Dan O'Donnell - Rebutting a Murderer

[CoolJ]

2 questions for you Hoosen_Fenger, if you would kindly answer:

1) did the MCSO make a commitment publically that they would not be directly involved in the investigation?
2) did Colbourn and Lenk find the majority of evidence in question?

BBM

The car, the key and the bullet. Is that not the evidence in question?

 

[Limaes]

He stated the receptionist from AutoTrader testified to this.... he was wrong. She didn't. Read her testimony. She testified on Day 2.

If what her friend said is true, I wonder why she didn't testify? I wonder why it wasn't brought up in the testimony of 2 AT workers that TH was going to quit? They begged her to go to Avery's?

Perhaps he used the word "testified" incorrectly. Looks like he has been caught out on that one.

They didn't need her testimony. They also had other witnesses that they didn't need.

 

[Limaes]

Seriously? Begging? Anyone know if People magazine pays$$$ for interviews?? Curious

Are you claiming that Teresa's longtime friend lied so she could get paid by People magazine?

 

[Limaes]

BBM

The car, the key and the bullet. Is that not the evidence in question?

Pam Sturm found the car.
Lenk, Colborn and Kucharski (spelling?) were present when the key was found.
DCI Investigators located the bullet.

 

[dexter75]

Are you claiming that Teresa's longtime friend lied so she could get paid by People magazine?

I am saying
IMO I find it hard to believe Auto Trader
" begged " for TH to go to Averys.
If this IS indeed the truth it would be great to hear straight from a rep from Auto Trader, PERIOD.
The objective of a magazine is???
Print the truth??
Sell magazines?
As far as this longtime " friend" is concerned..I truly would like to know..
Was she PAID MONEY to give this information??


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[dexter75]

Read this. Especially the quote from Jerry Pagel

http://www.postcrescent.com/story/news/2016/01/26/experts-investigators-tainted-avery-case/79065166/

Ab so frickin lute ly!!

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[Limaes]

Bolded by me

Cheeky. I see what you are doing there....... Get them little old LE fella's & KK in a studio with a blank backdrop and ask them friendly questions about Bunny Rabbits & Candy......

Then, edit the life out of their answers.....

Despite everyones opinions of KK, I think he was right not to do the show, otherwise with just some simple questions, they could have made him look very bad if they edit the way they did with Colborn.

Like most others, I do not know KK or anyone in LE personally, so my only interaction is what was on the show, and what I have researched. (some of it, in KK's case, is clearly not the sort of behaviour, that would ever see me taking the guy out for a beer.)

As for Colborn, I feel really sorry for him. He has had his name & reputation dragged through the mud by virtue of some unproven & slanderous accusations. Yes I know he did not file a report in 1993, but he was a probation officer at the time and Avery's name was not given to him. It was, above his pay grade to look into it. What did he do? He passed it to his superiors which was the right thing to do. MaM painted him to be some kind of Machiavellian agent, when actually, there were others to blame.

Wandered a little off topic there, but it is relevant to D.O. and his rebuttal because MaM only presents one side of the story. We have all been reading the case files to find out more detail about the investigation & trial and dismissing the validity of the programme in our debating positions. So perhaps, there is space for MaM - The Case For The Prosecution, that needs to be made into a show. (As long as I pick the Music.... :happy dance: )

Agree about Colborn. Btw I enjoy reading your posts. You seem to have a good grasp of the fundamentals of this case.

 

[Hoosen_Fenger]

Read this. Especially the quote from Jerry Pagel

http://www.postcrescent.com/story/news/2016/01/26/experts-investigators-tainted-avery-case/79065166/

I first read this back in January, and have read through it a couple of times since. Quite clearly, it is written from the perspective of someone that like myself, has an opinion on this case. I agree with some of it, but on the whole, it is stating what is known from other sources and layering some personal viewpoints, across. (Very much like we are doing here.)

Interestingly, there is a paragraph which actually shows that John Ferak missed a huge piece of the backdrop to Avery's defence. He writes:

'Lenk and Colborn did not realize their recurring presence at the Avery crime scene would prompt Avery's lawyers, Buting and Strang, to spin a courtroom narrative accusing them of planting blood and manufacturing false evidence, national experts said.'

