Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #2

Status
Not open for further replies.
If he was caught in a sting trawling slowly after girls, why did he change his MO from the first three victims where it seems much more likely that the CSK happened upon them, rather than following them for an extensive period of time.
I don't believe he was slowly trawling after girls. From what I recall, he drove past once, doubled back, and offered a lift. He might have driven past CG in the opposite direction in the HWY and u-turned at Bay View Tce or Freshwater Tce. She probably wouldn't have noticed. The other two were probably drive by's and there wasn't any stalking involved.

And if there was any change in MO in could be explained that LW was doing a dry run to see if he was under surveillance. Police alledge he had a knife in his car. LW claims it was the size of a nail file. It would be interesting to know the truth.
 
And if there was any change in MO in could be explained that LW was doing a dry run to see if he was under surveillance. Police alledge he had a knife in his car. LW claims it was the size of a nail file. It would be interesting to know the truth.

Yes, interesting. I sure as hell don't drive around with a knife, no matter what the size.
 
Yes, interesting. I sure as hell don't drive around with a knife, no matter what the size.

I do. Either a small pocket knife or knife multi-tool. You never know when you might need it; but then again I've done so since I joined the Army in 1994. Maybe that's why I don't find it strange. My husband always has one too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Yes, interesting. I sure as hell don't drive around with a knife, no matter what the size.
Some people do. I'm interested in how big the knife was. If it was a nail file then LW didn't have a weapon to commit a murder. If it was a pocket knife or bigger, then maybe. He also could have been on a dry test run and unarmed.
 
Some people do. I'm interested in how big the knife was. If it was a nail file then LW didn't have a weapon to commit a murder. If it was a pocket knife or bigger, then maybe. He also could have been on a dry test run and unarmed.

At what point does it move from 'test run' to 'real thing' if he's already alerted police due to his suspicious behaviour over the previous months? Was it months and months of test runs?

Would be good to know whether the police officer he picked up was actively flagging him down as well.
 
Sutton - there is a paragraph in one of the articles you quoted:

Denis Glennon sits in the boardroom of Western Australian Environmental Protection Authority (EPA) where he has just finished a board meeting. As managing director of Environmental Solutions International, a waste processing and disposal company, he was recently appointed to the board of the EPA.

Is that the same board that the creeper from Noel Coward's wake video sat on? The one that tasked Noel with doing his job basically (ie reducing pollution in Cockburn Sound)?

I only know the basic outline of Noel Coward's role in this case. His BF posts are hard to understand and some of the replies are even more confusing. I have not seen the video before, but I just watched the first 12 minutes.

WTH? Why are they reminiscing like he was a martyr? Was this some type of cult? One woman just lovingly recounted 'covering' for him to the police and how her daughter's earliest impression of him was he was the boogeyman.

He served time 18 months for carnal knowledge? What is that? Peeping? You don't serve 18 months for that, even in the US. Molestation?

I am going to have to reply to the EPA creeper comment later--I'm too confused now.
 
Police: We got the information and investigated it.

Bayens: I deny that Police ever told me the findings

Barts: Police never claimed they provided CB with a follow up. They simply said they investigated it.


Hard to know who to believe but suffice to say, CB would have seen a lot of incompetence, agenda following and corruption during his time so it's no surprise that he believes they never followed it up.
BBM ^ It appears to me that WA Police must have told someone ('Sunday Night'?) that CB had been advised of the result of the information he provided to Macro hence his response below?.

2kb95gf.jpg


May 31, 2015: https://au.news.yahoo.com/sunday-ni...with-wa-police-about-claremont-investigation/
 
At what point does it move from 'test run' to 'real thing' if he's already alerted police due to his suspicious behaviour over the previous months? Was it months and months of test runs?

