CO - James Holmes Trial Discussion - Begins April 27, 2015 # 9

[zoey]

Jen's Trial Diaries ‏@TrialDiariesJ · 3m3 minutes ago
JH knew shooting people wasn't right and against the law according to Dr Metzner #theatershooting #theatertrial

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Larry Ryckman ‏@larryryckman · 2m2 minutes ago
He researched other mass murders, including Columbine, focusing on response times. Also was interested in amount of ammo. #theatershooting

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Jen's Trial Diaries ‏@TrialDiariesJ · 3m3 minutes ago
Dr Metzer says the planning of the shooting was well documented and planned out #theatershooting #theatertrial

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 2m2 minutes ago
#theatershooting

JH acknowledged caught/prison. Says it was evil

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7NEWS Denver Channel ‏@DenverChannel · 2m2 minutes ago
Dr. Metzner: #theatershooting gunman said he reviewed other mass murders, including Columbine, for cop response LIVE: http://bit.ly/1DTwGLZ

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Jen's Trial Diaries ‏@TrialDiariesJ · 2m2 minutes ago
JH bought ammo over time to not raise red flags, JH researched other mass murders for police response time (Columbine) #theatershooting

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 2m2 minutes ago
#theatershooting

http://Match.com & Adult Friend Finder, “Will you visit me in prison” brought up. Posted before notebook mailed

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 2m2 minutes ago
#theatershooting

JH set up up incendiary devices to divert police to apt delaying response to theater

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 2m2 minutes ago
#theatershooting

JH said he wanted to delay to kill more people to increase his worth

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CBSDenver ‏@CBSDenver · 1m1 minute ago
Another psychiatrist takes stand in #theatershooting trial http://cbsloc.al/1AY3J79

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 1m1 minute ago
#theatershooting

JH knew he would kill people. Never said he would only wound people in the theater

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Larry Ryckman ‏@larryryckman · 2m2 minutes ago
JH told Metzner that he wanted to delay police arriving at #theatershooting so that he could kill more people

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[cottonweaver]

M: Adult FF - Will u visit me in prison was posted before he posted the notebook to Dr F - prior planning again
M: Apartment booby traps- also attest to delay tactics/diversions and JH stated this was to get more "kills"

(Teed off that he never ref to Adam Lanza and his spreadsheet and aim to score highest in school murder stakes. )

 

[cottonweaver]

Bad news bears - stay away

JH indicated - bad for her to have MEDIA EXPOSURE!!
( Finally we got clear statement from JH that media exposure was expected/wanted - Reid did not seem to make that clear yesterday)

 

[zoey]

The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 2m2 minutes ago
#theatershooting

OPINION: Does this Dr seem so far like he shouldn’t have been discredited? Does he somewhat echo Reid?

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7NEWS Denver Channel ‏@DenverChannel · 2m2 minutes ago
Dr. Metzner: #theatershooting gunman said devices in his apartment were set up to delay police response to theater

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 1m1 minute ago
#theatershooting

Text: when he sent girl text saying he was bad news. Told Dr there would be bad media exposure. He knew right/wrong

Jen's Trial Diaries ‏@TrialDiariesJ · 2m2 minutes ago
JH wanted to increase his worth by killing more people so police response time was important to him #theatershooting #theatertrial

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 2m2 minutes ago
#theatershooting

Body armor purchases - anticipating people aren’t going to be idle and let him shoot. Protected himself from law enforce

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Larry Ryckman ‏@larryryckman · 2m2 minutes ago
Metzner discusses "bad news bear" e-mail from JH to fellow student. "Stay away from me, the floodgates have opened." #theatershooting

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 2m2 minutes ago
#theatershooting

Dr also considered things beyond JH acknowledgment of it being illegal

 

[zoey]

The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 45s45 seconds ago
#theatershooting

Factors Dr found about capacity:

- G-Chat on March 25 w/ex - thinking about doing something evil

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Dr. Jeffrey Metzner: The gunman had the capacity to distinguish right from wrong 7News
a few seconds ago

