Christmas Day Significance

[rashomon]

The R's house was close enough to others in the neighborhood that with lights on in the house that time of night, someone might have been identifiable if seen moving around the house, so it makes sense for the perp to have lights out and be using a flashlight for navigation. What are the chances an intruder would have known where to find the R's flashlight to use for that purpose, as opposed to the R's knowing exactly.

The flashlight is a definite bugaboo of a clue, but it points to the R's much more definitively than an intruder IMO.

It is somewhere in the back of my mind that LE, in the interviews, even managed to extract the info from the Ramseys that they kept a flashlight in a drawer in the wet bar area on the ground floor; they were also shown a crime scene picture where that drawer was found open and empty.

It is extremely unlikely that in the Ramsey home with its warren of rooms, an intruder would just 'happen' to find the right drawer. ...
That flashlight was the Ramseys', no question.
I'm wavering whether they left it on the kitchen counter accidentally or intentionally to mislead LE, but tend more to it having been a purposeful act.
I think the Ramseys did use the flashlight because they didn't want to put the full lights on, and later set it up as a red herring to make LE think the "small foreign faction" had used it.

 

[Tadpole12]

The R's house was close enough to others in the neighborhood that with lights on in the house that time of night, someone might have been identifiable if seen moving around the house, so it makes sense for the perp to have lights out and be using a flashlight for navigation. What are the chances an intruder would have known where to find the R's flashlight to use for that purpose, as opposed to the R's knowing exactly.

The flashlight is a definite bugaboo of a clue, but it points to the R's much more definitively than an intruder IMO.

Heyya Midwest mama,

I'm not sure how relieable the bluecrab source would be,
(Whatever happened to bluecrab?) but wouldn't height be distinguishable, ie adults vs a child?, from the neighbours' vantage point?


http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682525/What Neighbors Reported

Bluecrab Account. According to Internet poster [ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1114786&postcount=29"]Bluecrab[/ame] "Gibbons, from his own kitchen window, observed the "late-night" movement of people in the Ramsey kitchen who, according to Gibbons, seemed to be creeping around in the semi-darkness so as not to awaken others in the house. Gibbons also saw a light on in the butler's kitchen at about 12 midnight, the first time he had ever seen that light burning." No source is provided for this information.

 

[cynic]

It is somewhere in the back of my mind that LE, in the interviews, even managed to extract the info from the Ramseys that they kept a flashlight in a drawer in the wet bar area on the ground floor; they were also shown a crime scene picture where that drawer was found open and empty.

TOM HANEY: Okay. The next group of photos and these are not numbered --
PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
TOM HANEY: -- but they show flashlight.
PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
TOM HANEY: A black metal string light type --
PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
TOM HANEY: -- flashlight. Do you recognize that?
PATSY RAMSEY: It looks similar to one that John Andrew gave John for Christmas, birthday or something.
TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you recall when it was he gave it to him or...
PATSY RAMSEY: Not exactly, unh-unh (no). Although it looks kind of dirty there. I mean, if I remember --
TOM HANEY: It looks different?
PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Describe how it looks different.
PATSY RAMSEY: Well, the one that I remember John having was pretty slick black, you 1 know, and that looks kind of smudgy or gray or something.
TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. That's been processed, so it has been changed.
PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, okay.
TRIP DeMUTH: Other than that, do you notice any differences from...
PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
TRIP DeMUTH: That's similar to the one that John Andrew gave John?
PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, uh-huh (yes).
TRIP DeMUTH: And I think last time when you were here on last April --
PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
TRIP DeMUTH: -- you said where that was stored.
PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
TRIP DeMUTH: And I wanted to clarify that a little bit. Do you remember where it was stored?
PATSY RAMSEY: Well, the best I recall it was in like one of those junk drawers there in the bar area.
TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. And I wanted to flip back to photo, right there.
PATSY RAMSEY: Right, yeah, one of those drawers.
TRIP DeMUTH: One of the drawers that's depicted in 380?
PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
TRIP DeMUTH: Do you remember which drawer?
PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I, I most recently remember it being, you know, right in this drawer. TRIP DeMUTH: The drawer that is open?
PATSY RAMSEY: That's open there, yeah.
TRIP DeMUTH: And that's the wet bar that's by the spiral staircase, right?
PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Okay. And now looking at photo 380, you don't see a flashlight in there, right?
PATSY RAMSEY: Correct.
TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
PATSY RAMSEY: Where was this flashlight found?
TRIP DeMUTH: Well, do you remember when you came in on, in April, they showed you a picture of the flashlight? Do you recall that? You may not.
PATSY RAMSEY: No, not exactly.
TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. This was on the kitchen counter?
PATSY RAMSEY: Oh.

