Deaths of Male College Students-General Discussion #6

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I don't mean to be pestering you @Reachingfornettles, it's just that you are the only person I've ever encountered who was drugged at a bar, inexplicably ended up at the water, and lived to tell about it, so I was really hoping for some insight on what got you to the water. That's why I had asked if you know, from phone records maybe, if you were on your phone during the time you walked to the dock. It was the Zach Marr case that was so unsettling to me, and really made me think that something is drawing these men to the water, and it's not the urge to pee in it. After not being let back in a bar in Boston (a city he was not familiar with) and contacting his cousin to come out and meet him, which she agreed to do, Zach walked off instead of waiting for her. There are surveillance photos of him on the street outside a market talking on his phone, then he walked away while still on the phone, without a coat, on a dangerously cold February night. He walked a considerable distance, trespassed onto a bridge maintenance walkway, and reportedly was seen on CCTV "entering the water." I think his death was classified as a suicide, but the extreme oddness of the circumstances did not convince me of that. Especially with so many other young men (in Boston and so many other places) also mysteriously being drawn to the water and "entering" it by some means. I believe Zach's case is unusual because his actual "entrance" into the water was caught on CCTV. I've become a bit obsessed with trying to discover if being on the phone is a commonality in these cases. Is the "formula" bar + alcohol spiked with a drug + separation from companions / removal from bar + phone conversation + mysterious walk to water = "enter" the water and drown? MOO.
 
No problem answering questions, it still lingers, because its lost time and not much memory. I had one drink and within a half hour i was at the dock. I dont recall calling anyone, tho i could have. I didnt even know my ride left me until the next day. I wonder if the setting in of the drug has the brain saying "whats going on ?"..."your not safe" and escaping the loud music and people. I felt very fimiliar with where i was at. I cant remember and it is so scary. Never left a drink alone and never accepted one again. Learned the hard way. I must add that nothing i watched myself doing made any sense. IMO
 
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Reachingfornettles said:
No problem answering questions, it still lingers, because its lost time and not much memory. I had one drink and within a half hour i was at the dock. I dont recall calling anyone, tho i could have. I didnt even know my ride left me until the next day. I wonder if the setting in of the drug has the brain saying "whats going on ?"..."your not safe" and escaping the loud music and people. I felt very fimiliar with where i was at. I cant remember and it is so scary. Never left a drink alone and never accepted one again. Learned the hard way. I must add that nothing i watched myself doing made any sense. IMO
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Thanks for your answer! I realize it wasn't easy to piece together what you did. How horrible that your ride left you! So glad that under the terrible circumstances that things didn't turn out worse than they did.

I've noticed that cell phones are often a part of, or at least present in, these strange scenarios, even with some haunting and terrifying last calls from victims. I've even heard some strange theories about phones in regard to these "drownings," so I'm very curious if phones are "used" in the victimization or are merely coincidental to it because almost everyone carries one.

Also, I'm wondering if there are actually two different groups of young, male "drowning" victims. One group being the cases investigated by the Smiley Face team in the Oxygen series. In the five episodes I've watched, the investigators make the case that the victims were abducted, held for a period of time, killed and then placed in water, meaning they didn't fall in and drown. The second group, which wasn't included in the Oxygen series, are young males who actually did drown after inexplicably leaving a bar or party and going on foot, usually out of their way, to find and "enter" the water. Both scenarios are tragic and terrifying, and not being properly investigated by LE. MOO.

Anyone else have any thoughts on the "two different groups" theory?
 
