Cesar Laurean's Trial

[oceanblueeyes]

That's true but even if she didn't notice anything amiss in the garage the dog must have unless it lost it's sense of smell.....MOO

It just isnt logical that she wouldnt go into the garage a lot. We all know how many clothes can get dirty when we have a toddler. It happened on Friday and imo like any other working wife and mother she washed and dried their clothes on the weekend.

Imo she knew that Friday that Maria was dead.

She reminds me of the three monkeys. See no evil. Hear no evil. Speak no evil. lol

imo

 

[panthera]

I just wish there had been definitive concrete evidence tying Cesar to the homicide itself. Because they really couldn't link him to it, I will always wonder if the right one is in prison. Although if it is his choice to protect her (the mother of his child), he has resigned himself to prison life.

I just keeping thinking how would a wife react if they walked into their own home and found the woman inside who had accused their husband of not only raping them but also saying she was carrying his child.

I think even a nonviolent woman would erupt into an uncontrollable rage. Doing something horrendous that they never would normally do.

I didn't buy Dewey's spiel that Christina couldn't swing a 12 pound crowbar. My goodness I use a sledge hammer sometimes that weighs more than that and I am 63 years old. lol Dewey conveniently tried to make Christina into a weakling even though female Marines have to meet physical requirements every year just like the male Marines do.

I really wish the trial had been cut and dried. Simple with all questions answered or at least a lot of them and that didn't leave me with doubts.

I am not sure I will ever feel I know the real truth in this case.

IMO

Completely agree, ocean. Not many women would've appreciated having their husband's accuser in their home. And a twelve pound crowbar would be nothing to wield for any trained Marine. I still would like to know, however, why Cesar would have had to use it as in most cases where there is a relationship, strangulation is more common. On the other hand, it is more understandable that a woman would've picked up the first available weapon. MOO

 

[panthera]

It just isnt logical that she wouldnt go into the garage a lot. We all know how many clothes can get dirty when we have a toddler. It happened on Friday and imo like any other working wife and mother she washed and dried their clothes on the weekend.

Imo she knew that Friday that Maria was dead.

She reminds me of the three monkeys. See no evil. Hear no evil. Speak no evil. lol

imo

Another point on the subject of the garage. The DA's theory was that possibly Cesar and Maria were looking at baby clothes in the garage just before he bludgeoned her, yet we're to assume Maria's dead body was in the same garage for two days (at least) and yet no one else in the house (Christina, the little girl, or the dog) noticed her or any odor. :waitasec: MOO

 

[GeekyGirl]

I thought her lawyer was in court and said she wouldnt be testifying?

IMO

Yes, he was... There are two parts to the whole spouse thing, the privilege of marital communication (meaning anything said or written to your spouse in confidence) can be envoked by either spouse. The spousal testimony privilege (the right to refuse to give any testimony in a case where your spouse is the defendant) can only be claimed by the spouse who is being asked to testify.

The first part survives the divorce, meaning a defendant can refuse to allow a divorced spouse to testify about things that were said/written during the marriage, but the second part doesn't, i.e. you can't refuse to give testimony about events that occurred or things you saw if you and the defendant are now divorced.

In this case, Cesar claimed his right to exclude marital communication, meaning Christina was not allowed to testify about anything he told her, or wrote to her in confidence. BUT, and it's a big but, he couldn't stop her from testifying about other things related to the case if she so chose (i.e. Her whereabouts on the night of the 14th, her run in with Maria, whether she noticed the car at their house etc.) She's the one who chose to claim the spousal testimony privilege, which is what you saw when her lawyer was in court.

By not divorcing him, she guaranteed that she wouldn't have to testify at all during this trial. Had she been forced to give her testimony, she still could have claimed the 5th if any of her answers would have been self incriminating, and while that would have been good for his defense (reasonable doubt) it would have been a bad thing for her, from a legal perspective, which is why I said that not divorcing him was probably more beneficial to her than to him.

I'm pretty sure the DA expected him to block any testimony about communications, but I have a sneaking suspicion they thought (or at least hoped) she'd cooperate, and at least give some testimony. Otherwise I doubt they would have subpoenaed her.

