Did JonBenet Have A Nosebleed The Night She Died?

[rashomon]

I don't think JonBenet was sexually assaulted, she was sexually manipulated. They wanted you to think she was sexually assaulted. Parents don't sexually assault their children in that way, intruders do. If you look at the number of people on the forums who believe JonBenet was sexually assaulted, you have to conclude that part of the staging was a brilliant move by the Ramsey's.

Children suffer from emotional injuries when they are sexually abused by family members, not physical injuries. People keep moving prior sexual abuse to the front of the line in concerns for the Ramsey's that night. Wouldn't the injury to JonBenet's head be 1,000,000 times more important to explain than some possible abrasions to her genital's that you need a microscope to see or might not be there at all.

Patsy frequently took JonBenet to a doctor so how could she have any concern over sexual abuse being discovered? And Patsy was there that night making decisions.

Burke and prior sexual abuse need to be put in a box and put away in storage, they only clutter up what may have happened that night. If the decision makers there that night were involved in prior sexual abuse to JonBenet, why on earth would they do anything to cause greater scrutiny in that area.

It seems to me, if the head wound hadn't happened, JonBenet would still be alive today, prior sexual abuse or not.

Eexcellent points, Albert!

 

[UKGuy]

I don't think JonBenet was sexually assaulted, she was sexually manipulated. They wanted you to think she was sexually assaulted. Parents don't sexually assault their children in that way, intruders do. If you look at the number of people on the forums who believe JonBenet was sexually assaulted, you have to conclude that part of the staging was a brilliant move by the Ramsey's.

Children suffer from emotional injuries when they are sexually abused by family members, not physical injuries. People keep moving prior sexual abuse to the front of the line in concerns for the Ramsey's that night. Wouldn't the injury to JonBenet's head be 1,000,000 times more important to explain than some possible abrasions to her genital's that you need a microscope to see or might not be there at all.

Patsy frequently took JonBenet to a doctor so how could she have any concern over sexual abuse being discovered? And Patsy was there that night making decisions.

Burke and prior sexual abuse need to be put in a box and put away in storage, they only clutter up what may have happened that night. If the decision makers there that night were involved in prior sexual abuse to JonBenet, why on earth would they do anything to cause greater scrutiny in that area.

It seems to me, if the head wound hadn't happened, JonBenet would still be alive today, prior sexual abuse or not.

Albert18,

It seems to me, if the head wound hadn't happened, JonBenet would still be alive today, prior sexual abuse or not.

Thats assuming her head injury was the cause of death.

I don't think JonBenet was sexually assaulted, she was sexually manipulated.

The forensic evidence does not agree with your thinking, JonBenet was both sexually assaulted and chronically sexually abused.

They wanted you to think she was sexually assaulted.

JonBenet was wiped down, blood was removed from her genitals, and possibly semen, her size-6 underwear were removed, she was redressed in a clean pair of size-12 underwear, all intended to hide any signs of a sexual assault, contrary to your quote.


.

 

[Solace]

Albert18,

Thats assuming her head injury was the cause of death.


The forensic evidence does not agree with your thinking, JonBenet was both sexually assaulted and chronically sexually abused.


JonBenet was wiped down, blood was removed from her genitals, and possibly semen, her size-6 underwear were removed, she was redressed in a clean pair of size-12 underwear, all intended to hide any signs of a sexual assault, contrary to your quote.


.

John and Patsy did a great job. They have you believing exactly what they wanted you to. Sexual abuse, therefore it is not the parents - no parent would do that. Just what the Grand Jury believed. And they are free.

 

[Toltec]

The forensic evidence found at thre crime scene strongly implicates Patsy Ramsey in the basement staging: fibers from her jacket were found in the wrappings of the garrote, in the paint tote and on the duct tape. Both the knots and the garrote were clumsily done, and John Ramsey himself said in DOI that if he had staged the scene, he would have done a far better job. Imo this was one the few times where he told the truth ......

I believe Patsy found the cord in JAR's room. She then uses a paring knife to cut the cord on JonBenet's bed, while JonBenet lies there, unconcious.

She then carries JonBenet to the basement.

