Conrad Murray Trial - Day Twenty One

[Schu7]

Walgren is doing a great job. Oh I wish he did the Anthony trial. He would have destroyed the lies of all the Anthonys. Leaving a clear truth even that jury could understand.IMO

 

[Isabelle]

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Judge says he expects all the evidence in the case 2 be concluded tomorrow. Trial is set 2 resume at 9:30 am w/ end of re-direct of Dr White

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Dr. #Murray and attorneys are ordered back at 8:30 am tomorrow to discuss exhibits, schedule and whether Dr. #Murray will testify.

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Do you think Dr. #Murray should testify on his behalf? It's his constitutional right to either testify or not. #conradmurraytrial

Conrad Murray would do best to keep quiet. He's told too many untruths already and will make a mess of himself on the stand if he testifies.

 

[borndem]

Dr. White and jurors asked by Judge P to return tomorrow at 9:30.

Hmmmm. I wonder if JP wants to have another prayer-meeting with the principals?? He's smiling, but he's armed for bear, methinks. "No more of this shizzz, folks. How much longer do you guys think it will be? I wanna tell the jury something they can believe this time."

 

[borndem]

Sidebar before today's recess.

Camera on CM: Picks up a mini-back pack & kinda feels it with his hands.
Reaches in the side pocket and takes out...

Dang it... camera pans to Dr White still in his chair.

Looked as though sheriff standing next to CM got a little nervous, too, about what CM was taking out of bag.

Just saying. Not insinuating anything.

But I do wonder what's in that bag. Doesn't look like papers to me.

Lorazepam, medazelam, and Sam-I-Am, ma'am.

 

[borndem]

Anyone think rebuttal will go into next week?

I don't think so -- maybe CA might. I think the jury ought to get it by Tues-Wed. ???

 

[borndem]

I missed a lot of testimony today. Real life called.:banghead:

Did White say that the state tried to hire him?

Just curious. I read that on another site.

IMO

White said -- under oath, even! -- that Walgren called him and spoke about it. White told him that the DT had already contacted him. They talked a bit more & Walgren never (TTGL) never contacted him after that.

 

[borndem]

Does anyone know, re what J V-M said, that it means that the defense & the
prosecution told the Judge they'd be through with Dr White by 11:30 am tomorrow?

If so, and there are no more witnesses, do they go straight to closing arguments, the same day?

And how long do you expect the CAs to take?

Not a guess.

In one trial in NC (excuse me for saying NC again, but that's all I know about re courtroom processes), the judge set the length of closing at 2 hours for each side. (The 1st chair DT took 3 hours for his opening, and was obstructionist all the way through the trial IMHO.) As for CA --

 

[borndem]

So is Flanagan through with re-direct?

I heard that Walgren will be calling Dr. Shafer in rebuttal.

Missed you today, ocean - I hope this reality stuff doesn't take over your life for at least the next several days, and I hope it wasn't problematic or anything like that. If not, just put it in the dishwasher until next week...

I don't think Flan-again was done, but after sleeping on it tonight, he might decide otherwise by tomorrow morning. Salt in a wound & all that.....

And yes, Shafer needs to hit the propofol drip one more time to get the image of meaningless graphs out of the jury's head. White brought those same graphs as previous, and didn't understand & couldn't explain shizz to himself or to that poor, probably reeling & by now weary jury.

And I guess you know he was found in contempt -- again -- by JP -- and fined $1,000.00 by JP out of the presence of us & the jury, and must appear on this incident on the same day as his first. <sigh> Karma, baby Karma.

 

[borndem]

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Judge says he expects all the evidence in the case 2 be concluded tomorrow. Trial is set 2 resume at 9:30 am w/ end of re-direct of Dr White

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Dr. #Murray and attorneys are ordered back at 8:30 am tomorrow to discuss exhibits, schedule and whether Dr. #Murray will testify.

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Do you think Dr. #Murray should testify on his behalf? It's his constitutional right to either testify or not. #conradmurraytrial

Heyell yeah, put him up there!