Lenk & Colburn's presence did not prompt Buting & Strang to spin the framing narrative. Avery did. From his very first interviews on the TV and up in Crivitz, he was saying that he was being set up. This was before any evidence was discovered and actually, before Buting & Strang were appointed. So now, we have a high profile suspect in a case who has already been telling LE & the TV he is being set up. What other narrative were they going to spin?

I will answer your other posts here too.

Posted by CoolJ - BIBBM: I asked you those two questions because they are relevant to your post. If you don't understand the fundamentals of why Colbourn's integrity is in question, then I understand somewhat why you would have the viewpoint you do...An unfair suggestion. I know what the programme makers are getting at with Colborn, and it is misleading to say the least. Lack of understanding the fundamentals of this case ala Dan O'Donnell. Ask any of the other Sleuthers who also have differing opinions to me about my understanding of this case. They would disagree with you. They certainly would not suggest I lack an understanding of the fundamentals because of a difference of a opinion.

Posted by CoolJ - BIBBM

The car, the key and the bullet. Is that not the evidence in question? Thanks to Limaes for answering, you could have made your original question include these, as well as the Blood, the Bones, the DNA, TH's personal possessions found in his burn pit, the eye witnesses to the bonfire, the phone calls, the discrepancies in statements, the garage cleaning, Avery's lies about his activities that day, the discovery that he finished work early that day for the first time ever, that Teresa never made or received a call after he said she left the property, that Avery did not make any calls in the two hours that TH's phone was off, until he called it a 435, just after he had told his brother and Fabian that TH never turned up.... I could go on..

What does Pamela Burnstein have to do with this case? She owes him a heck of a lot more than a house IMO Well my friend, you talk about 'Fundamentals? Wow, if it were not for PB erroneously selecting him from a line up, then none of the fundamental building blocks for the framing narrative would have been formed! I included that question (which you did not answer BTW) as it sheds a light on the thought process of Avery. If he was confident of suing the State for untold millions, why did he need a rape victim who made a mistake in identifying him, to buy him a house?

Edited to correct italics.

 

[Karinna]

@Hoosen Fenger
RSBM
Well my friend, you talk about 'Fundamentals? Wow, if it were not for PB erroneously selecting him from a line up, then none of the fundamental building blocks for the framing narrative would have been formed! I included that question (which you did not answer BTW) as it sheds a light on the thought process of Avery. If he was confident of suing the State for untold millions, why did he need a rape victim who made a mistake in identifying him, to buy him a house?

Just jumping off your post
If it wasn't for the false rape conviction of SA i daresay TH would still be alive and SA & BD would never of been wrongfully incarcerated and there wouldn't have been a lawsuit for millions either.
If PB deliberately lied about SA being the perpetrator in her rape case, then i agree regardless of anything else she owes SA big time. He lost years of his life in prison.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Have to chime in on the PB buying on house statement. Really? The guy was locked up for years, he can't get a job, he has no place to live, his life has been ruined, he's in a dark place in his life and cannot move on~~so yeah I understand asking her to right his wrong. After all, she was a business owner in the area, obviously with money. I'm not saying it was right of him to do so~~but~~I understand the thought process behind it. He's trying to move on..but can't seem to go anywhere.

 

[missy1974]

I am saying
IMO I find it hard to believe Auto Trader
" begged " for TH to go to Averys.
If this IS indeed the truth it would be great to hear straight from a rep from Auto Trader, PERIOD.
The objective of a magazine is???
Print the truth??
Sell magazines?
As far as this longtime " friend" is concerned..I truly would like to know..
Was she PAID MONEY to give this information??


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2 people from AutoTrader testified, Angela and Dawn. Neither said they begged TH to go to Avery's. Neither said TH told them he creeped her out and she didn't want to go back there. Others that were close to TH testified, her mom, her brother, her sister, her ex-boyfriend, her roommate, and her co-worker. None of them said this either. IF any part of her friends story is true, that would have been pretty huge to have her testify, but she didn't. And to say they didn't need her to, I call BS, because there is no way that wouldn't have an impact during trial. They wanted to admit Dawn's hearsay testimony that TH said "ewwwwwww" when telling Dawn that SA once answered the door with a towel. (for reference, Day 2 page 59 http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...-Trial-Transcript-Day-2-2007Feb13.pdf#page=59 )

I checked the CASO reports, I don't see an interview with her friend, it could be that DCI did it and we don't have those records. But if a friend of hers had that information 10 + years ago and didn't come forward and tell investigators, she did a major disservice to her friend IMO.