Patsy Ramsey, 1998 Interview

 

[DeeDee249]

Heyya Midwest mama,

I'm not sure how relieable the bluecrab source would be,
(Whatever happened to bluecrab?) but wouldn't height be distinguishable, ie adults vs a child?, from the neighbours' vantage point?


http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682525/What Neighbors Reported

Bluecrab Account. According to Internet poster Bluecrab "Gibbons, from his own kitchen window, observed the "late-night" movement of people in the Ramsey kitchen who, according to Gibbons, seemed to be creeping around in the semi-darkness so as not to awaken others in the house. Gibbons also saw a light on in the butler's kitchen at about 12 midnight, the first time he had ever seen that light burning." No source is provided for this information.

I highly doubt that anyone casually noticing the "moving lights" would determine whether the height of the lights indicated whether the person was an adult or child. Or to make the same determination about seeing figures moving about in the darkness. Safe to say the person had to at least come up to the window. The plural "people" indicates there was more than one- and as no definite number was mentioned, I'd say there was at least 2. There were THREE unusual events with lights in the home- the moving lights in the kitchen, the butler's pantry light which was ON, when it was always OFF, and the lamp in the den, which was OFF when it was always ON.

 

[KarenUK]

To me, the fact that this happened at Christmas points more to Patsy than to John.
As previously stated, the holidays are a very stressful time for familys - and I think Patsy, under all the stress of her illness etc couldn't cope with Jonbenet refusing to wear matching outfits and her so-so attitude to her 'big' Christmas present (The My Twinn Doll) that Patsy obviously had such high hopes for, and lost her temper.

 

[midwest mama]

TOM HANEY: Okay. The next group of photos and these are not numbered --
PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
TOM HANEY: -- but they show flashlight.
PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
TOM HANEY: A black metal string light type --
PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
TOM HANEY: -- flashlight. Do you recognize that?
PATSY RAMSEY: It looks similar to one that John Andrew gave John for Christmas, birthday or something.
TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you recall when it was he gave it to him or...
PATSY RAMSEY: Not exactly, unh-unh (no). Although it looks kind of dirty there. I mean, if I remember --
TOM HANEY: It looks different?
PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Describe how it looks different.
PATSY RAMSEY: Well, the one that I remember John having was pretty slick black, you 1 know, and that looks kind of smudgy or gray or something.
TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. That's been processed, so it has been changed.
PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, okay.
TRIP DeMUTH: Other than that, do you notice any differences from...
PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
TRIP DeMUTH: That's similar to the one that John Andrew gave John?
PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, uh-huh (yes).
TRIP DeMUTH: And I think last time when you were here on last April --
PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
TRIP DeMUTH: -- you said where that was stored.
PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
TRIP DeMUTH: And I wanted to clarify that a little bit. Do you remember where it was stored?
PATSY RAMSEY: Well, the best I recall it was in like one of those junk drawers there in the bar area.
TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. And I wanted to flip back to photo, right there.
PATSY RAMSEY: Right, yeah, one of those drawers.
TRIP DeMUTH: One of the drawers that's depicted in 380?
PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
TRIP DeMUTH: Do you remember which drawer?
PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I, I most recently remember it being, you know, right in this drawer. TRIP DeMUTH: The drawer that is open?
PATSY RAMSEY: That's open there, yeah.
TRIP DeMUTH: And that's the wet bar that's by the spiral staircase, right?
PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Okay. And now looking at photo 380, you don't see a flashlight in there, right?
PATSY RAMSEY: Correct.
TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
PATSY RAMSEY: Where was this flashlight found?
TRIP DeMUTH: Well, do you remember when you came in on, in April, they showed you a picture of the flashlight? Do you recall that? You may not.
PATSY RAMSEY: No, not exactly.
TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. This was on the kitchen counter?
PATSY RAMSEY: Oh.