 

[JMO8778]

The forensic evidence found at thre crime scene strongly implicates Patsy Ramsey in the basement staging: fibers from her jacket were found in the wrappings of the garrote, in the paint tote and on the duct tape. Both the knots and the garrote were clumsily done, and John Ramsey himself said in DOI that if he had staged the scene, he would have done a far better job. Imo this was one the few times where he told the truth ......

could be,but I think the rope and tape came from an AG doll.JR could have told her to go find these items,and she did.I can't explain her fibers in the tote,but would PR know how to tie such a knot?I don't know, but JR could have been there instructing her on how to do it.
How to explain JR's shirt fibers in her crotch area?It seems he was there for some of the staging,at least from the waist down,he did that much?It seems he wanted to cover up past abuse?
OR is it possible JB was molested b/f the head wound occured,and he had nothing to do with that,but the fiber evidence was left on her due to that?

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I believe Patsy found the cord in JAR's room. She then uses a paring knife to cut the cord on JonBenet's bed, while JonBenet lies there, unconcious.

She then carries JonBenet to the basement.

I'd believe that.

 

[Ames]

The forensic evidence found at thre crime scene strongly implicates Patsy Ramsey in the basement staging: fibers from her jacket were found in the wrappings of the garrote, in the paint tote and on the duct tape. Both the knots and the garrote were clumsily done, and John Ramsey himself said in DOI that if he had staged the scene, he would have done a far better job. Imo this was one the few times where he told the truth ......

Thats true...I keep forgetting about them finding those pesky fibers that came from PR jacket wrapped in the garrote. So, she had to have at least been down there during the staging at SOME point....and those fibers points to HER being the one that made the garrote. imo She could have made it, and John could have used it..

 

[JMO8778]

Thats true...I keep forgetting about them finding those pesky fibers that came from PR jacket wrapped in the garrote. So, she had to have at least been down there during the staging at SOME point....and those fibers points to HER being the one that made the garrote. imo She could have made it, and John could have used it..

I think JR did step in at some point,and did the final staging..at least from the waist down.(if not a bit more?)
It sounds like when he came back up from doing that,that's when he and PR were screaming,as she admitted?

 

[JMO8778]

I believe Patsy found the cord in JAR's room. She then uses a paring knife to cut the cord on JonBenet's bed, while JonBenet lies there, unconcious.

She then carries JonBenet to the basement.

I think it might have been BR's knife,that LHP hid from him in a cabinet.It was found in the basement,not far from JB.

 

[JMO8778]

Thats true...I keep forgetting about them finding those pesky fibers that came from PR jacket wrapped in the garrote. So, she had to have at least been down there during the staging at SOME point....and those fibers points to HER being the one that made the garrote. imo She could have made it, and John could have used it..

could be,he would have been more able to do that(?)He helped her finish the crime, possibly.

 

[JMO8778]

John and Patsy did a great job. They have you believing exactly what they wanted you to. Sexual abuse, therefore it is not the parents - no parent would do that. Just what the Grand Jury believed. And they are free.

Sometimes I think the rest of us are being too naive as well..by that I mean that some think it was all an accident.what if it wasn't? that doesn't mean it was planned,but,what if someone,in the spur of the moment,decided to kill her?From the looks of the head wound,I just have a hard time thinking accident.

 

[JMO8778]

Albert18,

Thats assuming her head injury was the cause of death.


The forensic evidence does not agree with your thinking, JonBenet was both sexually assaulted and chronically sexually abused.


JonBenet was wiped down, blood was removed from her genitals, and possibly semen, her size-6 underwear were removed, she was redressed in a clean pair of size-12 underwear, all intended to hide any signs of a sexual assault, contrary to your quote.


.

and to hide a motive for her murder as well?I don't discount it.JR's fiber evidence is more damning than PR's is,IMO,as far as a motive is concerned.that would also go along with her comment 'We didn't mean for this to happen'. I don't think she was talking about JB and the soiling incidents when she said it.