 

[missy1974]

Have to chime in on the PB buying on house statement. Really? The guy was locked up for years, he can't get a job, he has no place to live, his life has been ruined, he's in a dark place in his life and cannot move on~~so yeah I understand asking her to right his wrong. After all, she was a business owner in the area, obviously with money. I'm not saying it was right of him to do so~~but~~I understand the thought process behind it. He's trying to move on..but can't seem to go anywhere.

:wave: Hi BCA!

Yeah, I think he asked her for money... to buy a house, but yes, I agree with you, I might not agree with SA asking, but I can see why he would or thought it was okay to do so. He's not known for making good decision. JMO

 

[CoolJ]

:wave: Hi BCA!

Yeah, I think he asked her for money... to buy a house, but yes, I agree with you, I might not agree with SA asking, but I can see why he would or thought it was okay to do so. He's not known for making good decision. JMO

She probably asked him... "Is there anything I can do for you?" .... He answered her... So what? What in the world does this have to do with this case?

 

[CoolJ]

I first read this back in January, and have read through it a couple of times since. Quite clearly, it is written from the perspective of someone that like myself, has an opinion on this case. I agree with some of it, but on the whole, it is stating what is known from other sources and layering some personal viewpoints, across. (Very much like we are doing here.)

Interestingly, there is a paragraph which actually shows that John Ferak missed a huge piece of the backdrop to Avery's defence. He writes:

'Lenk and Colborn did not realize their recurring presence at the Avery crime scene would prompt Avery's lawyers, Buting and Strang, to spin a courtroom narrative accusing them of planting blood and manufacturing false evidence, national experts said.'

Lenk & Colburn's presence did not prompt Buting & Strang to spin the framing narrative. Avery did. From his very first interviews on the TV and up in Crivitz, he was saying that he was being set up. This was before any evidence was discovered and actually, before Buting & Strang were appointed. So now, we have a high profile suspect in a case who has already been telling LE & the TV he is being set up. What other narrative were they going to spin?

I will answer your other posts here too.

Posted by CoolJ - BIBBM: I asked you those two questions because they are relevant to your post. If you don't understand the fundamentals of why Colbourn's integrity is in question, then I understand somewhat why you would have the viewpoint you do...An unfair suggestion. I know what the programme makers are getting at with Colborn, and it is misleading to say the least. Lack of understanding the fundamentals of this case ala Dan O'Donnell. Ask any of the other Sleuthers who also have differing opinions to me about my understanding of this case. They would disagree with you. They certainly would not suggest I lack an understanding of the fundamentals because of a difference of a opinion.

Posted by CoolJ - BIBBM

The car, the key and the bullet. Is that not the evidence in question? Thanks to Limaes for answering, you could have made your original question include these, as well as the Blood, the Bones, the DNA, TH's personal possessions found in his burn pit, the eye witnesses to the bonfire, the phone calls, the discrepancies in statements, the garage cleaning, Avery's lies about his activities that day, the discovery that he finished work early that day for the first time ever, that Teresa never made or received a call after he said she left the property, that Avery did not make any calls in the two hours that TH's phone was off, until he called it a 435, just after he had told his brother and Fabian that TH never turned up.... I could go on..

What does Pamela Burnstein have to do with this case? She owes him a heck of a lot more than a house IMO Well my friend, you talk about 'Fundamentals? Wow, if it were not for PB erroneously selecting him from a line up, then none of the fundamental building blocks for the framing narrative would have been formed! I included that question (which you did not answer BTW) as it sheds a light on the thought process of Avery. If he was confident of suing the State for untold millions, why did he need a rape victim who made a mistake in identifying him, to buy him a house?

Edited to correct italics.

The perspective of the author is irrelevant because the points I was making were based on quotes from those close to the case.

The fundamentals I am suggesting you could freshen up on, or at least admit to, is the commonly known fact that Lenk and Colbourn (and the rest of the MCSO cabal) were not supposed to be directly involved with the investigation. Before I go any further in this debate I have to ask... Do you agree with that or not?

 

[missy1974]

Here is a great article from John Ferak, he breaks down the evidence and who was involved with finding/recovering it.

http://www.postcrescent.com/story/news/2016/05/26/avery-evidence-conflict-interest/84487252/

 

[CoolJ]

Here is a great article from John Ferak, he breaks down the evidence and who was involved with finding/recovering it.

http://www.postcrescent.com/story/news/2016/05/26/avery-evidence-conflict-interest/84487252/

Thanks for this one. I hadn't seen it before.
MCSO sure did play a big part in recovery of evidence didn't they.

