Curiosity Never Kills the Cat: Legal Questions for VERIFIED LAWYERS- ~No Discussion~

Again, thank you AZlawyer. Your time and experience is much appreciated!

My understanding is the KTAR interview with Dina is an opinion rather than a blatant accusation and there is no defamation.

I believe that still leaves two possible wrongful death suits. The SOL is approaching the 2yr mark for both.

Dina is the only party that has ever singled out individuals whom she believe were involved in murdering Max, RZ and XZ. The Zahau's have never accused any person or persons of murdering Rebecca. They have only stated they believe Rebecca was murdered.

I would assume XZ would be named the defendant in a wrongful death suit filed by Dina. Who would or could the Zahau's name? What would the Zahau's need to file a wrongful death suit?

Dina could name the estate of Rebecca Zahau as a defendant also.

I have no idea who the Zahaus would name. Who do they think killed Rebecca? That would be the person to name. They wouldn't need anything to file suit--just the accusation--but if they want to win it would be helpful to have evidence. :)
 
Thanks AZlawyer :) I do see the technicalities in her statements that may make a defamation suit challenging. However, someone PMed me that CA Law is different from AZ law regarding this matter.

From what you say, it appears that as long as we all use the terms, "I think" or "In my opinion", then we can also go on live tv/any media and give our opinions and make direct accusations about specific people without fear of any legal consequences/defamation suits. Correct?

Also, we can claim expertise in science if we have a degree of any kind as long as we've participated in ONE research project in the course of obtaining our degree? Moreover, as long as we pay scientific experts to conduct a study, even if the conclusions they draw are inconclusive, we can use the phrase "I have irrefutable scientific proof" that such and such happened, and then we can go on to point fingers at specific individuals of any age -- adults, teens, even babies and toddlers? -- but as long as we couch the accusations in an opinion form, then we are immune to prosecution/legal ramifications, correct?

I have other Q's, but it's spring break and the kids' friends are staying with us for the duration and running amok in and out of our house/yard. I'm balancing multiple activities right now -- been crazy busy coordinating activities for them so they don't get into trouble. Hubby's helping by doing some of the cooking and chauffeuring too :) So I'll ask more Q's later.

P.S. Since you answered my Q's in prior post, I assume they were understandable and no need for me to revise. LOL

No, you can't make false accusations, but you can give opinions. If Dina had said that XZ killed Max, that would be a different story.

I seriously doubt that CAL law allows suit for opinions. If it does, we'd all better quit posting theories on CAL cases.

I suppose you "can" claim expertise in a science even if you don't have it. I don't know who could sue you for doing it, if that's what you mean. I'd need more info about the specific situation. I mean, if you claim expertise in a science in order to defraud someone into giving you a research grant, then the person who funded the project might be able to sue you for fraud.

You also "can" misrepresent the results of a scientific study and--same as above--no one could sue you for it unless it harmed THEM in some way. As I said before, if Dina had said "I have proof that Max was murdered AND THAT XZ KILLED HIM," that would be a different story.
 
Ok, I have a hypothetical.

If someone files a civil suit, even if they can't win, where would it go ... would it get a day in court?

If it is legally insufficient, then the defendant can make a motion to dismiss.

If there is insufficient evidence, then the defendant can make a motion for summary judgment.

But if there is evidence on both sides, even if it's pretty lopsided, then the case will go to a jury (or a "bench trial" before a judge if no one demands a jury).
 
No, you can't make false accusations, but you can give opinions. If Dina had said that XZ killed Max, that would be a different story.

Isn't that what Dina said precisely -- that she has irrefutable scientific proof that Max was assaulted and a homicide resulted, and then she said she thinks "XZ" or "Rebecca" perpetrated the assault and homicide. But you're saying she's NOT making an accusation? Then what exactly is she doing? Giving an accusatory opinion is not the same as making an accusation? That's just a play on words. Semantics, no?

AZlawyer said:
I seriously doubt that CAL law allows suit for opinions. If it does, we'd all better quit posting theories on CAL cases.

I should not speak for the person who PMed me, but I believe what she was saying is that the thresholds to show "harm" caused by Dina's opinionated statements on the Zahaus may be different, not necessarily that there's a different legal definition for defamation in the state of CA. Also I would think the extent to which Dina has repeated her couched accusations in numerous, multiple interviews in different forums and tv/media may also affect how the court interprets her "opinions".