 

[borndem]

Didn't one of the paramedics testify that MJ was cool to the touch? If the human body cools at roughly 1.5 degrees Fahrenheit per hour, MJ could have been dead for hour or more.

I'm guessing this is what happened:

CM was clueless. He doesn't use (or possibly even know about) vented tubing sets that allow you to draw directly from a glass bottle of propofol. He possibly doesn't even realize the bottle has a plastic tab that you're supposed to hang it with.

He tries to get MJ to sleep with midazolam and diazepam, but to no avail. MJ is still awake. You can hear the frustration in CM's voice when he relays this in the police interview, that MJ just won't fall asleep.

So CM takes the almost-drained saline bag that he previously used to hydrate MJ earlier in the evening, then crudely spikes the top of a Propofol bottle, putting it into the saline bag and lets it flow freely into the drip. Either accidentally or intentionally, he leaves the IV set wide open, so MJ gets a big dose and finally falls asleep.

CM is relieved and finally takes a break to make some phone calls and relax. MJ dies sometime in this period and it goes unnoticed by CM because of the lack of monitoring and audible alarm. He discovers MJ, panics, makes up a story that he was only gone for two minutes. Finally CM calls Michael Amir, and the rest is history.

Excellent synopsis, Bravo -- I can't think that it happened any other way. Yes, MJ was beyond even expert help by the time CM found him, and even CM knew it.

So, he picks up anything really damning (propofol bottles and the IV line), and possibly puts the ambu-bag on the floor to at least look medical, and thinks and panics. Then he starts the delay game so that the death will look like it didn't happen as early as it did -- altho CM had no idea when it actually occurred, either. He plays at CPR, lies about the femoral pulse, and then tries to find his doctor face. And he knows he's let his little trusting patient die within about 10--15 feet away from him.

"Oh, mama, can this really be the end -- to be stuck in California with those Vegas blues again??"

 

[borndem]

Didn't one of the paramedics testify that MJ was cool to the touch? If the human body cools at roughly 1.5 degrees Fahrenheit per hour, MJ could have been dead for hour or more.

I'm guessing this is what happened:

CM was clueless. He doesn't use (or possibly even know about) vented tubing sets that allow you to draw directly from a glass bottle of propofol. He possibly doesn't even realize the bottle has a plastic tab that you're supposed to hang it with.

He tries to get MJ to sleep with midazolam and diazepam, but to no avail. MJ is still awake. You can hear the frustration in CM's voice when he relays this in the police interview, that MJ just won't fall asleep.

So CM takes the almost-drained saline bag that he previously used to hydrate MJ earlier in the evening, then crudely spikes the top of a Propofol bottle, putting it into the saline bag and lets it flow freely into the drip. Either accidentally or intentionally, he leaves the IV set wide open, so MJ gets a big dose and finally falls asleep.

CM is relieved and finally takes a break to make some phone calls and relax. MJ dies sometime in this period and it goes unnoticed by CM because of the lack of monitoring and audible alarm. He discovers MJ, panics, makes up a story that he was only gone for two minutes. Finally CM calls Michael Amir, and the rest is history.

BBM - Yes, one did, Bravo. He also said his eyes were dry and pupils were blown. He said he thought he'd been dead possibly as long as an hour, IIRC.

And both of the EMT guys who testified seemed well-trained, experienced and knowledgeable. Very capable & professional & arrived in about 6 minutes because, as one said, "we were right around the corner." And the gates were wide open, so they had no delay.

 

[CarolinaMoon]

I was totally exhausted by all my house putting-back-together-while-watching-the-trial yesterday! I barely made it through dancing with the stars... I did miss a bit a piece here and there due to unacceptable dozing.

So, I came back here this morning to refresh my hazy memory of yesterday. I was right! Longest thread ever!

White's version of the standard of care struck me as being very frightening. He kept calling it the "gold standard" which a doctor should aspire to. I beg your pardon?

When I questioned my internist of 25 years as to why my records this year were only about 4'' of paper, I asked her where the rest were. She chuckled, in her professional way, and told me that she only keeps the last 3 years handy. If I need older records, they fill a storage carton somewhere in the building which can be retrieved rather easily. She estimated I probably have filled 1 1/2 cartons already because my specialists send her copies of my records (with my permission).