Reachingfornettles said:
No problem answering questions, it still lingers, because its lost time and not much memory. I had one drink and within a half hour i was at the dock. I dont recall calling anyone, tho i could have. I didnt even know my ride left me until the next day. I wonder if the setting in of the drug has the brain saying "whats going on ?"..."your not safe" and escaping the loud music and people. I felt very fimiliar with where i was at. I cant remember and it is so scary. Never left a drink alone and never accepted one again. Learned the hard way. I must add that nothing i watched myself doing made any sense. IMO
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My heavens, reachingfornettles. Your story is terrifying! I'm so glad nothing further happened to you. We have to watch everything these days.... Such a shame we have to, but evil can be lurking in the most innocent of places. Thank you for sharing what happened to you with us. A good reminder to always be vigilant. Stay safe and well - Emma
 
Thank you Emma, It was many years ago, say early 2000's yet it had a profound effect and even more an awakening to the fact that it can happen to me just like that. I have also wondered if the drug makes the body heat up and therefore needing the water or air to cool off , or maybe the breathing changes and they feel as though an open space is going to help? JMO
 
Reachingfornettles said:
Thank you Emma, It was many years ago, say early 2000's yet it had a profound effect and even more an awakening to the fact that it can happen to me just like that. I have also wondered if the drug makes the body heat up and therefore needing the water or air to cool off , or maybe the breathing changes and they feel as though an open space is going to help? JMO
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Great observations regarding possible effects the drug could have on a person. Again, thank you for your insight.
 
IHAVENOCLUE said:
I have been intrigued with these "so called" "Smiley Face Killers" cases for years...

though... And as others have pointed out... I don't think the graffiti is really a marker anymore...

The mystery of a certain demographics of young, adult, fairly successful males ending up deceased in bodies of water is just TOO coincidental to remain not investigated...

I read through parts of this great "collection" of cases...
And the connected comments and questions...

A question I had NOT thought of before...
Which I also believe to be quite compelling...
Is that these cases seemed not to exist...
Or at least in such great numbers...
Prior to a certain year(s)...(was it 1996?)...

Good work Sleuthers!
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I will originally thought the same thing that the first case was Patrick McNeil 1997 however I am doing research on the cases for a podcast and It dates back further than that I saw 1993 cases that matched. so who knows
 
KerrinA said:
I will originally thought the same thing that the first case was Patrick McNeil 1997 however I am doing research on the cases for a podcast and It dates back further than that I saw 1993 cases that matched. so who knows
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Are you able to post the name and episode / date of the podcast here? Thanks.
 
I just watched the Todd Geib episode. I wasn't familiar with this case. It was great that a forensic biologist did an experiment with pigs in a lake that showed that after 3 weeks, a body would be almost completely decomposed. Between no composition on the body and the amount of drugs in his body, it's clearly a murder.

This disappearance/murder is much like the other cases. What I can't make sense of is how a smiley face gang or single killer would know about the private party in the orchard from which Todd disappeared. It's one thing to walk into a bar in a city and target someone there, but how do you do that at a private party? Another possibility is that he was randomly picked up at the highway. It's very strange.
 
Kip said:
I just watched the Todd Geib episode. I wasn't familiar with this case. It was great that a forensic biologist did an experiment with pigs in a lake that showed that after 3 weeks, a body would be almost completely decomposed. Between no composition on the body and the amount of drugs in his body, it's clearly a murder.

This disappearance/murder is much like the other cases. What I can't make sense of is how a smiley face gang or single killer would know about the private party in the orchard from which Todd disappeared. It's one thing to walk into a bar in a city and target someone there, but how do you do that at a private party? Another possibility is that he was randomly picked up at the highway. It's very strange.
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I've wondered the same thing about the private party cases. A number of other "drowning" cases involved young men leaving college parties rather than bars, especially some of the early upper Mid-West cases. That's part of what has caused me to wonder about two different groups of victims, as I posted about / asked about on the last page. (Nobody responded.) I think a criminal gang may be responsible for some of these many strange "river deaths," but not all. The Oxygen series has focused on the cases that have very strong evidence that the victim was killed before being disposed of in a body of water. However, there are so many others with very strange circumstances that are not so easily explained or neatly proven with forensics.