AZlawyer said:
I suppose you "can" claim expertise in a science even if you don't have it. I don't know who could sue you for doing it, if that's what you mean. I'd need more info about the specific situation. I mean, if you claim expertise in a science in order to defraud someone into giving you a research grant, then the person who funded the project might be able to sue you for fraud.

Fortunately for me, I hold several degrees, one of which IS in science (and not just social science) and I am the primary author in several medical journal articles. :) But when I asked the Q, it was with respect to what Dina has publicly stated in interviews.

The situation is that Dina had asserted in interviews that she is a "scientist". She only recently obtained her PsyD after much controversy from Argosy University in AZ in which the school and licensing board questioned whether she actually fulfilled all her requirements (this was discussed extensively in another thread). To date, she has never been licensed to practice psychology anywhere.

Other posters can help you find the media articles/tv interviews where she directly states this, and it was not couched as an opinion either. She stated, "I'm a scientist and I know..." I think she stated it in a tv presser when she made formal announcement of the founding of Maxie's House, and also when she was in front of the SD Council arguing for the reopening of Max's case. She may have even stated the same when she first made her tv appearance on the Dr. Phil show, the same show as when the Zahaus went on.

AZlawyer said:
You also "can" misrepresent the results of a scientific study and--same as above--no one could sue you for it unless it harmed THEM in some way. As I said before, if Dina had said "I have proof that Max was murdered AND THAT XZ KILLED HIM," that would be a different story.

Exactly. This is what I'm getting at. Her so-called "expert report" is used as a tool for her to slander the Zahaus. And she fraudulently claims that the findings in the expert report conclusively and scientifically supports her opinion that Becky and/or her sister XZ "assaulted and caused the homicide of Max". So Dina IS doing irreparable harm upon the Zahaus' reputation and causing them undue emotional and psychological distress.

By the way, all this is in my opinion. Thanks! I have other Q's but I'll post in another time because the kids are making a mess in my kitchen! Grrr
 
If it is legally insufficient, then the defendant can make a motion to dismiss.

If there is insufficient evidence, then the defendant can make a motion for summary judgment.

But if there is evidence on both sides, even if it's pretty lopsided, then the case will go to a jury (or a "bench trial" before a judge if no one demands a jury).


Ok, A_Z, concerning Rebecca's death and most think it was murder, do you think the following evidence makes it possible the Zahau's could sue Dina (of course claiming she is responsible for her demise):

- strong motive (this includes a lot, one being possible evidence she thought Max was suffocated)
- no alibi
- past history (that could lead one to think she was nearly stalking Rebecca, and possibly lying about Rebecca after the deaths)
- witness who says she was at the crime scene around the TOD or within hours before - Nina, her sister, admitted she was at the crime scene
- Dina has a violent, emotionally abusive domestic past with Jonah
- there are possible drug and alcohol problems (don't know if they can be proven)
- Other? Chime in folks
 
Other posters can help you find the media articles/tv interviews where she directly states this, and it was not couched as an opinion either. She stated, "I'm a scientist and I know..." I think she stated it in a tv presser when she made formal announcement of the founding of Maxie's House, and also when she was in front of the SD Council arguing for the reopening of Max's case. She may have even stated the same when she first made her tv appearance on the Dr. Phil show, the same show as when the Zahaus went on.

I would be very surprised if Dina hasn't been told by legal counsel exactly what she can and cannot say and I suspect that she has pushed that line every time so that everyone thinks they hear her saying something as truth, as she also seems shrewd enough to understand how far she can push it.

If the print media has twisted her words, that would be another thing---so articles can say this or that, but, again, I suspect her lawyers then get sic'd on the media who have to go back and listen and find out that she almost said it but not quite.

Being a lawyer, in large part this is what lawyering is all about for some--how close can they get to the line without actually crossing it. Not my particular way of doing things but essentially that is why we know the law---to know when you have crossed it---or how to stop you before you do--and to advise you where that line is.