So, there goes the little "boo-boo" concerning CM's keeping records! Instead of recording MJ in a woozy state of mind, he could have used his IPhone to dictate his notes. No biggie to then transcribe them.

Not needing all that fancy equipment? Come on, Dr. W, it was even more necessary.

Oopsie! Forgot about the propofol? No way, Jose, it was pure cover-up!

Now, the defense is going to put up the gal who made those calculations? LOL! That's because White couldn't explain his way out of a wet paper bag to make CM look innocent. I'm sure Dr. Shafer has been pouring over them for quite a while and has handed Walgren some killer questions to ask. He is the master of pharmacokinetics!

I guess we will be seeing Shafer again for a bit today. I hope he totally trashes White's testimony. It won't be hard.

:rant:

 

[Talina]

I don't see how they can add a new witness to their witness list at this late date. I understand it is because of these models that she did and White could not testify to but that is of their own making. They just got these models last week and IMO shouldn't have been able to introduce them at that time either. They first should have come into evidence by the person that ran them to establish a foundation for White's testimony about them but that is not what happened. Makes me think that they totally misled Judge Pastor just exactly what White's qualifications were to even speak intelligently about them.

I really wonder how Flanagan even knew about her to begin with. For that reason alone, I hope she testifies. Flanagan seems to fly by the seat of his pants most of the time and comes across to me as though he really is out of his league when it comes to this trial. It would not surprise me one bit if she contacted him out of the blue offering to help with her own models and he took her up on it just taking her at her word that she knew what she was doing. I also can't imagine an expert witness taking models like he did without even knowing this person and their reputation and credentials yet he sits there on the stand and calls her an expert at doing this sort of thing. How could he possibly know that when he just met her last week and by his own admission spent very little time with her, didn't review anything she used to base her model programming on, didn't review any of her input data for accuracy and no matter how many times he referred to her as an expert, just saying it doesn't make it so.

 

[Talina]

One question I wish Walgren had asked Dr. White. If CM did not know about the Lorazepam that they say MJ took then why did CM feel the need to give the reversal drug (can't remember what it is called).

I'm sure he can address that in his closing arguments but I would have liked to see Dr. White's response to that question.

 

[peace9274]

I don't see how they can add a new witness to their witness list at this late date. I understand it is because of these models that she did and White could not testify to but that is of their own making. They just got these models last week and IMO shouldn't have been able to introduce them at that time either. They first should have come into evidence by the person that ran them to establish a foundation for White's testimony about them but that is not what happened. Makes me think that they totally misled Judge Pastor just exactly what White's qualifications were to even speak intelligently about them.

I really wonder how Flanagan even knew about her to begin with. For that reason alone, I hope she testifies. Flanagan seems to fly by the seat of his pants most of the time and comes across to me as though he really is out of his league when it comes to this trial. It would not surprise me one bit if she contacted him out of the blue offering to help with her own models and he took her up on it just taking her at her word that she knew what she was doing. I also can't imagine an expert witness taking models like he did without even knowing this person and their reputation and credentials yet he sits there on the stand and calls her an expert at doing this sort of thing. How could he possibly know that when he just met her last week and by his own admission spent very little time with her, didn't review anything she used to base her model programming on, didn't review any of her input data for accuracy and no matter how many times he referred to her as an expert, just saying it doesn't make it so.

I agree and think that is what Walgren was trying to get the jurors
to realize when he asked White when he first met Ms Melon-Ornalas.

I hope they got it.

 

[TxLady2]

Awww, now, Lady -- You're never too old!! Especially if he's that steamy -- and it IS cold outside. Go for it Tex!!!

. :blushing:

Oh, thank you, sweetie, but it's true!
I do admire his masterful way of questioning, he seems to be head and shoulders above the two clowns at the defense table. Knows his stuff, he do!
But, yeah.... he's a delight to look at, too.

