Defending a pathological/habitual liar

[Pattymarie]

I did some searching on this forum and online and can't find anything on who are those that will be prosecuting Casey? Their credentials, background, past cases, etc. If I remember OJ correctly, these are the people that were the major players in laying out the case. I hope and pray that those on this team are very good at what they do.

 

[maryaok]

Attorneys are not bothered at all about the truth of what their clients did, all they care about is defending them against charges, that's their job, and they learn not to become emotionally involved with what the client has done. There's even a debate as to whether or not an attorney has to say if he knows where a murdered body has been hidden, and I wondered if JB knew long ago where Caylee's remains were. That would put him in a hard place, because if he comes out and says he knows, that incriminates his client, if he doesn't say anything, and the bar finds out, that is bad for him. I think in some states they have to report if they know where a missing body is, but in other states, they don't. I wondered a while back if JB knew, and he was the one who started the daisy chain to Kronk, because if the body were found, then he'd be out of his pickle, and its not his concern any more. I think he knows the truth about Casey and how she is, and its not a concern to him, one way or another.

 

[Indigo]

Whenever I get feisty about the defense role, I try to remember this interview with Alan Dershowitz. It helps. Well a little. lol ...

Q. But ultimately you felt that being on the defense, you were on the right side?


Well, you're on the right side if you think of your role as making it hard for the government to prosecute people and making them overcome a very, very heavy burden. But sometimes you lose sleep at night. You say to yourself: "What am I doing? Why did I go to college and law school, and why have I been doing all this? Is it to simply help the process work? Aren't I entitled to think about whether I'm on the right side of the particular case here?"

And every lawyer who's also a good person has these ambivalences, and then you have to stop and think, I have a role in the process. I'm like a priest, and when somebody confesses to a priest, the priest doesn't think of himself as a member of society who immediately goes on television and says, "Let me tell you what my penitent told me in confidence." You know you have a role to perform; your role is as a priest. My role is as a defense attorney, and we each have to have a different morality, a role morality, if we're going to perform our role in the way that we're supposed to.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/oj/interviews/dershowitz.html

 

[Spangle]

How do you do it? Where do you begin? If you are a lawyer and all of your evidence opposes your client's claims, how do you even put something together that will A) defend your client AND B) abide by your client's instruction??

If KC sticks with her ZG defense, how on earth can the Dream Team support that? Or do they? Do they go in another direction and explain KC away as a pathology so she never has to testify?

For the most part, the lying is a mute point. It just means that her verbal comments will not stand on their own, without proof. (no one would believe her). In most cases, that is no different when a person is being tried in a court of law. Their comments have to be proven factual.

We heard alot of 'storys' from her that are lies. Shocking that a person would tell such stories.

But it will be up to the State to prove that a murder happened and that KC did it. They will be showing evidence to back up their statements.

Her lawyer doesn't have to defend every comment she made. He only has to prove what the state is saying, is false.

The lies are grouped up there with those dancing and parting pictures. It will come to play when trying to impress to the jury that his client is a 'nice girl' and wouldn't do that. That she is a 'good mother' , etc. THAT sort of stuff does have sway on wither a jury believes the states evidence, etc.

WE are all yacking about the horrable stuff (gossip) in this case. But when it comes court room time, it will be about the evidence, etc. the stuff in the investigation threads. Dealing with the who/what/when/where of this case.

 

[azwriter]

I would think the way to defend a liar is to prove through testimony that everyone else involved in the case are lairs, too.
The thing is - the defense does not really have to prove anything. It's up to the prosecution to prove (beyond a reasonable doubt) that Casey did murder her daughter. It's always up to the jury to come to a conclusion depending on how they view the evidence.
I doubt though, JB has the skill to participate in a murder case. That's why I believe before trial, (which could be a year away) Casey will take a plea deal. And JB will milk this all for publicity and exposure he can get.
I guess, what I'm doing is making a prediction about the outcome of this case.
azwriter.

 

[maryaok]

WE are all yacking about the horrable stuff (gossip) in this case. But when it comes court room time, it will be about the evidence, etc. the stuff in the investigation threads. Dealing with the who/what/when/where of this case.

You're right there, in this case, the evidence is going to speak for itself. If everyone does their job correctly, and to the best of their ability, justice will be served. In OJ's case, the evidence was not handled correctly, people did not do their jobs correctly. Justice was served, therefore, in that the defendant couldn't be found guilty.

 

[HRCODEPINK]

My first thought when I read the question was to call H Lee. I don't think JB ever even considered "winning" this case, and I can't imagine how he is going to defend her. For that matter I think that ummm it will be tedious ummm and interesting ummmm to see him ahhhhh question the ummmm witnesses, myself! That alone will be a big enough challenge for JB.

 

[chefmom]

Hmmm! I thought JB already had a story to tell us that would make everyone see and understand what was really going on. At least, that is what he said before the baby's body was found. For the life of me, I can't understand why he hasn't filled everyone in on this. Since the baby is gone, there is clearly no need to "protect" her anymore, and I don't think any of the remaining characters would be worried about anything but bringing justice to this precious child. JMO, of course.

 

[Spangle]

You're right there, in this case, the evidence is going to speak for itself. If everyone does their job correctly, and to the best of their ability, justice will be served. In OJ's case, the evidence was not handled correctly, people did not do their jobs correctly. Justice was served, therefore, in that the defendant couldn't be found guilty.

I agree 100% with you. In my opinion, OJ was guilty. But the jury did the right thing. We can't send people to jail based upon 'opinion'. We should do so based upon evidence.

As sad as it was, that OJ walked free.. The legal system learned something. We the people expect them to handle their job a little more honestly, correctly, etc. To many innocent folks get sent to jail. We NEED them to collect evidence in a serious and correct manor. No more just walking through a crime scene, not paying attention to where your walking or what you are touching.