Would be good to know whether the police officer he picked up was actively flagging him down as well.
Every Thurs, Friday, Saturday and Sunday for approximately 9 months Macro followed LW. He left his home at only either 11:50pm or 12:30am on the dot. It was mostly 11:50pm precisely and if not it was 12:30am precisely. No other times. Not 11:40 or 12:17 or 12:21 or 11:15. Just those two times. He'd follow the same routine every night: drive to Claremont, do some laps, drive through HJ's drive thru and get a chocolate shake, then drive to Northbridge. Same route every time. He'd dump his finished shake in the same bin. Then stalk some women. Then back to Claremont.

These weren't dry runs. It's what he did every Thursday, Friday, Sat, Sun for the whole 9 months he was under surveillance. He probably did it for years and years.

If there were dry runs they were when he picked up the decoys. He may have wanted to check and see if the coast was clear. The first decoy he let out and drove off. DM said his body language suggested he was spooked. How true that is we don't know. The second one he was arrested as soon as she jumped in the car. If he had a nail file then he was either having a second dry run to see if the coast is clear or he's not the CSK. If he had a pocket knife or bigger then it changes options and likelihoods.

The stuff he was doing every night is different to the nights he offered girls/decoys lifts and potentially different to the nights the murders took place.
 
BBM ^ It appears to me that WA Police must have told someone ('Sunday Night'?) that CB had been advised of the result of the information he provided to Macro hence his response below?.
Hard to know. But they never say that (in those statements) and CB seems to be responding to those statements. Throw in the journalism and it makes if hard to know what has happened.
 
Consider this:

Police leak to the press LW's identity and information about him in order to make him crack. Police deny making the leaks.

Media approach LW and ask him a series of questions including that he had a knife in his car. LW knows the police won't be able to go back and forth through the press challenging what LW says. So he knows that publicly he can get away with saying the knife he had was equivalent to a nail file.

That's just one of the many different potential scenarios.
 
The stuff he was doing every night is different to the nights he offered girls/decoys lifts and potentially different to the nights the murders took place.

Sorry Bart - what does this part mean?

Do you mean on the nights he offered decoys lifts he left the house at a time other than 11:50pm or 12:30pm and also didn't buy a shake?

Why do you think first decoy he was allowed to drop off safely and second decoy he was arrested as soon as she got in the car? Different commanding officer?
 
Sorry Bart - what does this part mean?

Do you mean on the nights he offered decoys lifts he left the house at a time other than 11:50pm or 12:30pm and also didn't buy a shake?
Nope.

you made an assumption he was doing dry runs every night and i was pointing out that there were only 2 nights that we know of where he got women into his car.

Why do you think first decoy he was allowed to drop off safely and second decoy he was arrested as soon as she got in the car? Different commanding officer?
apparently the first decoy ***** herself and she allegedly felt LW sensed something was wrong and let her out. Macro decided to do another sting and take him out as soon as the decoy got in the car.
 
Deleted.
(Post was regarding WA Police claiming, in a phone call to News 7, that they did follow up with Con Bayens that they had received and looked into his information.)
 
From the first article:

A member of the Macro Taskforce said last week that the suspect, a 42-year-old civil servant, was driving home from work to his parents' house as we spoke. "He is a quiet, introverted, insignificant member of the community and the person we strongly believe is the Claremont serial killer," he said. The vital evidence they need for a conviction is proving elusive, however.
If LW is innocent, his life has been ruined by the CSK/investigation (not to the extent of the girls or their families). He is routinely referred to as insignificant. How humiliating and offensive.

My understanding is that the case against LW was extremely compelling but they just didn't have the smoking gun. Jim Stanbury seems to have been busy behind the scenes for the last 7 years chasing down every alternative theory and come up with nothing.
Jim Stanbury is incompetent and/or corrupt. (I will talk about the lack of evidence in next post.)
(Billywhizz's link: http://m.theaustralian.com.au/news/...in-duty-ccc-told/story-e6frg6pf-1111114984236)

The fact that the murders stopped after LW was identified by police just adds to the compelling case against him.
Agreed. This is a strong point supporting LW as the killer. Although it could be argued the real CSK was freaked out by the general media coverage and let LW take the heat.
 
...I think people have blinkers on if they don't don't think LW is a very strong suspect.

