Do you think a Stungun was used?

[capps]

Posted by Jayelles:
"I have a long armed lighter. I can burn someone's skin with that. I could also abrade their skin with it if I jammed it into them with force."

Jayelles,

That's true,it would show a burn and maybe abrasions,but I don't think it would show the same kind of marks for experts to agree that they are consistent with stunguns.

 

[tipper]

The emphasis of your quotes is misleading imo:-

Point 1
[/i]

Erythema is a medical term for burn. That is not at odds with stungun marks - which are burns. It is also well known that if a stungun is used with force, then the prongs themselves will cause additional injury in the form of abrasions.

An abrasion occurs when the skin surface is broken.

Point 2 - your emphasis


Point 2 - I think this should be the emphasis
[/i]
Again - perfectly feasible for a stungun to abrade the skin as it is for handcuffs to do so.



Meyer, who peformed Jonbenet's autopsy did not describe anything as a burn.

The point is that marks left by a stun gun have been described as abrasions. Meyer didn't say "burn" nor did these other people. They all said "abrasion."

While erythema can describe burns, its use is not limited to burns. I suppose one can make that argument that all skin irritations are burns but I don’t think most people, including doctors use the word burn so universally.

http://www.ilpi.com/msds/ref/erythema.html
Erythema
Definition

* Erythema is abnormal redness and inflammation of the skin caused by the congestion and dilation (widening) of the capillaries (tiny blood vessels). The effect is usually localized or patchy. In layman's terms, erythema is a skin rash.

Some references include the mucous membranes as well as the skin in their definition.

Additional Information

Rashes have many different causes such as heat, drugs, ultraviolet rays, ionizing radiation, over-exposure to sunlight and/or allergic reactions.

The term "erythema" is often used in conjunction with other words or modifiers to indicate a very specific type of rash. For example, erythema multiforme refers to a skin rash that results from an allergic reaction.

http://www.naspag.org/health_prof/articles/case_quiz.asp

[…]
Nonspecific findings include vulvar erythema, vulvovaginal discharge, excoriations, increased vascular patterns in the vestibule or labial mucosa, and labial agglutination.


www.medical-library.org/journals2a/vaginoses.htm
Vaginitis - New Treatments, October 2, 2005
Vulvar erythema and excoriations may be present due to scratching or contact
irritation. The normal pH level is not usually altered with uncomplicated ...

http://kidshealth.org/parent/infections/skin/erythema_toxicum.html

Erythema Toxicum
Erythema toxicum is a rash that affects full-term infants 1 to 3 days after birth. The erythema rash consists of tiny bumps, about 1 to 2 millimeters wide, ...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2611121&dopt=Abstract

Recombinant human interleukin 1 beta (IL-1 beta), given intraperitoneally to mice as a single injection, significantly suppressed the development of arachidonic acid (AA)-induced ear oedema. This effect was noted 2 h after administration and for at least 5 days afterwards. IL-1 beta was effective in the dose range of 250 ng-20 micrograms/mouse. Injection of IL-1 beta per se resulted in erythema of the ears, and thus, IL-1 beta has the capacity not only to induce and augment but also to suppress inflammatory responses. Indomethacin administered as subcutaneously-implanted pellets did not influence the IL-1 beta induced-ear erythema, but suppressed to some extent the effect of IL-1 beta on the AA-induced ear oedema.

 

[tipper]

In your last example, it is the histologic changes which are not always present - not the burns.

[...].

Yes, I know. That why a biopsy would be done. What I was interested in and thought BlueCrab might also be interested in was the fact that histological changes aren't always present. So the lack of histological changes in a victim aren't necessarily proof that a stun gun wasn't used. Interesting...

 

[sissi]

Are stun gun marks burns? I have a daughter who gets erythema multiforme as a reaction to "who knows what", the rash is not burn like. Areas are red, irregularly shaped, slightly raised, but not burns. It was described to me by the pediatrician as a slight ,underneath the skin hemorrhage from dilated capillaries. I take the word erythema to mean "hivelike". I do believe to label two marks as erythematous would mean nothing more than suggest the skin was disturbed by "something" enough to raise it and redden it. This would be suggestive of a stun gun given the two little marks together. Unless of course they had centers, which could be bites of an arthropod, again our "wide awake" character tortured his "barbie" with bugs. Too way out??

 

[tipper]

http://www.ncchc.org/pubs/CC/tasers.html
[…]
Similarly, the duration of a Taser pulse is important. Most of the tissue damage seen in standard electrical injuries is not due to the electrical current directly. Tissue chronaxie, or the heat generated secondarily by the electrical resistance of the human body to the current, is what generally causes an “electrical” burn. Heat generation becomes significant with relatively long durations in pulse. Tasers are designed with short pulse waveforms to reduce this risk.
[…]

 

[UKGuy]

Looks like we can all have our own facts here, as long as we interpret the forensic evidence to back up our position!

So who was it that publically announced that a stun gun may have been used, maybe it was, I certainly dont know either way?

Was it Lou Smit ?


.

 

[BlueCrab]

http://www.ncchc.org/pubs/CC/tasers.html
[?]
Similarly, the duration of a Taser pulse is important. Most of the tissue damage seen in standard electrical injuries is not due to the electrical current directly. Tissue chronaxie, or the heat generated secondarily by the electrical resistance of the human body to the current, is what generally causes an ?electrical? burn. Heat generation becomes significant with relatively long durations in pulse. Tasers are designed with short pulse waveforms to reduce this risk.
[?]

tipper,

This was a good article but as you surely noticed, it related only to the Air Taser (two darts shot into the victim from about 5 to 15 feet away), which LE agencies use. But tasers used by civilians for self defense are not dart-loaded and leave entirely different-looking "signatures" (marks on the skin). I don't know of any jurisdiction that allows civilians to buy Air Tasers.