Patsy Ramsey, 1998 Interview

It seems odd to me that Patsy would ask where the flashlight was found. If she had been the one to have handled it, wiped it off, and left it on the kitchen counter, would she have asked where it was found?

 

[Chiquita71]

Although technically JBR was probably killed in the early morning hours of 12-26, for all intents and purposes she was killed on Christmas night. Is this fact significant to understanding the motivations for her murder? I mean, she could have been killed any time during the year, but when is she killed? Christmas night. I cannot help but feel that there is importance to this. Does anyone else here feel the same way?

If you do think it is significant, then please state why you think it is significant.

I have my own thoughts on to why the day she was killed was significant but I am going to hold them for now until I hear what others here say about it.

RespectfullyQuoted Anyhoo. Thank you for asking this question. I think Patsy found it significant.

I recently re-read a statement where Patsy is to have said(to the effect) her choosing the color purple had brought death into their Christmas celebration. Purple being an Easter color and represented Christ's death.

Patsy is said to have also stated that upon seeing a doll(that was supposed to look like Jonbenet)in its box-it made her think it looked like the doll was in a coffin-to the effect that she could now see it as a sign.

Did Patsy believe what she stated? The doll in the box is a premonition, a sign or clue of an event to come. But the statement that by her choosing the color of decoration she had invited/caused(?) the death of her daughter is not just a premonition but is stating she:

"knew she was inviting death"

"has that power"/it is possible with her choosing of something as seemingly mundane as holiday decorations she can invoke/cause events to occur, such as the death of a person/loved one"

If it is true that Patsy stated these beliefs then it is she who puts significance to Jonbenet dying on Christmas. She is saying it is she who invited this death. Later, she is said to have stated to a friend/neighbor "we didn't mean for this to happen." Which seems contradictory to the other statements. Maybe.

By "choosing purple" Patsy "knew" she had invited death in, maybe looking for a reason it happened? After the fact? It is incredible if she did think it before Jonbenet's death and telling if this was her thought process afterward. A woman looking back to see "where things went wrong" and Patsy zones in on the colors she chose and a flash premonition of her daughter in a coffin.

Or we take her at face value and believe that she did bring about(or believed she had brought about)the death of her daughter on Christmas because of her decorations, had invited death. And that she had a flash of her daughter deceased in her coffin and that she felt (now)it had been letting her know what was about to happen.

Strange theology. :twocents:

This is my speculation on a (now)historical news event. Thank you for indulging my decade late to the party questions.

 

[Anyhoo]

RespectfullyQuoted Anyhoo. Thank you for asking this question. I think Patsy found it significant.

I recently re-read a statement where Patsy is to have said(to the effect) her choosing the color purple had brought death into their Christmas celebration. Purple being an Easter color and represented Christ's death.

Patsy is said to have also stated that upon seeing a doll(that was supposed to look like Jonbenet)in its box-it made her think it looked like the doll was in a coffin-to the effect that she could now see it as a sign.

Did Patsy believe what she stated? The doll in the box is a premonition, a sign or clue of an event to come. But the statement that by her choosing the color of decoration she had invited/caused(?) the death of her daughter is not just a premonition but is stating she:

"knew she was inviting death"

"has that power"/it is possible with her choosing of something as seemingly mundane as holiday decorations she can invoke/cause events to occur, such as the death of a person/loved one"

If it is true that Patsy stated these beliefs then it is she who puts significance to Jonbenet dying on Christmas. She is saying it is she who invited this death. Later, she is said to have stated to a friend/neighbor "we didn't mean for this to happen." Which seems contradictory to the other statements. Maybe.