 

[GeekyGirl]

Another point on the subject of the garage. The DA's theory was that possibly Cesar and Maria were looking at baby clothes in the garage just before he bludgeoned her, yet we're to assume Maria's dead body was in the same garage for two days (at least) and yet no one else in the house (Christina, the little girl, or the dog) noticed her or any odor. :waitasec: MOO

It didn't come up in trial, but I remember hearing early on that they thought he wrapped the body in something (maybe the pink raft?) and stashed her under the wooden decking of the above ground pool in the backyard (it's pretty close to the garage). Not sure what that's worth, but it's another explanation for moving the dog into the front yard.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Completely agree, ocean. Not many women would've appreciated having their husband's accuser in their home. And a twelve pound crowbar would be nothing to wield for any trained Marine. I still would like to know, however, why Cesar would have had to use it as in most cases where there is a relationship, strangulation is more common. On the other hand, it is more understandable that a woman would've picked up the first available weapon. MOO

I don't know of such woman and especially if that wife absolutely thought this woman had ruined her marriage and husband's career and their life.

I am puzzled by that too Panthera but what doesn't puzzle me about this case? LOL! From what has been said Cesar was a very physically fit Marine...excelling in competitions...great PT scores. He could have easily strangled the life out of a pregnant woman which is what most men do leaving no blood bath to clean up in record time either.

That is another thing that nags at me. If they don't know exactly when Maria was killed how can they say with certainty she had nothing to do with this?

But a woman would want to have an equalizer so that they wouldn't have to fight up close with the victim. We see where women will kill their husbands by bludgeoning them to death. Very few women killers want to actually overcome their victim on their own without a weapon of some sort.

IMO

 

[GeekyGirl]

I just wish there had been definitive concrete evidence tying Cesar to the homicide itself. Because they really couldn't link him to it, I will always wonder if the right one is in prison. Although if it is his choice to protect her (the mother of his child), he has resigned himself to prison life.

I just keeping thinking how would a wife react if they walked into their own home and found the woman inside who had accused their husband of not only raping them but also saying she was carrying his child.

I think even a nonviolent woman would erupt into an uncontrollable rage. Doing something horrendous that they never would normally do.

I didn't buy Dewey's spiel that Christina couldn't swing a 12 pound crowbar. My goodness I use a sledge hammer sometimes that weighs more than that and I am 63 years old. lol Dewey conveniently tried to make Christina into a weakling even though female Marines have to meet physical requirements every year just like the male Marines do.

I really wish the trial had been cut and dried. Simple with all questions answered or at least a lot of them and that didn't leave me with doubts.

I am not sure I will ever feel I know the real truth in this case.

IMO

Thank you, you just put into words exactly what I've been thinking, and better then I ever could.

 

[panthera]

It didn't come up in trial, but I remember hearing early on that they thought he wrapped the body in something (maybe the pink raft?) and stashed her under the wooden decking of the above ground pool in the backyard (it's pretty close to the garage). Not sure what that's worth, but it's another explanation for moving the dog into the front yard.

I remember that also, however, that has it's arguments also, imo. He had his friend out there in the back yard after he bought the supplies for the fire pit, correct? Even if he didn't, moving the child's swing and the dog to the front yard would be even more of a red flag if I lived in the house and I certainly would've questioned why that would be necessary just to dig the fire pit. MOO

 

[GeekyGirl]

I don't know of such woman and especially if that wife absolutely thought this woman had ruined her marriage and husband's career and their life.

I am puzzled by that too Panthera but what doesn't puzzle me about this case? LOL! From what has been said Cesar was a very physically fit Marine...excelling in competitions...great PT scores. He could have easily strangled the life out of a pregnant woman which is what most men do leaving no blood bath to clean up in record time either.

That is another thing that nags at me. If they don't know exactly when Maria was killed how can they say with certainty she had nothing to do with this?

But a woman would want to have an equalizer so that they wouldn't have to fight up close with the victim. We see where women will kill their husbands by bludgeoning them to death. Very few women killers want to actually overcome their victim on their own without a weapon of some sort.