She may not be overly media savvy, but she's not going to be stupid when there is money in the amounts we are talking about involved. I also suspect Jonah stays out of her way as long as it doesn't cost him anything, so I bet he has a pile of lawyers to make sure she stays on this side of the line too.

As to any lawsuit---the old saying is, it's like a plate of spaghetti, throw it at the wall and see what sticks. (of course, we also use another S word when using that term ;)

I followed this case for about the first six months and have spent the last day or so trying to catch up. Interesting things happening, but ultimately almost unbearably sad as several families are grieving and doing so in sometimes public and negative ways.

MOO!
 
Ok, A_Z, concerning Rebecca's death and most think it was murder, do you think the following evidence makes it possible the Zahau's could sue Dina (of course claiming she is responsible for her demise):

- strong motive (this includes a lot, one being possible evidence she thought Max was suffocated)
- no alibi
- past history (that could lead one to think she was nearly stalking Rebecca, and possibly lying about Rebecca after the deaths)
- witness who says she was at the crime scene around the TOD or within hours before - Nina, her sister, admitted she was at the crime scene
- Dina has a violent, emotionally abusive domestic past with Jonah
- there are possible drug and alcohol problems (don't know if they can be proven)
- Other? Chime in folks

I would be very surprised if Becky's family sues. I believe there must be personally damaging things, unfortunately, that would come up in any trial---that whomever was named in a wrongful death suit would make sure would come up. And whatever those things are, they seem to be enough to keep the Zahau family quiet-ish.

The reason I say this is because I find the release of the investigative file to Anne Bremer intriguing for a couple of reasons. The police released it to the attorney/family, saying it was releasing everything in the file, however also making sure they stated that they were releasing for a very specific reason and not waiving the otherwise huge law enforcement exemption to the open records laws in California. Everyone took that as a threat--and Ms. Bremer wanted us to, clearly.

HOWEVER, in reviewing the laws in California, what LE was really saying is that if an open records exemption is waived---it cannot be waived for only one person. If it is waived, it is waived--therefore if the police waived the exemption for Anne/family, they waived it for everyone and would be obliged to provide the entire file to anyone.

I have no doubt Ms. Bremer is a smart attorney and knew exactly what they were saying---that if she shared any information at all, essentially, that the waiver would be in force and anybody could get the file. The family does not want this for whatever reason so easiest solution is to make that letter a threat.

To me this begs the question---why do they care who else sees the investigative file??? Why didn't Anne/family release it anyway? Wouldn't they want the media or public to see the file information? What is in there they don't want released? Maybe it's not odd, but it sets off my hinky meter big-time.

The only reason that makes sense to me is that there is compelling damaging information in there detrimental to Becky. Who knows what it is and who knows what any family considers damaging--it may be nothing but they may be extraordinarily private.

I would love to see somebody fight that whole idea and get the file. The reason they used is unique, a stretch and to me seems a total scam. Also the reason LE gave is only for a very specific set of items that must be released "to the victims of the incident"

It seems to me that not only is it a total BS attempt around the wholesale waiver of the exemption problem, but it also would seem to follow that, at the very least, only the information released according to the "victims of the incident" section of the law would apply under that---that EVERYTHING ELSE in the investigative file was released and the waiver of exemption for that everything else is in play and anybody should be able to get those records.

The info the clause LE is trying to use requires be given to the family is:

However, state and local law
enforcement agencies shall disclose the names and addresses of
persons involved in, or witnesses other than confidential informants
to, the incident, the description of any property involved, the date,
time, and location of the incident, all diagrams, statements of the
parties involved in the incident, the statements of all witnesses,
other than confidential informants, to the victims of an incident, or
an authorized representative thereof,

Yes, that is a lot of the information, but there must be many other pieces--ie phone records of other players, cctv information, computer records etc etc that are NOT required to be given to family under that clause.

So, since the waiver to exemption from open records was granted to those other items by virtue of giving the whole file to family, LE cannot pick and choose who the waiver applies to....they waived the exemption to keep the file closed as to any information not covered by the specific clause they tried to use to end-around around the whole thing to begin with.

I suspect none of this is making any sense if you haven't read the open records laws, the exemptions and the waivers! Sorry! I will try to shorten and clarify.......