By "choosing purple" Patsy "knew" she had invited death in, maybe looking for a reason it happened? After the fact? It is incredible if she did think it before Jonbenet's death and telling if this was her thought process afterward. A woman looking back to see "where things went wrong" and Patsy zones in on the colors she chose and a flash premonition of her daughter in a coffin.

Or we take her at face value and believe that she did bring about(or believed she had brought about)the death of her daughter on Christmas because of her decorations, had invited death. And that she had a flash of her daughter deceased in her coffin and that she felt (now)it had been letting her know what was about to happen.

Strange theology. :twocents:

This is my speculation on a (now)historical news event. Thank you for indulging my decade late to the party questions.

Thanks for responding to my post.

I believe there is significance to this crime happening on Christmas Day and that understanding how it is significant would lead to solving who did it and why.

I take PR saying "we didn't intend for this to happen" as her saying that both JR and PR knew that JBR was involved in something that she should not have been involved in, something bad, and that they either allowed her to be involved in it or they did not stop it. Whatever it was, they did not believe it would lead to the sudden death of their daughter but it did.

As for the purple theme of the Christmas celebration, that raised a red flag for me because of something I had read on another web site, about how some families do not practice Christmas as most people do, celebrating Christ's birth, but instead celebrate Christ's death. I am suspicious that the Ramsey family may not have been what they appeared to be on the outside.

Edit: The bad thing the R's had their daughter involved in may have been the child beauty pageants.

 

[dodie20]

I've been thinking about this thread, because a lot of things seem to lead back to it. For starters, it Was Christmas. Next, the Rs, made a point, (the decision, according to JR), to claim Christmas as JB's death. Another thing that has been nagging at me, is JB's bracelet. From what I understand, it was a new Christmas gift and was inscribed with JonBenet on one side, and 12/25/96, on the other. For some reason, this bugs me. She was murdered while wearing a bracelet, with her death date pre-inscribed ? What are the odds? Yes, it may be a coincidence, but it's creepy. Also, there's the issue of the Christmas doll. Did PR really say that when she 1st saw it, she had a premonition of JB in a coffin? Even if she Did say this, I'm not convinced she really thought it, more like said it for dramatic effect, but still, it's alarming. I know this would all point to some kind of premeditation, which doesn't seem to be the case, but I've never ruled it out. Also, BR said that someone 'quietly' took JB, so if that's true, it points away from a rage, IMO. In the Barbara Walters interview, PR did say that she knew this was a premeditated murder. So, do any of you think this is a possibility?

 

[dodie20]

Didn't Jonbenet hold the title of 'little Miss Christmas'? And was this the crown she was buried with? How ghastly for 'Little Miss Christmas', to be murdered on Christmas. All of this could be coincidence based on timing, but it seems, IMO, that the Rs Wanted JB's death to be associated with Christmas.

 

[UKGuy]

I've been thinking about this thread, because a lot of things seem to lead back to it. For starters, it Was Christmas. Next, the Rs, made a point, (the decision, according to JR), to claim Christmas as JB's death. Another thing that has been nagging at me, is JB's bracelet. From what I understand, it was a new Christmas gift and was inscribed with JonBenet on one side, and 12/25/96, on the other. For some reason, this bugs me. She was murdered while wearing a bracelet, with her death date pre-inscribed ? What are the odds? Yes, it may be a coincidence, but it's creepy. Also, there's the issue of the Christmas doll. Did PR really say that when she 1st saw it, she had a premonition of JB in a coffin? Even if she Did say this, I'm not convinced she really thought it, more like said it for dramatic effect, but still, it's alarming. I know this would all point to some kind of premeditation, which doesn't seem to be the case, but I've never ruled it out. Also, BR said that someone 'quietly' took JB, so if that's true, it points away from a rage, IMO. In the Barbara Walters interview, PR did say that she knew this was a premeditated murder. So, do any of you think this is a possibility?

dodie20,
Oh yes, particularly if others were involved. Also if events of 12/23 are much more serious than an accidental 911 call appears to display.