IMO

I agree about him not needing a weapon, which is why, in my mind, if they had been able to put the crowbar in his hands, I probably would have agreed that there was a premeditation element. In the heat of passion it seems more reasonable to me that a person who so clearly outmatched his victim physically would instinctively used his hands rather than take the time to pick up a weapon. Strangulation, IMO, is a much more comfortable fit in that scenario ("shut her up"). But taking even a few seconds to stop and pick up a weapon, and then swing a metal bar at her head? Again, IMO, that smacks as deciding to kill her, and formulating a plan to do so (in other words, premeditation). I can see where YMMV on this one, but that was my reasoning on the whole thing.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

It didn't come up in trial, but I remember hearing early on that they thought he wrapped the body in something (maybe the pink raft?) and stashed her under the wooden decking of the above ground pool in the backyard (it's pretty close to the garage). Not sure what that's worth, but it's another explanation for moving the dog into the front yard.

But if the drag marks could still be seen almost a month later leading from the garage to the firepit surely the drag marks would still be there if he drug her body and hid it under the pool.

I think her body lay where she died in the garage for two days and then he or she or both of them drug her out and buried her.

IMO

 

[GeekyGirl]

I remember that also, however, that has it's arguments also, imo. He had his friend out there in the back yard after he bought the supplies for the fire pit, correct? Even if he didn't, moving the child's swing and the dog to the front yard would be even more of a red flag if I lived in the house and I certainly would've questioned why that would be necessary just to dig the fire pit. MOO

Yes, but if you look at the aerial views of the house, the pool is some distance from the fire pit, and sits just outside the back of the garage. If the pool is like most above ground types, it probably has wooden skirting around the whole thing with an access panel for the pump. IMO you could easily fit a body in that space, and close the access panel so it's out of plain sight. *sigh* just another question we'll never know the answer to, and IMO it still wouldn't explain Christina's claimed lack of knowledge, given all the other evidence.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I agree about him not needing a weapon, which is why, in my mind, if they had been able to put the crowbar in his hands, I probably would have agreed that there was a premeditation element. In the heat of passion it seems more reasonable to me that a person who so clearly outmatched his victim physically would instinctively used his hands rather than take the time to pick up a weapon. Strangulation, IMO, is a much more comfortable fit in that scenario ("shut her up"). But taking even a few seconds to stop and pick up a weapon, and then swing a metal bar at her head? Again, IMO, that smacks as deciding to kill her, and formulating a plan to do so (in other words, premeditation). I can see where YMMV on this one, but that was my reasoning on the whole thing.

See I see the opposite. I have unfortunately known people in a fit of temper that will pick up an object and swing it or throw it at someone. Yes, deadly objects that could cause death or serious injury. I don't see this as a premeditated act but a reactionary act to a very heated situation. It is like a heated argument ensued to fever pitch in the garage and the crowbar was right close by and in a fit of rage they picked it up and swung it.

It is like whomever did this exploded in heated passion and swung one blow and then stopped when they realized what they had done.


IMO

 

[GeekyGirl]

But if the drag marks could still be seen almost a month later leading from the garage to the firepit surely the drag marks would still be there if he drug her body and hid it under the pool.

I think her body lay where she died in the garage for two days and then he or she or both of them drug her out and buried her.

IMO

Just to play Devil's advocate, I'd venture to say that he was probably strong enough to carry the body the short distance to the pool, and I can't recall them saying exactly where the drag marks started and/or ended. IIRC we got a good bit of rain between the 14th and the 16th, so it's hard to say how definined the drag marks would have been. Again, I don't care where the body was in the interim, all the other evidence should have clued Christina in to the fact that something was amiss, that is, assuming she didn't already know.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Just to play Devil's advocate, I'd venture to say that he was probably strong enough to carry the body the short distance to the pool, and I can't recall them saying exactly where the drag marks started and/or ended. IIRC we got a good bit of rain between the 14th and the 16th, so it's hard to say how definined the drag marks would have been. Again, I don't care where the body was in the interim, all the other evidence should have clued Christina in to the fact that something was amiss, that is, assuming she didn't already know.

It is listed in the Lauterback lawsuit. I am sure they have photos of the crime scene showing the drag marks coming from the garage to the firepit.

I dont think he picked her up. I think he drug her out of the garage to the place she was buried and imo he had help.

IMO

 

[GeekyGirl]

See I see the opposite. I have unfortunately known people in a fit of temper that will pick up an object and swing it or throw it at someone. I don't see this as a premeditated act but a reactionary act to a very heated situation. It is like a heated argument ensued to fever pitch in the garage and the crowbar was right close by and in a fit of rage they picked it up and swung it.