PS. I am coming at this from the personal opinion that Becky's death was murder, that the rich get a different LE and legal experience from the masses, and that Max's death was a terrible accident of a normal rambunctious 6 year old boy...

With all of this--all just my conjecture, initial thoughts on reading laws and most of all---my opinions and theories only---not a legal opinion!!!
 
Thank you chinacat, very informative.

I would love to see somebody fight that whole idea and get the file. The reason they used is unique, a stretch and to me seems a total scam. Also the reason LE gave is only for a very specific set of items that must be released "to the victims of the incident"

BBM - are you talking about LE here. Just trying to keep things straight.
I have no doubt Ms. Bremer is a smart attorney and knew exactly what they were saying---that if she shared any information at all, essentially, that the waiver would be in force and anybody could get the file.

Also, are you saying the door HAS been opened for anyone to request the files be made public or to get the files?

why do they care who else sees the investigative file???

I really wonder if there is something bad in there about Rebecca (the public would think was bad and effect their opinion of the case) or if it is mostly embarrassing for the family or whatever. But could it be that they don't want anyone else to have any access to the files for other reasons, like a tactical advantage or?
 
Thank you chinacat, very informative.



BBM - are you talking about LE here. Just trying to keep things straight.


Also, are you saying the door HAS been opened for anyone to request the files be made public or to get the files?



I really wonder if there is something bad in there about Rebecca (the public would think was bad and effect their opinion of the case) or if it is mostly embarrassing for the family or whatever. But could it be that they don't want anyone else to have any access to the files for other reasons, like a tactical advantage or?

My apologies again---I need to really re-work the whole summary and wrangle my thoughts better!

Yes, speaking about LE there.

Also, yes, my general opinion is that the door has absolutely been opened---BUT--while I'm an attorney--I am not admitted in California and not in practice in that field (although I have done some local RTK and some FOIA stuff.)

The LE letter/rationale for release really seems like a weak run-around to the actual "waiver=waiver for all" rule but I'd love others to chime in with their thoughts. Also, my state and the FOIA laws, in general, are very pro-release anything and everything, including LE files (even if the agencies hate releasing anything in practice) but California has an enormous "basically if it is LE, it is off limits" exemption, so maybe the courts really lean against disclosure. I don't know those actual day-in and day-out things that play in so big in actual practice and litigation in any given state.

I've been thinking about other reasons to not release the file info and I can't figure out a tactical advantage--the family/attorney have had the door closed in their faces at every turn--local, state, LE, political etc. I see on Bremer's FB that they are still working on other things with local counsel, so could be tactical.....but really, what benefit? To whom? How? When?

I keep thinking about Fred Murray who sued everyone and anyone for the records related to his daughter, Maura's, disappearance. The only problem with anyone getting those records afterwards was/is the sheer volume of paper and copying involved.

I guess that is the real issue for me right now---what is the benefit TO BECKY this many years later of keeping the information in the file out of the public realm?

Sent from my Transformer Prime TF201 using Tapatalk HD
 
My apologies again---I need to really re-work the whole summary and wrangle my thoughts better!

Yes, speaking about LE there.

Also, yes, my general opinion is that the door has absolutely been opened---BUT--while I'm an attorney--I am not admitted in California and not in practice in that field (although I have done some local RTK and some FOIA stuff.)

The LE letter/rationale for release really seems like a weak run-around to the actual "waiver=waiver for all" rule but I'd love others to chime in with their thoughts. Also, my state and the FOIA laws, in general, are very pro-release anything and everything, including LE files (even if the agencies hate releasing anything in practice) but California has an enormous "basically if it is LE, it is off limits" exemption, so maybe the courts really lean against disclosure. I don't know those actual day-in and day-out things that play in so big in actual practice and litigation in any given state.

I've been thinking about other reasons to not release the file info and I can't figure out a tactical advantage--the family/attorney have had the door closed in their faces at every turn--local, state, LE, political etc. I see on Bremer's FB that they are still working on other things with local counsel, so could be tactical.....but really, what benefit? To whom? How? When?

I keep thinking about Fred Murray who sued everyone and anyone for the records related to his daughter, Maura's, disappearance. The only problem with anyone getting those records afterwards was/is the sheer volume of paper and copying involved.