From memory the bracelet was a gift from Nedra. That JonBenet wore it to the White's party suggests to me Patsy supervised JonBenet bathing and dressing for the White's.

The gold cross necklace JonBenet was wearing, was I think a gift from Patsy. Patsy purchased these for other members of her family.

So in a sense I interpret this as Patsy getting the bling out for JonBenet.


Another interpretation of the dates signifigance is simply Patsy's sense of the theatrical, her awareness of a risen christ. So the date of her death was retrofitted?

It looks more like Patsy wanting a tragic narrative to supplement a little girls abuse filled life that to date boasted pageant crowns. The latter, JonBenet’s Little Miss Christmas tiara, won during December’s pageant competition in Denver, was placed on her head by Pamela Paugh.

So it seems all the Paugh family shared this vision of a tragic pageant princess, taken from them on Christmas Day?

.

 

[midwest mama]

dodie20,
Oh yes, particularly if others were involved. Also if events of 12/23 are much more serious than an accidental 911 call appears to display.

From memory the bracelet was a gift from Nedra. That JonBenet wore it to the White's party suggests to me Patsy supervised JonBenet bathing and dressing for the White's.

The gold cross necklace JonBenet was wearing, was I think a gift from Patsy. Patsy purchased these for other members of her family.

So in a sense I interpret this as Patsy getting the bling out for JonBenet.


Another interpretation of the dates signifigance is simply Patsy's sense of the theatrical, her awareness of a risen christ. So the date of her death was retrofitted?

It looks more like Patsy wanting a tragic narrative to supplement a little girls abuse filled life that to date boasted pageant crowns. The latter, JonBenet’s Little Miss Christmas tiara, won during December’s pageant competition in Denver, was placed on her head by Pamela Paugh.

So it seems all the Paugh family shared this vision of a tragic pageant princess, taken from them on Christmas Day?

.

Agree. Very, very possible it was premeditated.

Bracelet was purchased by Patsy, and cross was a gift from Aunt Pam. Ref here: http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-jewelry.htm

Patsy gave her the bracelet, get this, on the day of their Christmas Party, the 23rd.

Couple of other odd Christmas things: Large Bloomies/Wednesday (the 25th). First scheduled gathering with JR's kids for a celebration in Michigan over this holiday season.

 

[midwest mama]

1. Patsy chose purple (usually signifies the Easter season, Christ's
resurrection)
for her Christmas color.
2. Patsy wails over JB: Jesus...raise my daughter!
3. Patsy orders a My Twinn doll for JB, which give her premonition of JB in
coffin. (Doll had to be specially ordered ahead, photo provided to
maker). JB not thrilled with doll.
4. Cards found given to Patsy and JR (his was on his desk) from JB: "The
best gift I can give you is me."
5. Bracelet, engraved with Christmas date - not birthdate, as some child ID
types (which it was said to be) might have.
6. Bracelet gift given on Dec 23 party day - not held as Christmas gift,
which was the inscribed date on the bracelet.
7. JB found in Bloomies with Wednesday (the 25th that year).
8. Patsy's comments about JB being in heaven, wouldn't have to know the
pain of losing a child, and probably wouldn't be long before she would join
JB. Was Patsy already suspecting her cancer would return, or
contemplating suicide because of her pathetic home life with her kids?

An odd thought -- we heard about Patsy getting a bike from JR, but is there any information about what Patsy gave to JR as a gift?? Could she have been planning on giving JB as a 'gift' to JR - to make up for her inadequacy as a sexual partner, to try to put JB ahead of Elizabeth in JR's heart because he so openly mourned and grieved for Elizabeth? Did she choose purple for that Christmas color as a sign of JB's "Death of Innocence", becoming a "gift" for JR that Christmas? Was the doll, in her white clothing, supposed to serve as a permanent reminder that JB's purity was to be gone that Christmas?