 

[CarolinaMoon]

I agree and think that is what Walgren was trying to get the jurors
to realize when he asked White when he first met Ms Melon-Ornalas.

I hope they got it.

Talina, Peace great posts. I have to wonder if Ms. Melon-Ornales has ever qualified as an expert witness in pharmacokinetics. It seems she does have a PhD in the field, after degrees in a totally different field. Don't recall exactly what it is, was it astronomy or something like that?

How White was allowed to testify to these charts without being declared an expert in that field, I do have to wonder. Let's remember that way back when, he relied on Shafer for that aspect.

Perhaps Shafer and Walgren decided that it wasn't worth the trouble to object to White's ability to testify to the topic, preferring to do it through the back door of cross examination. Now that this person will testify, it will be interesting to see how it is all handled. Walgren, with Shafer's guidance could destroy her on cross and then put up Shafer on rebuttal to finish the job.

I listen to KTLA for the lawyer experts who are covering it and listen to IS and HLN as well. So far, the general impression is that Walgren decimated White yesterday. I do so agree with their assessment.

 

[TxLady2]

Quadruple W - Quaduple V???

That judge is so fine & cute & still has his sense of humor (I've no idea how or why). But I might be getting a crush-let on him as well.

Oh, this jury is so fortunate to have JP and the two fine prosecutors to balance out the circus on the DT.

TxLady - What about Judge Pastor? Is he take-home material?? Or is he all mine?

Oh, yeah, he's a keeper! Much more my speed. Pretty fair so far, too.
I had a crush-let on that one cute doctor, too... the wavy-haired, blonde/gray guy who had such a nice smile.... Oooooh, he was FINE!

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I am thoroughly disgustet by White's opinions (excuses) about this case.

As I said before he reminds me of a parent of a unruly child in the principal's office that blames it all on everyone else except their child (the actual problem.):innocent:

There are so many leaps being made with nothing to back it up. How can he dare say it was MJ who injected? How can he rule out that CM wasnt the culprit? After all it was CM that was giving him the lorazepam and propofol to begin with. How can a total of 50 mgs of Propofol have the high levels in MJ femoral blood with that dose?

He seems to project waiting to call 911 wasnt a biggy at all because after all MJ was already dead. Yet, CM insisted they keep working on MJ and he would not agree to calling his death. He said security had to be called because the gate was closed. :innocent: Really? Just how long does White think it would have taken the guard to come to the gate when the voice box button was pushed by EMTS or if they arrived with their sirens on? Maybe 30 seconds? Plus the guard trailer has a monitor where it shows anyone approaching the gate.

So it is hunky doorie to Dr. White that CM walked out of the room for an hour to talk with his ladies. Yeah, he had no monitoring equipment but that seems to be ok for White too. MJ just looked like he was sleeping:innocent:. Of course dead people can look like their just sleeping too. But now CM is so good that all it takes is for MJ to 'appear' to be sleeping.

Who stays sound asleep when given Propofol? Those who have been given a bolus and a drip would but if they were only given a 25 mg bolus they would be awake in 8-10 minutes. Why wouldn't Murray already know something was wrong if he stayed 30 minutes and MJ was still asleep? In fact medical staff rouses the patient just to make sure they are coming out from under it to make sure they are not still in medium or deep sedation. But not Murray and White thinks that is perfectly ok.

White dismisses the slit saline bag because it just doesnt make sense to him. Well Hello Dr. White........nothing this defendant did makes any sense so why would you think this would be any different?

This DT wants to make me hurl. They are all so devious. I don't trust any of them including their $3500 per day rent a hired gun expert.

Sorry but I just had to vent.:seeya:

 

[TxLady2]

Absurd indeed, Talina, but what else did he have? Diddly.

ZIP code, I mean really, Conrad. Oh, you forgot to worry about latitude & longitude.

I still say he was looking for any delay available to absolve himself about letting MJ die probably 30--45 minutes before he found him. :rubberducky:

I've had occasion to call 911, and they've NEVER asked me for my zip code. I'm not in big old LA, but still.... don't you think that most EMT's would KNOW where Michael Jackson lives???