Dr. Jeffrey Metzner: When his friends told the gunman that he should kill them, he said he couldn't because it would be too personal 7News
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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 2m2 minutes ago
#theatershooting

What he’s thinking about is killing people and it’s against law. Good indication using word “evil” he had capacity

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 1m1 minute ago
#theatershooting

- G-Chat: JH EX says “Why don’t you kill Ben and I” and JH says he can’t do that - too personal
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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 1m1 minute ago
#theatershooting

Capacity to recognize societal right from wrong

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 1m1 minute ago
#theatershooting

NOTE: Ben as referred to in G-Chat was a friend of JH and his ex girlfriend

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[zoey]

Jen's Trial Diaries ‏@TrialDiariesJ · 1m1 minute ago
At time of shooting JH was using the word "evil" and it shows he knows right from wrong #theatershooting #theatertrial

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[cottonweaver]

Delusionals can have capacity & awareness of morality.

G: Did JH have capacity? How did Metzner demonstrate this?
M: March 25th Gmail chat . JH posted to Gargie Datta : "Thinking about doing something evil".... " killing people".. "against the law". So this proves in March 2012 he had capacity, understood morality.
Margie replied - "why don't u kill ben & I then." ( paraphrased)
JH : I can't do that, too personal. ( paraphrased) Metzler says this also goes to his capacity.

 

[Maisiebelle]

Dr Reid has an excellent recollection of his conversations with JH. This Dr takes longer to remember.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[zoey]

Jen's Trial Diaries ‏@TrialDiariesJ · 50s51 seconds ago
JH couldn't shoot his friends because it was too personal and that shows he was clearly thinking things through #theatershooting

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Dr. Jeffrey Metzner said the gunman knew what he was doing was morally wrong 7News
a few seconds ago

Dr. Jeffrey Metzner: The gunman said he put on head phones before walking into theater so he wouldn't hear the "victims" - it wouldn't be personal 7News
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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 1m1 minute ago
#theatershooting

"Last chance to turn back, I don’t know, doubts I guess” - JH knew what he was doing was morally wrong.

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 2m2 minutes ago
#theatershooting

When suiting up, he put on headphones, when asked, he said “So it wouldn’t be personal

When ? further, JH said, “SO there would not be a connection between me and victim”
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Will C. Holden ‏@will_c_holden · 2m2 minutes ago
Metzner on tossed #theatershooting exam: Holmes told ex in Mar. gchat he had "evil" urge 2 kill. That=capacity. Live: http://link.kdvr.com/1Qi65EE

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 2m2 minutes ago
#theatershooting

JH said if he was murdering people it wouldn’t be personal if using music
Specifically used words “Murder” and “Victim bbm

Psychological attempt to divorce himself from considering morality, but Dr said he had the capacity to do so
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Will C. Holden ‏@will_c_holden · 2m2 minutes ago
Metzner on tossed #theatershooting exam: Holmes told ex in gchat he wouldn't kill her & friend. "Too personal." Live: http://link.kdvr.com/1Qi65EE

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Jen's Trial Diaries ‏@TrialDiariesJ · 1m1 minute ago
Killing random people didn't make JH feel like he was murdering #theatershooting #theatertrial

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 1m1 minute ago
#theatershooting

JH also tried to distance morality

- Dyed hair had nothing to do w. Batman movie. He said he didn’t know why. Speculated

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 2m2 minutes ago
#theatershooting

JH speculated did it to separate it from who did it to who he is. Not split personality. just a distancing thing

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 2m2 minutes ago
#theatershooting

Indication to know right from wrong.

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 2m2 minutes ago
#theatershooting

JH statements about child being killed was key for Dr. Once arrested and asked if child was killed

----The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 2m2 minutes ago
#theatershooting

When asked why he asked that, JH said he thought it was wrong, not the right thing to do to kill child


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Northeast Denver ‏@NEDenver · 2m2 minutes ago
Another psychiatrist takes stand in #theatershooting trial http://dlvr.it/B86QBW



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[cottonweaver]

The phone call to Univ Col Psych centre. 10 seconds

JH: " last chance to turn back...doubts I guess" Attests to JH's u'standing of it being morally wrong.