But as the "gift" was unwrapped, did things go awry? Did Patsy mix too many pills with her wine in an attempt to make everything tolerable. Did JR find too much pleasure in his gift and lose control of himself? No need to have to cover for Burke if this was the case. They would have only needed to cover for each other. Forever.

 

[DeeDee249]

I've been thinking about this thread, because a lot of things seem to lead back to it. For starters, it Was Christmas. Next, the Rs, made a point, (the decision, according to JR), to claim Christmas as JB's death. Another thing that has been nagging at me, is JB's bracelet. From what I understand, it was a new Christmas gift and was inscribed with JonBenet on one side, and 12/25/96, on the other. For some reason, this bugs me. She was murdered while wearing a bracelet, with her death date pre-inscribed ? What are the odds? Yes, it may be a coincidence, but it's creepy. Also, there's the issue of the Christmas doll. Did PR really say that when she 1st saw it, she had a premonition of JB in a coffin? Even if she Did say this, I'm not convinced she really thought it, more like said it for dramatic effect, but still, it's alarming. I know this would all point to some kind of premeditation, which doesn't seem to be the case, but I've never ruled it out. Also, BR said that someone 'quietly' took JB, so if that's true, it points away from a rage, IMO. In the Barbara Walters interview, PR did say that she knew this was a premeditated murder. So, do any of you think this is a possibility?

The date on the bracelet was there simply because it WAS a Christmas gift. It had nothing whatsoever to do with her death and in NO way means that her death was planned. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
As far as Patsy's comments, I believe she said in the Rs book Death of Innocence that when she saw the MyTwinn doll she had custom-ordered for JB that Christmas in the white box it came in, she imagined JB in a coffin.
I do not think this was a premeditated murder AT ALL. The killer would have chosen to be alone completely with JB rather than with the other family members at home. Whether this was an act of rage or a knee-jerk reaction to her scream, her DEATH was unintentional, even though her assault was not.

 

[DeeDee249]

Agree. Very, very possible it was premeditated.

Bracelet was purchased by Patsy, and cross was a gift from Aunt Pam. Ref here: http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-jewelry.htm

Patsy gave her the bracelet, get this, on the day of their Christmas Party, the 23rd.

Couple of other odd Christmas things: Large Bloomies/Wednesday (the 25th). First scheduled gathering with JR's kids for a celebration in Michigan over this holiday season.

I disagree about the premeditation. Obviously Patsy had to have the bracelet engraved previously to have it ready for Christmas, and it isn't unusual at all that she gave it to her a few days early to wear at their party. Patsy liked to show off- and having JB wear her new engraved gold bracelet is perfectly in keeping with this. To tell you the truth, had it been me, I might have given my child a gift early too, if there was a special occasion and I wanted her to be able to wear it. I think too much is being made of the bracelet. It was a gift she was allowed to wear a few days early, nothing more.
The Bloomies being selected with a specific date DOES seem suspicious to me. These were all bundled in a package in correct order, if you have ever seen these novelty panty sets. The "Wednesday" pair is in the center, and you'd either have to remove the other two pairs to get the "Wednesday" pair out, or (if the pouch had an opening all along the top) you'd still have to make a deliberate choice to select that specific pair. It is very like Patsy to want JB to wear the pair with the correct day on them- something I simply cannot see JR or BR or an intruder caring about. The selection of the correct day of the week has Pasty written all over it, and to me, indicated her involvement in the staging. Her FIBERS on the cord, paint tote, tape PROVE it, IMO.
I also see nothing odd about scheduling a Christmas visit with JR's older kids in Charlevoix. Supposedly, Patsy wasn't thrilled about going there the day after Christmas, as they had the Disney cruise coming up and she thought it was too much to have to go there first. It was allegedly JR who wanted to meet up with his older kids at his vacation home on Lake Michigan and Patsy went along with it. So again, nothing about that decision seems fishy to me. JR's older daughter was bring her fiance (now husband) to meet her parents for the first time, so Patsy had that added stress too.

 

[UKGuy]

Agree. Very, very possible it was premeditated.