I think most people did. But 18 years is a long time to come up with...large chocolate shakes.

His car was searched-nothing. Even professional detailing will not get every hair.

No one has ever come forward and accused him of trying to assault or entrap them. He has never had a failed abduction attempt (that we know of).

His DNA did not match anything (maybe there is nothing to match, we don't know).

Guys who want to strangle or severely humiliate or degrade girls as part of a sexual fantasy are not interested in a hand job from a prostitute.

Police searched his house (twice?). They did not find enough to incriminate him, but we don't know what they did find.

Lie detector tests do not work. IMO. People who experience high levels of anxiety are really susceptible to failing. Baselines don't work as accurate measures because the test taker knows they are practice questions (no one gets anxious when asked to verify their name or when instructed to provide a false answer). Once again, this part is my opinion.

LW does not match the profile that closely.

LW may be a stalker. But no one stalks 30 women in one night. If a guy follows me for a few blocks, or for 1/4 of a mile, he isn't stalking me. I would say he was following me. This is really common (haha, not saying for me, just for girls in general in a nightclub area). Guys go where they can meet or watch women*. Lots of guys are weird or creepy or awkward*. The Macro taskforce observed many men following women. But LW's routine is hands-down ODD.

I'm not saying LW is or is not guilty. But the police investigation has been so ineffective, I have LW near the bottom of my list.

I do try to keep an open mind, and I reserve the right to consider new arguments and readjust my opinion in the future.
 
I think most people did. But 18 years is a long time to come up with...large chocolate shakes.
They came up with more than that. Everything fit. The only thing they didn't have was the smoking gun (blood or hair trace of the victims).

His car was searched-nothing. Even professional detailing will not get every hair
13 months after the last murder. Not sure how long any hair trace would stay in the car for? Blood would be able to be detected but the CSK likely killed the girls outside the car.

No one has ever come forward and accused him of trying to assault or entrap them. He has never had a failed abduction attempt (that we know of).
This is the biggest flaw in the case against LW. But it is possible he got a 100% hit rate.

His DNA did not match anything (maybe there is nothing to match, we don't know).
We do know that up until now they do not have DNA.

Guys who want to strangle or severely humiliate or degrade girls as part of a sexual fantasy are not interested in a hand job from a prostitute.
All evidence points towards slit throats. Apparently CG was not sexually assaulted and JR's body was too decomposed to determine. I'm not serial killer expert but I don't think it's a stretch that a guy who kills women for sexual gratification without having sex also prefers not to have sex with prostitutes.

Police searched his house (twice?). They did not find enough to incriminate him, but we don't know what they did find.
The search was 13 months after the last murder. They found a receipt for a car detail a couple of days after CG abduction. They also allegedly noticed a tool from a part of a tool set missing that exactly matched injuries that CG sustained.

What they didn't find was any forensic trace or the souvenirs. He likely didn't take the girls to his unit or his parents place. He could have secreted the souvenirs in the middle of the bush somewhere.

It also has to be noted that all the main suspects have been searched and nothing has turned up. Again, these were after an even longer time after LW was searched (years after) when trace evidence was unlikely to be still there.

Lie detector tests do not work. IMO. People who experience high levels of anxiety are really susceptible to failing. Baselines don't work as accurate measures because the test taker knows they are practice questions (no one gets anxious when asked to verify their name or when instructed to provide a false answer). Once again, this part is my opinion.
This is an unknown quantity. Police also could have exaggerated LW's failing. But from what is in DM's book, it is alleged he failed it miserably and that 3rd party psychologists believed his demeanour and behaviour in police interviews was consistent with him being the killer.

LW does not match the profile that closely.
???? He hits it out of the park. Probably the only one closer is Judoman but that's even debatable given LW's behavior and response to police pressure.
 