I guess that is the real issue for me right now---what is the benefit TO BECKY this many years later of keeping the information in the file out of the public realm?

Sent from my Transformer Prime TF201 using Tapatalk HD

Thanks ChinaCat67 for the info! MEOW! :)

I think with Dina's wealth and resources such as expensive legal advice, she would have already acquired all the Zahau files via the FOIA and whatever else necessary. And she would have used whatever sordid info she could garner from those files to publicly indict Becky and her family even more than what she has done -- if there were anything "sensitive" or "sordid" contained in them. So I get the feeling that the Zahau case files are either not "open" to the public or there's nothing sensitive in them.

But then, if Dina could have gotten hold of the Zahau files, then surely that'd mean they are open to the public through the FOIA as well.

I am with you in your questioning of why the Zahau family and their attorney hasn't chosen to release the files to the public. One reason I can see is that they want to hold crucial evidence close to their vest as LE often does in their investigations because the Zahaus don't want to give anything up to the murderer(s) should Becky's case be reopened.
 
Thank you chinacat, very informative.



BBM - are you talking about LE here. Just trying to keep things straight.


Also, are you saying the door HAS been opened for anyone to request the files be made public or to get the files?



I really wonder if there is something bad in there about Rebecca (the public would think was bad and effect their opinion of the case) or if it is mostly embarrassing for the family or whatever. But could it be that they don't want anyone else to have any access to the files for other reasons, like a tactical advantage or?

If the files are open, then one of us can file using FOIA to obtain them. Do you want to try?
 
I would be very surprised if Becky's family sues. I believe there must be personally damaging things, unfortunately, that would come up in any trial---that whomever was named in a wrongful death suit would make sure would come up. And whatever those things are, they seem to be enough to keep the Zahau family quiet-ish.

The reason I say this is because I find the release of the investigative file to Anne Bremer intriguing for a couple of reasons. The police released it to the attorney/family, saying it was releasing everything in the file, however also making sure they stated that they were releasing for a very specific reason and not waiving the otherwise huge law enforcement exemption to the open records laws in California. Everyone took that as a threat--and Ms. Bremer wanted us to, clearly.

HOWEVER, in reviewing the laws in California, what LE was really saying is that if an open records exemption is waived---it cannot be waived for only one person. If it is waived, it is waived--therefore if the police waived the exemption for Anne/family, they waived it for everyone and would be obliged to provide the entire file to anyone.

I have no doubt Ms. Bremer is a smart attorney and knew exactly what they were saying---that if she shared any information at all, essentially, that the waiver would be in force and anybody could get the file. The family does not want this for whatever reason so easiest solution is to make that letter a threat.

To me this begs the question---why do they care who else sees the investigative file??? Why didn't Anne/family release it anyway? Wouldn't they want the media or public to see the file information? What is in there they don't want released? Maybe it's not odd, but it sets off my hinky meter big-time.

The only reason that makes sense to me is that there is compelling damaging information in there detrimental to Becky. Who knows what it is and who knows what any family considers damaging--it may be nothing but they may be extraordinarily private.

I would love to see somebody fight that whole idea and get the file. The reason they used is unique, a stretch and to me seems a total scam. Also the reason LE gave is only for a very specific set of items that must be released "to the victims of the incident"

It seems to me that not only is it a total BS attempt around the wholesale waiver of the exemption problem, but it also would seem to follow that, at the very least, only the information released according to the "victims of the incident" section of the law would apply under that---that EVERYTHING ELSE in the investigative file was released and the waiver of exemption for that everything else is in play and anybody should be able to get those records.

The info the clause LE is trying to use requires be given to the family is:



Yes, that is a lot of the information, but there must be many other pieces--ie phone records of other players, cctv information, computer records etc etc that are NOT required to be given to family under that clause.

So, since the waiver to exemption from open records was granted to those other items by virtue of giving the whole file to family, LE cannot pick and choose who the waiver applies to....they waived the exemption to keep the file closed as to any information not covered by the specific clause they tried to use to end-around around the whole thing to begin with.

I suspect none of this is making any sense if you haven't read the open records laws, the exemptions and the waivers! Sorry! I will try to shorten and clarify.......