 

[JMO8778]

I agree. I am starting more and more to think that a scarf played a part in her strangulation...somewhere down the line. In one of PR interviews, she was asked a ton of questions about scarves in the home...who owned them, were they just lying around the house...etc. I thought that was odd...unless, the investigators believe that a scarf could have played a part in her murder. I also think that John should have scooped JB up and taken her to the ER...and if Patsy protested, he should have shoved her down, and kept on walking out the door, to the car....with his daughter. He shouldn't have helped to cover it up....and I also think that if the truth (what I believe to be the truth) ever comes out, that he STILL should be arrested, for covering up a crime, aiding and abeiting, lying to investigators, withholding evidence...etc.

here's a thread about it on the crime library board:
http://boards.crimelibrary.com/showthread.php?t=280446

 

[JMO8778]

She obviously didn't die right away...or else the garrote wouldn't have been necessary. And also, after a blow that hard to the head, the bleeding would have started right away...from everything that I have read about severe head injuries. And as I have said, she obviously didn't die RIGHT AWAY, after the head blow. I am sure that she was knocked unconscious, though...and probably convulsed...given plenty of time for her nose or ears to have bled. Yes, it is possible that the blood on her pillow was not connected to her death, but...my guess is...it was tested and there is a way to find out how old it is. I don't believe that the interviewer would have brought the stain up, or the other interviewer would have brought up night time nosebleeds, if there wasn't a reason for it. They obviously had some reason to ask those questions. I am sure that if Patsy or John had of seen JB's ears or nose oozing blood, they would have wiped it off...with an alcohol swab or something....thats why the coroner saw no presence of blood. How do you know that there wasn't blood in her INNER ear(s)? The autopsy said that there was no presence of blood in the outer ear canal....there was no mention of the inner ear. There is no doubt in my mind that she bled that night, from either her ears or nose or BOTH.

it seems that info is missing(on purpose) from the autopsy report,IMO.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,

The ransom note is evidence of a change of plan, since she was eventually left in the wine-cellar and not abducted!

I totally agree.That line in the RN would NOT be there,if there wasn't a reason for it..as if beheading JB wasn't enough..why bother to say 'YOU WILL ALSO BE DENIED HER REMAINS FOR PROPER BURIEL'.why bother with that line at all,if there was no intention to take the body out of the house??

You have to decide if you are dealing with an accidental death or a murder, the need for staging may not be required in one of those.

If its not an accidental death then supplying a motive can help to explain subsequent staging.

right..doesn't seem to be an accident to me.

Was JonBenet sexually assaulted prior to her death? The forensic evidence suggests yes, and Coroner Meyer verbally opined that she may have been digitally assaulted too, no doubt based upon the abnormal size of her hymen and its chronic erosion?

seems that way,for sure.

JonBenet was asphyxiated twice, sexually assaulted, suffered a severe skull fracture, and had various abrasions inflicted upon her body, can these injuries be characterised as accidental, imo, no.

I don't think so,either.

Looks to me like JonBenet was intentionally killed, her head injury alone was enough to kill her, so we are dealing with a murder, the initial motive appears sexual in nature, and the subsequent staging was intended to cover this up.

I agree.

JonBenet was neither fully dressed in day-clothes or night-clothes indicating she died wearing the white-gap top, and possibly her black velvet pants, but if she was the victim of a sexual assault then she may have been naked from the waist down?

right..and so..she was redressed on the bottom 1/2 of her body.

imo JonBenet never made it to her bed, she had a pineapple snack, then she was sexually assaulted in another room, e.g. not the kitchen or the basement, since evidence of the snack was forgotten about, and the basement was her final resting place.

sounds likely

Evidence that demonstrated JonBenet was sexually assaulted was removed and she was wiped down, cleaning away blood etc, also her size-6 underwear was removed, why do all this if it was just an accidental death, then there are her asymmetric ponytails, when were these fashioned, and why?

to hide the head wound (the attempt to mortally wound her),in order to draw attn to the ligature staging.

It appears an initial staging was constructed somewhere other than the wine-cellar, possibly intended as an intruder assault, later this was amended to become an abduction scenario, with the addition of a ransom note, when this was not fulfilled the wine-cellar staging was constructed.

So the killer(s) staged thinking may have gone like this, Intruder Assault then Intruder Kidnapping, then Bedtime Abduction.