Lance Williams

Persistence of trace evidence such as hair and clothing fibre

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/lab/fo...ns/fsc/april2009/review/2009_04_review02.htm/



Transfer and Persistence of Hairs

The primary mechanism for the transfer of trace evidence is described by the Locard Exchange Principle (Locard 1930). Although there will always be a transfer of trace evidence, in some instances, the material exchanged may be too small to detect or may be rapidly lost. Numerous authors have addressed the transfer and persistence of fibers in forensic cases, including Kidd and Robertson 1982; Pounds and Smalldon 1975a, 1975b, 1975c; and Robertson et al. 1982.

These authors investigated the mechanisms involved in the transfer of textile fibers and the persistence of the fibers after the transfer occurred. Although these studies primarily involved textile fibers, wool fibers were used in these studies; therefore, the results of these studies also apply to human hair. These authors found that the number of fibers transferred depended on the amount of pressure involved in the contact and the duration of the contact.

With regard to persistence, these authors found that the nature of the recipient garment, the size of the transferred fiber, and the movement of the recipient garment had a dramatic effect. If the garment containing transferred fibers was worn, most fibers were lost rather quickly (within a few hours). If the garment containing transferred fibers was held in a fume hood, the rate at which fibers were lost was much lower.

Gaudette and Tessarolo (1987) stated that many of the variables affecting fiber transfer and persistence were also important in hair transfer and persistence. In order to document some of these variables, they conducted several experiments on hair transfer. They identified two mechanisms of hair transfer: primary and secondary transfer.

Primary transfer can be either direct (from person A’s scalp to another location) or indirect (from person A’s scalp to person A’s environment and then to another location). Secondary transfer is an indirect transfer (from person A’s environment to person B’s environment to person C’s environment). The authors demonstrated that secondary transfer of human scalp hair can and does occur in casework situations and that persistence of the transferred hair is similar to that previously found for fibers by Pounds and Smalldon (1975a, 1975b, 1975c). Robertson and Somerset (1987) conducted a similar study on persistence and found comparable results; that is, most transferred hairs are lost with normal wear after about three hours.

Quill (1985) recovered 81 hairs from his clothing over a 31-day period. Of the hairs that were suitable for microscopic comparison, all had been transferred from family members. Quill concluded that for a foreign hair to be present on clothing, close personal contact is required. Simons (1986) found that although most hairs are removed from clothing during the laundering process, some hairs do remain on clothing and hair transfers can occur as a result of the laundering process.

Peabody et al. (1985) investigated the shedding of hairs into various types of headgear. They found that the number of hairs shed varies with the type of headgear worn and with the individual. They also noted the importance of collecting head-hair combings, because the nature of the hairs shed in their study were more similar to the naturally shed hairs encountered in combings than to the hairs encountered in plucked, known head-hair samples.

Based on these studies, it can be concluded that it is reasonable to find hair evidence in forensic cases. Hair is ubiquitous in the environment and, therefore, may be transferred during a crime. However, it is imperative for proper and timely collection of evidentiary materials, including known hair samples, to occur if hair examinations are going to be valid, reliable, and meaningful.

------------->

Conclusion: LW had his car detailed a couple of days after CG's abduction. His car wasn't forensically examined by police until 13 months after the murder. The chances of any trace evidence from CG or the other two girls is more or less zero.

Perhaps the only other things that could link LW (or any of the other suspects) is the locating of either the murder weapon or the souvenirs taken from the girls. It's reasonable to assume the CSK did not keep these on his property.

All main suspects have been searched and no evidence was found. This does not mean the guilty is not one of the main suspects. In fact, it's likely the CSK is one of the main suspects because the murders stopped.

Lack of physical evidence makes LW no less a suspect than any of the other suspects, all else being equal.
 
Abundance of Sothis. Thank you Thank you Thank you. LOL at all the Anagrams on this thread. I solved this case and it was a crew. Arrests soon I imagine.
 
You said that last time and nothing happened. What makes you think anything will change?

I doubt Jim Stanbury would have been taken off the case if arrests were imminent. Perhaps you're all talk and no action?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Staff online

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
70
Guests online
3,410
Total visitors
3,480

Forum statistics

Threads
594,748
Messages
18,011,117
Members
229,482
Latest member
jp.52203
Back
Top