Dna

[DeeDee249]

I haven’t caught up yet on all the posts since yesterday’s great webcast (Thanks, Tricia!), but just to make sure we’re all on the same page on the blanching/lividity issue before moving on...












DD, I hope you know how much I value your knowledge. I don’t have the medical background you do, so I can only follow along on the discussions about the reasons that certain things happen (metabolic, chemical, etc. changes). I do know though that if you press on the skin of a living person, when you remove the pressure it will be white for a few seconds because the blood has been suppressed. With the pressure removed and as the blood returns, it will come back to its natural color. Not that I have ever tried this, but if I did the same thing to the skin of a dead person (depending of course on how long after death), when I remove the pressure, the blood will not return (because of all the reasons you stated above).

The reason for clearing that up is because we can disagree on the interpretation of what that means, but we need to agree first on the facts.

Based on all this, if I understand your theory correctly, you believe the blanched area to have been formed by something other than the cord after the upper ligature was in place and after death had occurred. I can’t disagree with that as a possibility based on our understanding of the physiological aspects.

However, I do believe in a little different sequence of events, which I don’t believe you can dispute by the same understanding of those physiological aspects. I believe the blanched area occurred first and caused her death (along with the head blow). Because of the angle of the lower circumference, it tells us the direction of force pulling on the cord (I believe the same cord that was left on her neck). Because of the direction of the force pulling on the cord there, it is unlikely that it was done facing her. IOW, the person or force pulling on the cord had to have been behind her when it happened. The reason for no defensive scratch marks on her neck is because she was unconscious from the head blow. Shortly after she expired, the cord was moved to the upper position where it remained until her body was found about 12 hours later. (Again, note the angle of the furrow in the relation to the blanched circumference.)
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I actually DO believe the ligature made BOTH the red and white marks on her neck. IMO I do not believe there are marks from anything else on her neck.

 

[UKGuy]

:moo: MOO (my opinion only?): Lower.

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otg,
You could be correct. I thought blanching was a postmortem effect. Am I wrong?

Could it be the lower trauma reflects her death, but the upper furrow represents a tidy up and garrote staging, all done in the same timeframe?

If you can prove that, as a result of the the lower trauma, JonBenet was asphyxiated, that would change the perception of the case completely, since the upper furrow would then represent clear evidence of staging.


.

 

[DeeDee249]

otg,
You could be correct. I thought blanching was a postmortem effect. Am I wrong?

Could it be the lower trauma reflects her death, but the upper furrow represents a tidy up and garrote staging, all done in the same timeframe?

If you can prove that, as a result of the the lower trauma, JonBenet was asphyxiated, that would change the perception of the case completely, since the upper furrow would then represent clear evidence of staging.


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Blanching IS postmortem. It is the early stage of livor mortis. But in a living person, if you press against the skin of, say, the lower leg, if there is water retention, when you take your finger away there will be a white mark, but it will fill instantly as the blood rushes back into the tissues. This is also known as blanching, but it is different than that which happens in livor mortis.

 

[Whaleshark]

So I pulled up WebSleuths and JB info with her photos up for the first time on my Asus Pad..... I'm used to looking at it all on my laptop, computer monitor, or cell phone....

So here's the deal - I was very clearly able to see in the middle back of her neck, where the furrow goes deep, a pattern design in a circle, not unlike the one on the side of her face. I don't know if maybe that's where the ligature pushed the cross pendant of her necklace into her neck and left a permanent impression....or if it's the same pattern as in the circular wound on her face.

I was able to zoom in and it's very clear - multiple photos, same thing. I can draw the pattern if I want to. I also viewed the back of neck circular wound with pattern photo next to the face wound with pattern photo and they are very similar.

It also looks like this pattern is repeated in different spots, faintly, overlapping...

It may just be the necklace pendant, but it may be significant if it was the buttons from her vest or something else used in strangling her before the ligature was put on.

I wish somebody would do the same treatment to that spot on the back of her neck as FR Brown did with spot on her face....the close up zoom...

Either way, something was pressed into her face, neck more than once and left impressions of patterns that are very distinct.

...Maybe someone who has another Pad/Tablet, or iPad can try the same thing and see if they see it as well....

 

[qtc]

In Kolar's book, on page 65-66, he gives Dr. Werner Spitz's opinion on the wounds.

1. The first injury sustained by Jonbenet was believed to have been the constriction marks on the sides and front of her throat. He believed that her assailant had grabbed her shirt from the front and twisted the collar in their fist. The cloth from the edge of the collar had created the discolored, striated bruising and the abrasions on the sides of her neck, and the knuckles of the perpetrator had caused the triangular shape bruise located on the front side of her throat.

2. Jonbenet reached up to her neck with her hands to attempt to pull away the collar causing some nail gouges/abrasions with her fingernails on the side of her throat.

If he is correct about the killer grabbing and twisting the front of her shirt, assuming the killer didnt wear gloves, wouldnt they have left lots of skin cells in that area?

 

[Agatha_C]

In Kolar's book, on page 65-66, he gives Dr. Werner Spitz's opinion on the wounds.




If he is correct about the killer grabbing and twisting the front of her shirt, assuming the killer didnt wear gloves, wouldnt they have left lots of skin cells in that area?

I have long thought she was wearing the red turtleneck and it was the first strangulation device. I cant see the white star shirt working in the same fashion if grabbed from the front. Hmmmm, curiouser and curiouser!!!!!!

 

[DeeDee249]

In Kolar's book, on page 65-66, he gives Dr. Werner Spitz's opinion on the wounds.




If he is correct about the killer grabbing and twisting the front of her shirt, assuming the killer didnt wear gloves, wouldnt they have left lots of skin cells in that area?

Dr. Spitz did not actually perform the autopsy, nor did he actually view the body. The Coroner who DID- never noted any scratches on her, and there was no evidence under her nails that she had her own blood, skin or tissue under them. Mayer noted the marks on her neck as petechiae.