Plus M thinks use of headphones techno music was imp. He asked JH about it. JH said " make it less personal" and " no connection between me & victim, generalised, not like I was actually murdering someone but random crowds"

So this was to to divorce/distance himself from the immorality of murdering- in itself it attests to knowing morality.
(Brilliant Metz makes the connection that Reid didn't which was prob obvious to us WSers. )

Metz found other distancing devices- hair dying as JH had said " operating myself from the person who did this" M says this is not a split personality.
The issue of killing kids was another point significant for M.
Post arrest JH knew killing kids was wrong - said so.

Pre shooting him hiding this plan from Univ Col psychs shows his capacity/knew it was wrong legally. M says this was the place to get help but he didn't want to do that.

 

[zoey]

7NEWS Denver Channel ‏@DenverChannel · 2m2 minutes ago
Dr. Metzner: #Theatershooting gunman said he put on head phones before attack so he wouldn't hear the "victims" - it would be too personal

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 2m2 minutes ago
#theatershooting

Interactions with Fenton/Feinstein - JH didn’t tell them what he was planning. He knew it was legally wrong

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 2m2 minutes ago
#theatershooting

Good chance of being able to talk when go to therapist in nonjudgmental way. They would have locked him up if he told

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 2m2 minutes ago
#theatershooting

JH never told them he had a specific target. June 11th meeting, no mention of mass murder

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 2m2 minutes ago
#theatershooting

Tells them things that make it seem he’s not much as a risk

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 1m1 minute ago
#theatershooting

On June 11 - ?’s to determine levels of stability & future. Asked his plans after dropping out of school

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 1m1 minute ago
#theatershooting

JH said would stay in apartment & in Denver

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[cottonweaver]

Metzner is much more of a "detective" i.e. forensic than Reid IMO. Spots all the significant points.

 

[zoey]

Will C. Holden ‏@will_c_holden · 1m1 minute ago
Metzner on tossed #theatershooting exam: Holmes->red hair≠Joker nod but effort 2 separate self from perpetrator. Live http://link.kdvr.com/1Qi65EE

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 1m1 minute ago
#theatershooting

Notebook - wanted psychiatrists to have this in future to know how to prevent. Relevant to capacity

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 1m1 minute ago
#theatershooting

If capacity lost - you wouldn’t think anything’s wrong so why alert psychs to what to look for in future

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 1m1 minute ago
#theatershooting

Dr says JH angry with Fenton and psychs in general. Fenton - what she did/didn’t do.

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Will C. Holden ‏@will_c_holden · 55s55 seconds ago
Metzner on tossed #theatershooting exam: Holmes withheld info on shooting from some. Shows he knew it = wrong. Live: http://link.kdvr.com/1Qi65EE

---The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 50s50 seconds ago
#theatershooting

JH went to school to see what was wrong with his brain

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[cottonweaver]

Other evidence for JH having had capacity.


M: I asked JH why send the notebook to Dr F.
JH answered: want to help psych in future u'stand s.o. like me prevent this happening in future.

brilliant - Metzler brings up issue of resentment ANGER at Fenton. M guesses he directed anger to Dr Fenton, and against MH professionals.
MH says JH gave his stated reason at outset of meeting psychs was anxiety.

D: why would he tell Fenton he was homicidal? Is that not "insane"?
M: No thats not indicative.

( At last we got there finally with this point re anger re psych s IMO it was to show her her failure and for her rep to be damaged/ about the costs etc. )
"Mind rapist" MH says, was Fenton. Not nice term- pretty angry.

 

[Jinkasaurus]

I'm glad someone is talking about JH's anger at Fenton.

JH was moving his chair back and forth while Dr was talking about his anger at Fenton. I would love to know what was going through JH's mind at that point.