It was slow, but eventually, the rest of the "PD's" learned they had to watch their p's and q's. The OJ case did have an impact. For the better. I"m sorry that OJ got to walk, for that to happen. But I believe our system is better, cleaner for it. Labs are more careful. Evidence is collected better and stored better, etc.

Over all, I think it's funny that JB is all ready questioning the labs, etc. Trying to smear them before the trial starts. Which gives the LE, etc. a chance to also show proof of how good they are. What they do to ensure the quality of their work. The work isn't as shoddy as it was back in OJ's trial's time.

 

[itsyourworld]

For the most part, the lying is a mute point. *snipped*

if only the lies had been mute. the word is moot, and they are far from it. lies are the very foundation we all must now dig ourselves into in order to figure out what the heck happened to Caylee.

 

[mes1955]

crime statistics suggest that it is rare for a person to go from petty theft and lying to murder. i think with the evidence as presented right now, casey's defense doesn't need to come up with a plausible nanny story. they just need to come up with a plausible story where casey isn't the last person to have had caylee and that a traumatic event made her block out who really took her and maybe they should look to the film evidence as provided by casey's mother to see who that last person is most likely to be.
i'm not saying it's right, but i'm saying they don't need any nanny story to create reasonable doubt.

IYW...Happy to see someone thinking "outside the box". The obvious is the obvious--it's the not so obvious that gets innocent people put behind bars. The truth of the matter is that there are a lot of gaps that need to be filled in, and the harder the attorneys work towards that end, the better for everyone. That KC lied is the obvious...why she did is what good lawyers on both sides needs to find out--and not just through assumptions.

 

[passionflower]

My grandma had a saying.........liar,thief,murder...............in that order......why?
I have no idea. But all murderers seem to lie about something, steal something
(someone's love or a material thing)
Just never know.
Maybe a wing should be added to the jail to house the rest of the family............
so far they have just been caught with lies and making money from Caylees death.........
I guess those are not crimes yet. IMO

 

[HRCODEPINK]

crime statistics suggest that it is rare for a person to go from petty theft and lying to murder. i think with the evidence as presented right now, casey's defense doesn't need to come up with a plausible nanny story. they just need to come up with a plausible story where casey isn't the last person to have had caylee and that a traumatic event made her block out who really took her and maybe they should look to the film evidence as provided by casey's mother to see who that last person is most likely to be.
i'm not saying it's right, but i'm saying they don't need any nanny story to create reasonable doubt.

Crime statistics also have a long list of characteristics for women who murder their children, including leaving them within 10 miles of the home and wrapping them in a womb like manner. IIRC we discussed this on another thread and she fit those statistic like a glove. The fact that she has never been caught by LE for serious crimes will not, IMO help her defense at all.

 

[radio]

Hmmm! I thought JB already had a story to tell us that would make everyone see and understand what was really going on. At least, that is what he said before the baby's body was found. For the life of me, I can't understand why he hasn't filled everyone in on this. Since the baby is gone, there is clearly no need to "protect" her anymore, and I don't think any of the remaining characters would be worried about anything but bringing justice to this precious child. JMO, of course.

I think LP has the decency to wait until this child is buried.
A lot haven't.

 

[mes1955]

My grandma had a saying.........liar,thief,murder...............in that order......why?
I have no idea. But all murderers seem to lie about something, steal something
(someone's love or a material thing)
Just never know.
Maybe a wing should be added to the jail to house the rest of the family............
so far they have just been caught with lies and making money from Caylees death.........
I guess those are not crimes yet. IMO

Over the years, I have known liars with superior abilities to convice people that most everything they said was true. Do you think I should turn them in to cold-case investigators? What you are seeming to say is that it's probable that these acquaintances of mine have left a trail of bodies over the Eastern half of the U.S...:waitasec:

 

[costalpilot]

I think LP has the decency to wait until this child is buried.
A lot haven't.

Your serious? You think he has a story?

________________

All it takes is one. In LA they found an entire jury willing to disregard the facts and go for whatever smoke Henry Lee and Baden and other bought and paid for "experts" were blowing. Spector's juror expert may well have fingered the foreman. Surely the well know KC will have an "expert" juror consultant.

Even now, there are intelligent, knowledgeable websleuthers who would not vote for conviction with all WE know now.(Not many, but a few). And if they put the DP back on the table, that opens the door for the moral absolutists, who would willingly vote NG in order to prevent a DP judgement, and who would lie their way onto a jury in order to do so.

otoh...the DA will keep trying her till 12 reasonable people put her away forever, no matter what it takes.

IMO.

 

[biggirl]

She really thinks she is going to get out of this, like her parents have always gotten her out of her crimes before.

You hit the nail on the head. I really believe that KC really is in denial about how serious this whole "trial" thing is. She has always been able to get out of anything with her lies. temper tantrums and it worked for her then, so why not now?

As shocked as all of us were that she went so far as to go into Universal with the police, knowing that she did not work there speaks volumes. She really thought she could talk her way out of it.

Her demeanor in the Court room also says that this is all an inconvenience to her but she will beat it. JMHO as always

 

[concentric]

gitana1 -

Thanks for that insight.

So the player is being played (she doesn't know it yet). That is a hellish situation.

 

[Searchfortruth]

I would think it would be hard for an attorney to defend a client who tells lies as much as KC. I know criminals lie, that's not uncommon, but I would think a defense attorney would need to know the truth about certain things. I have heard about attorney's not wanting to know the truth, and I believe this would put them at a grave disadvantage in the court room.

 

[capps]

I know I could never do it. I know me..after three days of trying to reason with this pathological liar with no success...I'd slap her good and hard in the face,and dramatically slam the jail door with a thunderous bang as I exited.