding in State Supreme Court in Brooklyn.

Mr. Aron, who has a history of mental illness, was under the care of a doctor when he killed a boy because bottles of prescribed medication were in his apartment. Mr Aron had faced the possibility of a life sentence, but under a deal worked out with the district attorney&#8217;s office this month, Mr. Aron pleaded guilty to one charge of second-degree murder and one charge of second-degree kidnapping, which carry lighter sentences.

Suggesting an explanation for his client&#8217;s actions, Mr. Greenberg added that Mr. Aron&#8217;s family had a history of schizophrenia, and Mr. Aron suffered a traumatic brain injury when he was young.

The plea, on Aug. 9, also came after psychological tests concluded that Mr. Aron&#8217;s mental problems would not qualify him for an insanity defense.

Mr. Aron kidnapped Leiby and drove him to a wedding in Rockland County, and later brought him to his attic apartment in Kensington, Brooklyn.

After Leiby&#8217;s abduction, thousands of neighbors took to the streets to try to find him, in a missing-child case that shocked a Hasidic community known for being insular and largely safe. At the same time, the missing-child case recalled an earlier, more dangerous era in New York City, when many children were forbidden to walk by themselves.

As the search intensified, Mr. Aron panicked, according to testimony, and suffocated the boy before chopping him up. Some pieces ended up in Mr. Aron&#8217;s freezer; others were stuffed in the suitcase, which was thrown in a Dumpster a few miles away. Video from surveillance cameras eventually led the police to Mr. Aron.

Mr. Hikind also forcefully played down the possibility that Mr. Aron could be released from prison in 2052, when he is up for parole. &#8220;No parole board that considers the outrageousness of Mr. Aron&#8217;s crimes, which also included stashing cutup body pieces in a freezer, would ever let him out&#8221;, Mr. Hikind said.

If Mr. Aron committed this crime in Canada, he would likely be found not criminally responsible and eventually receive an absolute discharge just like Vince Li..

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/30/n...o-40-years-in-killing-of-leiby-kletzky-8.html

 

[Gardenista]

10 years after Greyhound beheading, family of victim and bystanders still suffering | CBC News

 

[Trvl4Lyfe]

Just awful