 

[zoey]

Dr. Jeffrey Metzner: The gunman mailed the notebook to Dr. Fenton because he was angry with her
Dr. Jeffrey Metzner: The gunman was angry with Dr. Fenton because she didn't fix his brain 7News

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Jen's Trial Diaries ‏@TrialDiariesJ · 2m2 minutes ago
JH wanted his notebook to be used to help stop others from this kind of act. So he sent to Dr Fenton. #theatershooting #theatertrial

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 2m2 minutes ago
#theatershooting

Context of notebook not shared with Fenton prior to sending it

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Will C. Holden ‏@will_c_holden · 2m2 minutes ago
Metzner on tossed #theatershooting exam: Holmes made notebook 2 prevent shootings. Shows right/wrong knowledge. Live: http://link.kdvr.com/1Qi65EE

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 2m2 minutes ago
#theatershooting

Exchange where JH asks Fenton about philosophy: he was mad she wouldn’t tell

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 2m2 minutes ago
#theatershooting

In notebook, he talks about the "mind rapist”, who he referred to Dr Fenton as. Nothing endearing about that.

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 2m2 minutes ago
#theatershooting

Homicidal thinking was disturbing to JH according to Dr

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Will C. Holden ‏@will_c_holden · 2m2 minutes ago
Metzner on tossed exam: Holmes = angry at Dr Fenton, psych he saw pre-#theatershooting. Called her mind rapist. Live: http://link.kdvr.com/1Qi65EE

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 2m2 minutes ago
#theatershooting

After shootings - he didn’t drive away. Knew he would be arrested. if he didn’t have capacity to know - no reason to stay

-------Larry Ryckman ‏@larryryckman · 2m2 minutes ago
Metzner: "The homicidal thinking was, I think, disturbing to him." #theatershooting

-The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 2m2 minutes ago
#theatershooting

Planning - road stars purchased. But he didn’t use them or try to

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 1m1 minute ago
#theatershooting

NOTE: JH said cops were already out back once he exited theater. He knew it would be a shoot out and decided to stay

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 1m1 minute ago
#theatershooting

Dr: JH did assessment and knew driving away in body armor wouldn’t work, escaping wouldn’t work

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 1m1 minute ago
#theatershooting

He removed guns and stayed

 

[zoey]

Dr. Jeffrey Metzner: The gunman mailed the notebook to Dr. Fenton because he was angry with her
Dr. Jeffrey Metzner: The gunman was angry with Dr. Fenton because she didn't fix his brain 7News

------------------------------------
Jen's Trial Diaries ‏@TrialDiariesJ · 2m2 minutes ago
JH wanted his notebook to be used to help stop others from this kind of act. So he sent to Dr Fenton. #theatershooting #theatertrial

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 2m2 minutes ago
#theatershooting

Context of notebook not shared with Fenton prior to sending it

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Will C. Holden ‏@will_c_holden · 2m2 minutes ago
Metzner on tossed #theatershooting exam: Holmes made notebook 2 prevent shootings. Shows right/wrong knowledge. Live: http://link.kdvr.com/1Qi65EE

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 2m2 minutes ago
#theatershooting

Exchange where JH asks Fenton about philosophy: he was mad she wouldn’t tell

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 2m2 minutes ago
#theatershooting

In notebook, he talks about the "mind rapist”, who he referred to Dr Fenton as. Nothing endearing about that.

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 2m2 minutes ago
#theatershooting

Homicidal thinking was disturbing to JH according to Dr

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Will C. Holden ‏@will_c_holden · 2m2 minutes ago
Metzner on tossed exam: Holmes = angry at Dr Fenton, psych he saw pre-#theatershooting. Called her mind rapist. Live: http://link.kdvr.com/1Qi65EE

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 2m2 minutes ago
#theatershooting

After shootings - he didn’t drive away. Knew he would be arrested. if he didn’t have capacity to know - no reason to stay

-------Larry Ryckman ‏@larryryckman · 2m2 minutes ago
Metzner: "The homicidal thinking was, I think, disturbing to him." #theatershooting

-The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 2m2 minutes ago
#theatershooting