The Intruder Assault may have been dropped due to its reliance on too much domestic evidence making the occupants prime suspects, the Intruder Kidnapping may have been dropped due to the killer(s) reluctance to dump JonBenet's corpse outdoors, finally as a last resort a Bedtime Abduction was created complete with JonBenet's Barbie-Gown, which would have indicated she had been sleeping?


.

YES,that makes total sense !!! And IF PR is the one who inflicted the initial wounds...skull fracture and manual strangling..then I think the motive wasn't a soiling or bedwetting incident..it had something to do with JR molesting JB,and I don't think she hit JB accidently.
IF those wounds were done by JR,then the motive is self-explanatory.

edited to add,an initial intruder assault staging may be why PR said JB wore the red turtleneck to bed..she was changed into that,(so she wouldn't be wearing the clothes she came home in),but it was later decided to put the white shirt back on her.

 

[Toltec]

I found a reference to nosebleeds from ST book...page 36 hardback

Abrasions were noted below the right earlobe and right jawline, and there was a small amount of blood around the nasal passages.

Everytime I go back to reading Steve's book, I find something new.

 

[UKGuy]

I found a reference to nosebleeds from ST book...page 36 hardback

Abrasions were noted below the right earlobe and right jawline, and there was a small amount of blood around the nasal passages.

Everytime I go back to reading Steve's book, I find something new.

Toltec,

Good find, from memory this was not in the autopsy report?



.

 

[Ames]

I found a reference to nosebleeds from ST book...page 36 hardback

Abrasions were noted below the right earlobe and right jawline, and there was a small amount of blood around the nasal passages.

Everytime I go back to reading Steve's book, I find something new.

WOW...great find! Thanks for posting this...I have said all along, that there was NO way that with that severe of a head blow, that she didn't have bleeding from her ears, nose or both (a blow that like usually causes bleeding from the mouth too.)

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Why would the person who staged the crime scene wipe JonBenet's bottom but not even bother to clean her face at all? It makes me think if the wiping was due to caring, then her face would have been cleaned off as well. So what was the purpose of wiping her?

 

[Ames]

I found a reference to nosebleeds from ST book...page 36 hardback

Abrasions were noted below the right earlobe and right jawline, and there was a small amount of blood around the nasal passages.

Everytime I go back to reading Steve's book, I find something new.

13 PATSY RAMSEY: Pillows and things. Yeah,

14 this is the little pillow (inaudible). Her Christmas

15 doll.

16 TOM HANEY: That is 73, 74, 75, and 76 now.

17 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible).

18 TOM HANEY: That I couldn't tell you right at

19 this moment. Do you remember any staining on that

20 pillow the night you put her to bed?

21 PATSY RAMSEY: No. It was dark in there, you

22 know.

23 TOM HANEY: When you put her to bed did you

24 turn on any lights that night, Christmas night.

25 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think so. Maybe. I

0426

1 can't remember. I remember dressing her, her pajamas

2 pants on her. It was dark. I didn't turn on the

3 bright lights because I didn't want to wake her up.

(snipped to shorten)

11 TOM HANEY: The maximum number going back.

12 PATSY RAMSEY: Maybe the next Friday.

13 TOM HANEY: Or last Wednesday.

14 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

15 TRIP DEMUTH: Did JonBenet ever have nose

16 bleeds at night?

17 PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I remember.

18 Sometimes she might pick her nose, maybe cause it to

19 bleed, but she wouldn't have one of those, you know,

20 dry, you know, to hold her head back kind of thing.

Check this out....

http://www.healthy.net/scr/article.a...rticle&Id=1286


Signs and Symptoms of Head Injuries That Alert The Need For Medical Care include:

• Loss of consciousness, confusion, drowsiness
• Inability to move any part of the body or weakness in an arm or leg
• Dent, bruise, cut or blood on the scalp
• Severe headache
• Stiff neck
• Vomiting
• Blood or fluid that comes from the mouth, nose or ear
• Loss of vision, blurred or double vision, pupils of unequal size
• Convulsions

Sorry, I just felt the need to repost this after reading your reference from Steve Thomas.