PS. I am coming at this from the personal opinion that Becky's death was murder, that the rich get a different LE and legal experience from the masses, and that Max's death was a terrible accident of a normal rambunctious 6 year old boy...

With all of this--all just my conjecture, initial thoughts on reading laws and most of all---my opinions and theories only---not a legal opinion!!!

The law intrigues me. I'm not following about the exemption of waiver to disclose/keep close the files. LE specifically wrote a letter to the Zahau attorney threatening that if she releases info "piecemeal" to the public, then LE will release the entire file to the public and disclose whatever sensitive material there is about Becky in those files. Zahau lawyer chose not to release any info. What is the exemption you're referring? What was waived?
 
I would be very surprised if Dina hasn't been told by legal counsel exactly what she can and cannot say and I suspect that she has pushed that line every time so that everyone thinks they hear her saying something as truth, as she also seems shrewd enough to understand how far she can push it.

If the print media has twisted her words, that would be another thing---so articles can say this or that, but, again, I suspect her lawyers then get sic'd on the media who have to go back and listen and find out that she almost said it but not quite.

Being a lawyer, in large part this is what lawyering is all about for some--how close can they get to the line without actually crossing it. Not my particular way of doing things but essentially that is why we know the law---to know when you have crossed it---or how to stop you before you do--and to advise you where that line is.

She may not be overly media savvy, but she's not going to be stupid when there is money in the amounts we are talking about involved. I also suspect Jonah stays out of her way as long as it doesn't cost him anything, so I bet he has a pile of lawyers to make sure she stays on this side of the line too.

As to any lawsuit---the old saying is, it's like a plate of spaghetti, throw it at the wall and see what sticks. (of course, we also use another S word when using that term ;)

I followed this case for about the first six months and have spent the last day or so trying to catch up. Interesting things happening, but ultimately almost unbearably sad as several families are grieving and doing so in sometimes public and negative ways.

MOO!

I totally agree. Dina was likely coached by her lawyers on what exactly to say and how to phrase things so that she won't be prosecuted for slander.

Dina's been pushing the legal envelope to the limits, bordering on slander. I was just telling another poster that you can tell in the KTAR interview that Dina and her legal team most likely prompted the interviewer to specifically ask her opinion about who she thinks assaulted and caused the homicide of Max. I saw a glint in her eyes when he asked her the question. Then she hesitates, and repeats his question "Are you asking me my opinion" or "Are you asking me what I think"? (I only viewed the video once so I don't recall the exact wording but she said something to that effect). He nods. She then smiles wickedly and goes full charge into her accusatory "opinions" that it was Becky and/or her sister XZ.

It appeared that she was pretending that she didn't want to make accusations but was forced to do so on the spot by the interviewer's "impromptu, off-the-cuff" question. IMO, that is rehearsed B.S.
 
Ok, A_Z, concerning Rebecca's death and most think it was murder, do you think the following evidence makes it possible the Zahau's could sue Dina (of course claiming she is responsible for her demise):

- strong motive (this includes a lot, one being possible evidence she thought Max was suffocated)
- no alibi
- past history (that could lead one to think she was nearly stalking Rebecca, and possibly lying about Rebecca after the deaths)
- witness who says she was at the crime scene around the TOD or within hours before - Nina, her sister, admitted she was at the crime scene
- Dina has a violent, emotionally abusive domestic past with Jonah
- there are possible drug and alcohol problems (don't know if they can be proven)
- Other? Chime in folks

I personally believe there is more than sufficient circumstantial evidence for the Zahau's to sue Dina for wrongful death. If I were the Zahaus, I would go full throttle on this. This may be the only way they will see justice done for their Becky.

I think the wrongful death suit will force all the POIs, at the very least, to give depositions. I think the case goes much the way a murder trial would, but the standard of proof against the defendant is much lower. Guilty verdict in a wrongful death is determined by "preponderance of evidence" rather than the "beyond a reasonable doubt" needed in criminal trials. So I think a wrongful death suit against Dina is certainly winnable.
 
Ok, I found specifics re: California Defamation Law.

"California Elements of Defamation

Defamation, which consists of both libel and slander, is defined by case law and statute in California. See Cal. Civ. Code §§ 44, 45a, and 46.