Bracelet was purchased by Patsy, and cross was a gift from Aunt Pam. Ref here: http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-jewelry.htm

Patsy gave her the bracelet, get this, on the day of their Christmas Party, the 23rd.

Couple of other odd Christmas things: Large Bloomies/Wednesday (the 25th). First scheduled gathering with JR's kids for a celebration in Michigan over this holiday season.

midwest mama,
Thanks for the gift corrections. I was working from memory, at least I got the names right, LOL.

.

 

[UKGuy]

1. Patsy chose purple (usually signifies the Easter season, Christ's
resurrection)
for her Christmas color.
2. Patsy wails over JB: Jesus...raise my daughter!
3. Patsy orders a My Twinn doll for JB, which give her premonition of JB in
coffin. (Doll had to be specially ordered ahead, photo provided to
maker). JB not thrilled with doll.
4. Cards found given to Patsy and JR (his was on his desk) from JB: "The
best gift I can give you is me."
5. Bracelet, engraved with Christmas date - not birthdate, as some child ID
types (which it was said to be) might have.
6. Bracelet gift given on Dec 23 party day - not held as Christmas gift,
which was the inscribed date on the bracelet.
7. JB found in Bloomies with Wednesday (the 25th that year).
8. Patsy's comments about JB being in heaven, wouldn't have to know the
pain of losing a child, and probably wouldn't be long before she would join
JB. Was Patsy already suspecting her cancer would return, or
contemplating suicide because of her pathetic home life with her kids?

An odd thought -- we heard about Patsy getting a bike from JR, but is there any information about what Patsy gave to JR as a gift?? Could she have been planning on giving JB as a 'gift' to JR - to make up for her inadequacy as a sexual partner, to try to put JB ahead of Elizabeth in JR's heart because he so openly mourned and grieved for Elizabeth? Did she choose purple for that Christmas color as a sign of JB's "Death of Innocence", becoming a "gift" for JR that Christmas? Was the doll, in her white clothing, supposed to serve as a permanent reminder that JB's purity was to be gone that Christmas?

But as the "gift" was unwrapped, did things go awry? Did Patsy mix too many pills with her wine in an attempt to make everything tolerable. Did JR find too much pleasure in his gift and lose control of himself? No need to have to cover for Burke if this was the case. They would have only needed to cover for each other. Forever.

midwest mama,
Now most of the above could be simply coincidental. But item 4. well that given the circumstances is lets say, as per your speculation that PR planned to offer JB as some kind of gift to JR, appears more than coincidence?

.

 

[UKGuy]

I disagree about the premeditation. Obviously Patsy had to have the bracelet engraved previously to have it ready for Christmas, and it isn't unusual at all that she gave it to her a few days early to wear at their party. Patsy liked to show off- and having JB wear her new engraved gold bracelet is perfectly in keeping with this. To tell you the truth, had it been me, I might have given my child a gift early too, if there was a special occasion and I wanted her to be able to wear it. I think too much is being made of the bracelet. It was a gift she was allowed to wear a few days early, nothing more.
The Bloomies being selected with a specific date DOES seem suspicious to me. These were all bundled in a package in correct order, if you have ever seen these novelty panty sets. The "Wednesday" pair is in the center, and you'd either have to remove the other two pairs to get the "Wednesday" pair out, or (if the pouch had an opening all along the top) you'd still have to make a deliberate choice to select that specific pair. It is very like Patsy to want JB to wear the pair with the correct day on them- something I simply cannot see JR or BR or an intruder caring about. The selection of the correct day of the week has Pasty written all over it, and to me, indicated her involvement in the staging. Her FIBERS on the cord, paint tote, tape PROVE it, IMO.
I also see nothing odd about scheduling a Christmas visit with JR's older kids in Charlevoix. Supposedly, Patsy wasn't thrilled about going there the day after Christmas, as they had the Disney cruise coming up and she thought it was too much to have to go there first. It was allegedly JR who wanted to meet up with his older kids at his vacation home on Lake Michigan and Patsy went along with it. So again, nothing about that decision seems fishy to me. JR's older daughter was bring her fiance (now husband) to meet her parents for the first time, so Patsy had that added stress too.