It is like whomever did this exploded in heated passion and swung one blow and then stopped when they realized what they had done.


IMO

I can see both sides, and I'm certainly not arguing that your POV doesn't have merit. My opinion is based on the fact that all Marines, even POG's, are trained fighters. Hand to hand combat is an essential part of their training, and is their first "go-to" in close quarters scenarios. It's been my experience that they tend to use their fists and hands when in heated situations (domestic disputes, bar fights) and weapons when they intend to cause major harm (i.e. The Gould case, which I realize isn't exactly comparable. I worked in the ER at the Naval Hospital on base for several years, and I've seen first hand the kind of damage these guys are capable of causing without a weapon of any kind *shudders*.

 

[panthera]

Yes, but if you look at the aerial views of the house, the pool is some distance from the fire pit, and sits just outside the back of the garage. If the pool is like most above ground types, it probably has wooden skirting around the whole thing with an access panel for the pump. IMO you could easily fit a body in that space, and close the access panel so it's out of plain sight. *sigh* just another question we'll never know the answer to, and IMO it still wouldn't explain Christina's claimed lack of knowledge, given all the other evidence.

I believe another very important element would be determining which direction the blow came from, whether the attacker was behind Maria or facing her. Of course, unfortuntately that hasn't been established. MOO

 

[GeekyGirl]

It is listed in the Lauterback lawsuit. I am sure they have photos of the crime scene showing the drag marks coming from the garage to the firepit.

I dont think he picked her up. I think he drug her out of the garage to the place she was buried and imo he had help.

IMO

No worries I actually lean towards the garage theory too, but as I said, IMO where she was is somewhat irrelevant... If Christina wasn't there when she died, there's still no excuse for her claimed ignorance about what went down.

 

[GeekyGirl]

I believe another very important element would be determining which direction the blow came from, whether the attacker was behind Maria or facing her. Of course, unfortuntately that hasn't been established. MOO

Very true, and that's just another reminder of how very little we know about what happened that day. I'm just not sure that, if I had been a juror, I would have been comfortable saying that I beleived beyond a readonable doubt, he was guilty of the charges at hand. Don't get me wrong, I think he's guilty of a lot of things, and culpable in her death, even he didn't swing the crowbar, but guilty of what he was charged with? Eh... There's doubt.

 

[panthera]

Very true, and that's just another reminder of how very little we know about what happened that day. I'm just not sure that, if I had been a juror, I would have been comfortable saying that I beleived beyond a readonable doubt, he was guilty of the charges at hand. Don't get me wrong, I think he's guilty of a lot of things, and culpable in her death, even he didn't swing the crowbar, but guilty of what he was charged with? Eh... There's doubt.

I definitely am in agreement with that! Just to add, Maria's body was disposed of in an atrocious manner but that isn't what Cesar was on trial for. I feel the jury may have been so appalled by the aftermath that affected their decision on premeditation in order to convict him of her murder. I still believe McNeil has a point about the absence of 2nd degree murder charges. We'll just have to wait and see what an appellate court thinks. MOO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I can see both sides, and I'm certainly not arguing that your POV doesn't have merit. My opinion is based on the fact that all Marines, even POG's, are trained fighters. Hand to hand combat is an essential part of their training, and is their first "go-to" in close quarters scenarios. It's been my experience that they tend to use their fists and hands when in heated situations (domestic disputes, bar fights) and weapons when they intend to cause major harm (i.e. The Gould case, which I realize isn't exactly comparable. I worked in the ER at the Naval Hospital on base for several years, and I've seen first hand the kind of damage these guys are capable of causing without a weapon of any kind *shudders*.

I really think that has always been overstated. When they first go in they all go to boot camp which mostly consists of endurance and discipline training and then they go for a 30 day training on how to shoot and take care of their weapons and learning how to survive by themselves in remote areas and find their way back to camp without a map etc.

But Cesar wasn't a grunt (infantry). He had a desk job and only had to meet physical requirements once a year and go to the rifle range once a year.

Now sure they get into major fist fights. Usually alcohol related, women and bar hopping. And some of the grunts can be scary dudes. Anyone that chooses infantry as their MOS is a little touched in the head to me. J/K lol I guess they like the hand to hand combat and our military does need these type in the armed services.

IMO