The elements of a defamation claim are:

1. publication of a statement of fact
2. that is false,*
3. unprivileged,
4. has a natural tendency to injure or which causes "special damage," and
5. the defendant's fault in publishing the statement amounted to at least negligence.

Publication, which may be written or oral, means communication to a third person who understands the defamatory meaning of the statement and its application to the person to whom reference is made. Publication need not be to the “public” at large; communication to a single individual other than the plaintiff is sufficient. Republishing a defamatory statement made by another is generally not protected.

*As a matter of law, in cases involving public figures or matters of public concern, the burden is on the plaintiff to prove falsity in a defamation action."

http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/california-defamation-law

~~~~~
BBM. I think the bolded would apply to what Dina did to the Zahau sisters. I have to research further re: what constitutes "opinions" and its legal immunity therein, and whether the number of times someone repeats their accusatory opinions over time, whether the number of different public and private arenas (media, forums, clubs, etc.) this person repeats their accusatory opinions, and whether the contexts in which this person is repeating their accusatory opinions affect whether the legal immunity of opinions still stands in a defamation suit.
 
I personally believe there is more than sufficient circumstantial evidence for the Zahau's to sue Dina for wrongful death. If I were the Zahaus, I would go full throttle on this. This may be the only way they will see justice done for their Becky.

I think the wrongful death suit will force all the POIs, at the very least, to give depositions. I think the case goes much the way a murder trial would, but the standard of proof against the defendant is much lower. Guilty verdict in a wrongful death is determined by "preponderance of evidence" rather than the "beyond a reasonable doubt" needed in criminal trials. So I think a wrongful death suit against Dina is certainly winnable.

IMO, I would include JS in a wrongful death suit because 1) it was his home, 2) he gave Nina his car keys which likely included his house keys, and 3) it was a well-known fact that the back door to Spreckels was always open.
 
Isn't that what Dina said precisely -- that she has irrefutable scientific proof that Max was assaulted and a homicide resulted, and then she said she thinks "XZ" or "Rebecca" perpetrated the assault and homicide. But you're saying she's NOT making an accusation? Then what exactly is she doing? Giving an accusatory opinion is not the same as making an accusation? That's just a play on words. Semantics, no?

Yes, she said she had proof that there was a murder and she "thinks" either XZ or Rebecca did it. Yes, there is a difference between that and making a statement of fact that XZ or Rebecca did it. You and I and everyone at WS had better hope that this is not just semantics, or there would be a whole lot of members here at risk for defamation suits.

I should not speak for the person who PMed me, but I believe what she was saying is that the thresholds to show "harm" caused by Dina's opinionated statements on the Zahaus may be different, not necessarily that there's a different legal definition for defamation in the state of CA. Also I would think the extent to which Dina has repeated her couched accusations in numerous, multiple interviews in different forums and tv/media may also affect how the court interprets her "opinions".

The threshold to show harm may be different. What we were talking about was whether or not Dina had made a statement of fact (actionable) or a statement of opinion (not actionable).

Fortunately for me, I hold several degrees, one of which IS in science (and not just social science) and I am the primary author in several medical journal articles. :) But when I asked the Q, it was with respect to what Dina has publicly stated in interviews.

The situation is that Dina had asserted in interviews that she is a "scientist". She only recently obtained her PsyD after much controversy from Argosy University in AZ in which the school and licensing board questioned whether she actually fulfilled all her requirements (this was discussed extensively in another thread). To date, she has never been licensed to practice psychology anywhere.

Other posters can help you find the media articles/tv interviews where she directly states this, and it was not couched as an opinion either. She stated, "I'm a scientist and I know..." I think she stated it in a tv presser when she made formal announcement of the founding of Maxie's House, and also when she was in front of the SD Council arguing for the reopening of Max's case. She may have even stated the same when she first made her tv appearance on the Dr. Phil show, the same show as when the Zahaus went on.

I understand that. I just can't figure out who you're saying might have been harmed or able to sue for those statements. Just making false or misleading statements is not actionable.