DeeDee249,
I would bet the house on this assertion: A Ramsey, with premeditation, planned the molestation of JonBenet on Christmas Night!

The date 12/25/1996 was highly significant for JonBenet's killer, not for us who cannot fathom why.

One of the significant reasons, is I reckon, opportunity, because once on vacation, divorced from their normal abusive surroundings the fetishtic molestation of JonBenet would not be possible!

Your assertion regarding the size-12's is not the only interpretation. It may have been the case that either JR or BR wanted JonBenet to have the same day of the week as the size-6 underwear she wore to the White's.

After all why bother with underwear if you then hide it with longjohns. As I've remarked before the Day Of the Week only mattered to JonBenet's killer, because that person was attempting to present JonBenet as she was dressed at the White's.

If Patsy had redressed JonBenet in those size-12's she would never have told her interviewer that the remaining size-12's were in JonBenet's underwear drawer.

Why because she fetched them, she removed the size-6 pair, she dressed JonBenet in the size-12's, then she removed or hid the remaining size-12's. Patently she is not going to leave them lying around.

So if you wish to claim PR redressed JonBenet in the size-12's, you must explain her version of events about the size-12's as related to the BPD detectives.


.

 

[dodie20]

The date on the bracelet was there simply because it WAS a Christmas gift. It had nothing whatsoever to do with her death and in NO way means that her death was planned. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
As far as Patsy's comments, I believe she said in the Rs book Death of Innocence that when she saw the MyTwinn doll she had custom-ordered for JB that Christmas in the white box it came in, she imagined JB in a coffin.
I do not think this was a premeditated murder AT ALL. The killer would have chosen to be alone completely with JB rather than with the other family members at home. Whether this was an act of rage or a knee-jerk reaction to her scream, her DEATH was unintentional, even though her assault was not.

I agree up to a point, but I'm not all of the way convinced. Reading BR's account of JB being quietly taken, has really made me question the whole rage theory-which is the theory I found most believable. But, although there are some things that point to premeditation, there are others that point to a spontaneous combustion-like PR still wearing the same clothes. I do believe she would have thought about changing at least a couple of times after the W's party. Even in 1996, the average person was aware of certain investigative procedures, and many a criminal knew to wear gloves and burn his clothes after committing a crime. So, I don't know about this. If there was premeditation, I don't think it was a for sure, planned out plot-more on the same line as a suicidal person making preparations...like giving sentimental things away, maybe making arrangements for pets, or mentioning what song he'd like sung at his funeral. But, even though a person is suicidal, it doesn't mean he is going to commit suicide. And I think about PR being so sick and worrying about her cancer coming back. Actually, she may have even accepted that it would return, it was just a matter of when. So, IMO, PR may have dwelled on death more than the average person. Anyway, IMO, if she did think about murder, it may not have been an actual plot, but more of an idea. When I consider motive, I think about mothers who kill themselves and take their children with them. Or mothers who kill children to punish the father. Or mothers who think their children are damaged beyond repair and believe they would be better off with Jesus. So, I'm not really convinced one way or the other. Regardless of everything else though, the garotte was premeditated, so IMO, it's not a stretch to consider that more was premeditated. MOO

 

[dodie20]

I want to clarify something. IMO, a suicidal person may think about suicide and go so far as to think about how, but that doesn't mean he will follow through. IMO, the same might apply to certain homicidal people. Especially, a very physically sick mother who saw her daughter as an extension of herself. I'm not sure a mother like this would see this so much as murder, but instead, more like a partial suicide. Wrong, I know, but irrational minds conjure up irrational ideas. I've read theories that suggest PR may have suffered from munchausen syndrome. I don't thinks so, but IMO, she was an obsessive stage mother, and from what I've read, some of the characteristics of the 2, are similar. In other words, using a child for their own attention and drama and self gratification. PR was the star of this show.