How some folks don't find this suspicious is totally beyond me. I mean those with ulterior motives, I get it. But how the average Joe, seemingly intellectually intelligent enough, don't see the red flags...I'm not sure I will ever understand that.

 

[missy1974]

Thanks for this one. I hadn't seen it before.
MCSO sure did play a big part in recovery of evidence didn't they.

How some folks don't find this suspicious is totally beyond me. I mean those with ulterior motives, I get it. But how the average Joe, seemingly intellectually intelligent enough, don't see the red flags...I'm not sure I will ever understand that.

No problem. Your last post reminded me that he wrote that article.

Here is a link to his other articles, not all about this case, but quite a few. http://www.postcrescent.com/staff/11533/john-ferak/

He is one of the very few, if not the only journalist, that has actually read the documents and has been willing to dig a bit deeper. JMO

 

[dexter75]

Have to chime in on the PB buying on house statement. Really? The guy was locked up for years, he can't get a job, he has no place to live, his life has been ruined, he's in a dark place in his life and cannot move on~~so yeah I understand asking her to right his wrong. After all, she was a business owner in the area, obviously with money. I'm not saying it was right of him to do so~~but~~I understand the thought process behind it. He's trying to move on..but can't seem to go anywhere.

Was just thinking the same, BCA❤
Dark and desperate times for Avery then.
I wonder..if folks can really appreciate the depths of despair..the places even HIS mind went ( I DO believe he is " off " in regards to his mental & emotional health )during the times when he was serving a PRISON SENTENCE and was innocent!
I don't care if it was 6 months..6 years..12 years..
Can ANY ONE OF YOU imagine what that must have felt like?
Being arrested, but thinking " oh, I'll be fine I can account for the time this rape happened "
Then..going to TRIAL because POOF..you look just like the guy!
At this point still thinking " I'll be ok..there are over a DOZEN PEOPLE who can verify where I was and what I was doing "
Are you all still with me?
😉
CONVICTED!
Anyone read the appeals from THAT case??
IMO
He should have been out LONG BEFORE the frickin pubic hair...
I won't bore you all or upset myself with the " small " things overlooked & the blind eyes and ones who turned the other way back in the 80's...(
Deep breaths..
So yep..I get it. I SO get how desperate he must have felt with the
" all she can say is NO "
mindset.
What did the man have to lose at that point?
His nerve? Pride?
?
Nothing. He had it all TAKEN away...as did PB as did EVERY OTHER WOMAN violated by Gregory Allen..


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[IDK]

Was just thinking the same, BCA❤
Dark and desperate times for Avery then.
I wonder..if folks can really appreciate the depths of despair..the places even HIS mind went ( I DO believe he is " off " in regards to his mental & emotional health )during the times when he was serving a PRISON SENTENCE and was innocent!
I don't care if it was 6 months..6 years..12 years..
Can ANY ONE OF YOU imagine what that must have felt like?
Being arrested, but thinking " oh, I'll be fine I can account for the time this rape happened "
Then..going to TRIAL because POOF..you look just like the guy!
At this point still thinking " I'll be ok..there are over a DOZEN PEOPLE who can verify where I was and what I was doing "
Are you all still with me?

CONVICTED!
Anyone read the appeals from THAT case??
IMO
He should have been out LONG BEFORE the frickin pubic hair...
I won't bore you all or upset myself with the " small " things overlooked & the blind eyes and ones who turned the other way back in the 80's...(
Deep breaths..
So yep..I get it. I SO get how desperate he must have felt with the
" all she can say is NO "
mindset.
What did the man have to lose at that point?
His nerve? Pride?
?
Nothing. He had it all TAKEN away...as did PB as did EVERY OTHER WOMAN violated by Gregory Allen..


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:yourock: I totally agree with you and BCA. Just because someone may not have the best judgment at times (can't we all admit to that, honestly?) it is absolutely no indication of guilt or tendencies to murder. There is so much bias against SA, it totally amazes me. I feel that if someone is not able to put themselves in SA's shoes for even one short nanosecond, that shows me they are truly biased, and not proceeding with an open mind. IMO.

 

[Limaes]

He should not have been contacting her...period.