Exactly. This is what I'm getting at. Her so-called "expert report" is used as a tool for her to slander the Zahaus. And she fraudulently claims that the findings in the expert report conclusively and scientifically supports her opinion that Becky and/or her sister XZ "assaulted and caused the homicide of Max". So Dina IS doing irreparable harm upon the Zahaus' reputation and causing them undue emotional and psychological distress.

And my point is only that, as far as anyone has shown me, she has not, in fact, claimed that the expert report supports her opinion that Becky and/or XZ killed Max. She has only claimed that the expert report proves SOMEONE killed Max, and her personal opinion is that it had to be Becky or XZ.

And, as I said before, the Zahaus can't sue for damage to Becky's reputation, as she is deceased and unfortunately is not considered to have any legally protectable reputation any more. As for XZ, she could sue if Dina makes a statement of FACT (not opinion) that she killed Max.


By the way, all this is in my opinion. Thanks! I have other Q's but I'll post in another time because the kids are making a mess in my kitchen! Grrr

My responses are in bold above.
 
My responses are in bold above.

Thanks, I appreciate your legal expertise on this.

I believe a compelling case can be made arguing that her opinions border on slander based on her 1) intent, 2) repetitive accusations couched in opinion form made time and time again across multiple, varied media and public arenas 3) and verbal manipulations of words -- that while she appears to be giving an opinion by using "I think" or "In my opinion", her additional assertions identifying herself as a scientist and an expert provide sufficient evidence that she is, in fact, making claims that her "opinions" are equivalent to scientific "facts", and thus, crosses the line into slander.

While I understand your legal points, I believe if XZ can obtain a solid, reputable lawyer, a strong defamation case can be made.

However, if the Zahaus had to chose between a defamation vs. a wrongful death suit, I think they should choose the latter because there is more than sufficient evidence in the wrongful death suit of who the culprit(s) are, and more to be gain in terms of obtaining justice for Becky.
 
Ok, A_Z, concerning Rebecca's death and most think it was murder, do you think the following evidence makes it possible the Zahau's could sue Dina (of course claiming she is responsible for her demise):

- strong motive (this includes a lot, one being possible evidence she thought Max was suffocated)
- no alibi
- past history (that could lead one to think she was nearly stalking Rebecca, and possibly lying about Rebecca after the deaths)
- witness who says she was at the crime scene around the TOD or within hours before - Nina, her sister, admitted she was at the crime scene
- Dina has a violent, emotionally abusive domestic past with Jonah
- there are possible drug and alcohol problems (don't know if they can be proven)
- Other? Chime in folks

It's possible that the Zahaus could make it to trial, although IMO they would need a lot more evidence than this to win.
 
Ok, I found specifics re: California Defamation Law.

"California Elements of Defamation

Defamation, which consists of both libel and slander, is defined by case law and statute in California. See Cal. Civ. Code §§ 44, 45a, and 46.

The elements of a defamation claim are:

1. publication of a statement of fact
2. that is false,*
3. unprivileged,
4. has a natural tendency to injure or which causes "special damage," and
5. the defendant's fault in publishing the statement amounted to at least negligence.

Publication, which may be written or oral, means communication to a third person who understands the defamatory meaning of the statement and its application to the person to whom reference is made. Publication need not be to the “public” at large; communication to a single individual other than the plaintiff is sufficient. Republishing a defamatory statement made by another is generally not protected.

*As a matter of law, in cases involving public figures or matters of public concern, the burden is on the plaintiff to prove falsity in a defamation action."

http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/california-defamation-law

~~~~~
BBM. I think the bolded would apply to what Dina did to the Zahau sisters. I have to research further re: what constitutes "opinions" and its legal immunity therein, and whether the number of times someone repeats their accusatory opinions over time, whether the number of different public and private arenas (media, forums, clubs, etc.) this person repeats their accusatory opinions, and whether the contexts in which this person is repeating their accusatory opinions affect whether the legal immunity of opinions still stands in a defamation suit.

It is the "statement of fact" part I was talking about. Opinions can't be the basis for a defamation action, even if you say them over and over again in every forum you can think of. Again, think about the WS posts you see every day. Would you be comfortable if, e.g., Casey Anthony could sue every WS'er who said that they believed the evidence irrefutably proved that Casey killed Caylee?
 

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
148
Guests online
3,340
Total visitors
3,488

Forum statistics

Threads
592,573
Messages
17,971,214
Members
228,821
Latest member
Pechi_eupa
Back
Top