In Dakota James' case, there was the frightening and troubling incident a few weeks before his disappearance in which his friend picked him up, sobbing, frightened and disoriented, from a hotel just as he was about to enter a vehicle. He refused to tell her what had happened. IIRC, that night he had been out drinking with a group of friends / co-workers, and the night he disappeared he was also out with a group of many of the same people. Please correct me if I am misremembering this. That group seems suspicious to me. However, Dakota had a respectable job, was in school, and was not known to be in a gang or involved in criminal activities. This group of "friends" and associates really intrigues me, but this aspect of his disappearance was not addressed in the Oxygen episode, that I recall. MOO.
Anyone else have thoughts on this?
 
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I feel confident in saying that the cases covered on the Oxygen series all involve homicide. But it's a stretch to think that all of these cases are all connected to one group. But it's not a stretch to think that there might be people across the country who share the same goals, similar tactics. We accept that women are the victims of serial killers, and we know some things that make them vulnerable and where predators hunt. Why can't that be true of the deaths of these men?
 
I've been doing a lot of reading on the Columbine massacre as part of a research project. Experts say that event was a turning point in school mass violence, largely because so many other subsequent killers were inspired by and revered the Columbine killers. It strikes me that a similar process may be at work with these murders of young men. Reading about the killings inspires others to look for young men who are vulnerable or those who can be surreptitiously drugged and then abducted.
 
pittsburghgirl said:
I've been doing a lot of reading on the Columbine massacre as part of a research project. Experts say that event was a turning point in school mass violence, largely because so many other subsequent killers were inspired by and revered the Columbine killers. It strikes me that a similar process may be at work with these murders of young men. Reading about the killings inspires others to look for young men who are vulnerable or those who can be surreptitiously drugged and then abducted.
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I agree that there are likely numerous explanations / causes for the "drowning men." We know there have been serial killers of men and boys, and that "copy cat" crime is a very real phenomenon, to name just two other possibilities. I'm keeping an open mind about all theories and will continue to keep an eye on these cases. MOO.
 
savagewoman said:
Podcast Tim Dillon
Interviewing a possible survivor of smiley case killer


Not sure if this was already posted. Very interesting but long
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I'm unfamiliar with the comic, who's certainly not a legitimate investigator, but the survivor story from his guest was very interesting. The survivor claimed to have been told by the Smiley Face detectives who are doing the Oxygen series that the attack he survived was definitely a Smiley Face attack. However, unlike the cases presented in the Oxygen series, this male college student was apparently left on a dam to fall into a river and drown, rather than held for a period of time, killed and disposed of in water. Therefore, his case, assuming it is true, is an example of my "two-different-kinds-of-killings" theory--actual drownings versus murder victims disposed of in water. I remember at least one case, years ago, of a college student waking up in a river many hours after leaving a bar, and convinced that he had been drugged, abducted and put into the river, not walked there and fallen in.

In spite of the two groups of victims with different manners of death, I suppose the same "organization" of killers could be responsible for both. However, there are certainly some very strange scenarios and details in some of the disappearances and deaths. The other striking difference from the cases on Oxygen that I watched, was that this victim was left locked inside an extremely secure area, so there was no way he just wandered into it while drunk, as has been claimed in most of the "drowning" cases.

The comic's most interesting observation, as a self-described "degenerate alcoholic" who used a lot of drugs in his youth, and hung out with similar types, was that in spite of living on Long Island surrounded by all kinds of water, nobody he knew drowned, or rarely even fell into the water. MOO.
 
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Exactly. Until a few years ago, I lived along three majors rivers all of my life and never recall young people getting drunk and falling in the river. There have been kids know to be on the river or around it who have disappeared, presumed drowned, or who were later found. But the circumstances weren't mysterious.
 
What are sleuthers' thoughts on the recovery of Achim's body from the river? Sadly, it's what I expected from day one.
I would like to know:
  • Cause of death--is there water in his lungs?
  • Stage of decomposition--does it match the length of time he was missing?
  • Toxicology results--any drugs? If so, what?
  • Any marks on the body?
 
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