Planning - road stars purchased. But he didn’t use them or try to

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 1m1 minute ago
#theatershooting

NOTE: JH said cops were already out back once he exited theater. He knew it would be a shoot out and decided to stay

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 1m1 minute ago
#theatershooting

Dr: JH did assessment and knew driving away in body armor wouldn’t work, escaping wouldn’t work

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 1m1 minute ago
#theatershooting

He removed guns and stayed

 

[cottonweaver]

M: Also psychiatrically significant to the issue of capacity was JH's action summed post shooting - he didn't drive away. he knew he was gonna be arrested. He didn't leave

( I don't get that but anyway )

previously in the planning he bought the roadsters as he was planning to escape. He didn't tell me HOW he would use them , he said he didn't know. He is using his notes to check now to see if JH mentioned any likely car chase - no JH did not.

Post shooting JH's thoughts on why he stayed there - JH told M: did an assessment and saw cops already there and worked out driving off in all that body armour was not gonna work and best chance of staying alive and thats why he put down his weapon.

( Now i get it - always wondered why . Now i 'd like to know why he did not kill himself like all his school shooter "heroes")

 

[cottonweaver]

I'm glad someone is talking about JH's anger at Fenton.

JH was moving his chair back and forth while Dr was talking about his anger at Fenton. I would love to know what was going through JH's mind at that point.

Glad you noticed that too - he was "rocking" ( self comfort ) doing that on previous days esp when the ex-profs were talking about his shortcomings. Also when a female victim testified - forgotten name.

 

[zoey]

The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 57s58 seconds ago
#theatershooting

He assessed that as his best chance to stay alive. Put weapons down

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Will C. Holden ‏@will_c_holden · 1m1 minute ago
Metzner on tossed exam: Waiting 4 arrest/not fleeing post-#theatershooting shows reason, right/wrong knowledge. Live: http://link.kdvr.com/1Qi65EE

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 2m2 minutes ago
#theatershooting

Took Vicodin before leaving apartment. JH preparing for possibility of being shot or hurt

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Jen's Trial Diaries ‏@TrialDiariesJ · 2m2 minutes ago
JH was angry at Mental health professionals for not fixing him #theatershooting

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Jeffrey Evan Gold ‏@jeffgoldesq · 1m1 minute ago
1st Pych Dr Metzner so far is showing no doubts about JH legal sanity at time of #Theatershooting. Burned pretty bad by Judge ruling guess.

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 2m2 minutes ago
#theatershooting

Seems to me (Jennifer) that this doc is on tap with the prosecution. Wondering why they asked for a do over

--Larry Ryckman ‏@larryryckman · 1m1 minute ago
Metzner: JH took Vicodin before the #theatershooting in case he got shot. He would already have it "on board" and would feel less pain

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 1m1 minute ago
#theatershooting

JH had “vegetative” symptoms of depression/ lack of sleep, loss of appetite

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7NEWS Denver Channel ‏@DenverChannel · 2m2 minutes ago
Dr. Metzner: #theatershooting gunman had capacity to determine right from wrong because he knew that his condition was a problem/wanted help

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Jen's Trial Diaries ‏@TrialDiariesJ · 1m1 minute ago
JH taking Vicodin before shootings also shows JH was using a clear thought process #theatershooting #theatertrial

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Jen's Trial Diaries ‏@TrialDiariesJ · 1m1 minute ago
JH knowing escaping in body armor would be difficult shows a clear thought process #theatershooting #theatertrial

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 58s58 seconds ago
#theatershooting

Dr’s opinion about capacity - Despite mental disease, he had capacity to know right from wrong.

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Jen's Trial Diaries ‏@TrialDiariesJ · 2m2 minutes ago
JH was very depressed according to Metzner #theatershooting #theatertrial

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 2m2 minutes ago
#theatershooting

Dr says he’s extremely confident in that opinion

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The Gold Patrol™ ‏@thegoldpatrol · 2m2 minutes ago
#theatershooting

Dr says he’s extremely confident in that opinion

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