The typical stun gun used by civilians is hand-held and must be physically jammed against the body of the victim (or assailant). If JonBenet was stungunned, the gun used to shock her was hand-held, and judging by the size and spacing between the electrodes it was a Taser brand stun gun (an older model not equipped with darts).

Therefore, LE-type articles about stun guns take a different approach in regard to describing marks left on the skin; their safe use; how long the trigger is held before serious burn marks appear on the skin; etc.

BlueCrab

 

[txsvicki]

I'm convinced that a stun gun was used to incapacitate and then to torture. If the head injury was at the very last, something had to keep JonBenet from screaming and struggling during the attack. There are no signs of a struggle on the body, marks on the wrist, no broken fingernails or knee scrapes from trying to get away. JonBenet must have been knocked out with something even if the marks are from being held down and levi buttons pressing or from a stun gun.

 

[tipper]

tipper,

This was a good article but as you surely noticed, it related only to the Air Taser (two darts shot into the victim from about 5 to 15 feet away), which LE agencies use. But tasers used by civilians for self defense are not dart-loaded and leave entirely different-looking "signatures" (marks on the skin). I don't know of any jurisdiction that allows civilians to buy Air Tasers.

The typical stun gun used by civilians is hand-held and must be physically jammed against the body of the victim (or assailant). If JonBenet was stungunned, the gun used to shock her was hand-held, and judging by the size and spacing between the electrodes it was a Taser brand stun gun (an older model not equipped with darts).

Therefore, LE-type articles about stun guns take a different approach in regard to describing marks left on the skin; their safe use; how long the trigger is held before serious burn marks appear on the skin; etc.

BlueCrab

Sorry, I'd meant to note that that the article was on dart tasers.

Police Tasers are equipped for both dart and direct contact. "stun" mode vs "dart" mode. I think the physiology of the burns is the same for both modes.

http://www.ci.westminster.co.us/res/ps/pd/topics_taser.htm
In addition to firing darts (probes), the Taser can be used as a stun gun. This is where the Taser is driven into a person and used in stun mode. This can be done with an expended cartridge in place so an officer is not defenseless once the cartridge has been fired.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR511682004?open&of=ENG-2M4
Background Information
Taser guns are dart-firing electro-shock stun weapons designed to cause instant incapacitation by delivering a 50,000 volt shock. Tasers fire two barbed darts up to a distance of 21 feet (6.4 metres), which remain attached to the gun by wires. The fish-hook like darts are designed to penetrate up to two inches of the target’s clothing or skin and deliver a high-voltage, low amperage, electro-shock along insulated copper wires. They can also be used without the darts, close-up, as stun guns.

http://www.lawinabox.net/lbnewswire12b.html
A police officer twice used her taser on him as a stun-gun when he failed to respond to attempts to roll him over and became "physically resistant". ....Altogether, Leyba was electro-shocked in stun or dart mode at least five times, after which he "stopped all physical resistance" and was handcuffed behind his back.

 

[Nehemiah]

was the person who said they weren't stun gun marks and if you look very closely through magnification, you can see imprints of what looks to be a boat anchor imprinted within the marks? It was one of the doctors or scientists who did an examination for a TV special or something. I keep thinking of an older guy with an accent.

Interesting that either her vest, or JB's jumper that Patsy was 'fussing' with in the laundry area had snaps. I can't remember which one, now. I have wondered if Patsy was washing around on the jumper because it contained a spot of something that was a clue to what happened on Christmas Night.

If Spitz were correct, and the jumper had snaps, and P was 'fussing' with it before she went downstairs and found the note...then....lots of IFs.

 

[UKGuy]

Interesting that either her vest, or JB's jumper that Patsy was 'fussing' with in the laundry area had snaps. I can't remember which one, now. I have wondered if Patsy was washing around on the jumper because it contained a spot of something that was a clue to what happened on Christmas Night.

If Spitz were correct, and the jumper had snaps, and P was 'fussing' with it before she went downstairs and found the note...then....lots of IFs.

Nehemiah,

Yes something along these lines is quite credible, possible re-dressing would explain why they were removed from the crime-scene.

All this stun-gun speculation is part of Lou Smit's intruder theory and like the Garrote around JonBenet's neck, which he envisioned as an Erotic Asphyxiation Device, quite simply imaginative!

.

 

[Cranberry]

Interesting that either her vest, or JB's jumper that Patsy was 'fussing' with in the laundry area had snaps. I can't remember which one, now. I have wondered if Patsy was washing around on the jumper because it contained a spot of something that was a clue to what happened on Christmas Night.

If Spitz were correct, and the jumper had snaps, and P was 'fussing' with it before she went downstairs and found the note...then....lots of IFs.

I thought it was odd that the black vest JBR wore that night was found on the ironing board (identified by PR in a photo) and there was no mention of it being taken off at bedtime in the interviews. I'll have to check to see if snaps are mentioned in that description of the vest. Also could the marks on her back be consistant with an electric cord plug? (if she were laying on top of it?)

 

[BlueCrab]

Also could the marks on her back be consistant with an electric cord plug? (if she were laying on top of it?)

Cranberry,

No, the marks on JonBenet could not have been from an electric cord plug. The prongs on an electric cord are just 1/2 inch apart. The marks on JonBenet were 1 3/8 inches apart (the same as the prongs on a Taser brand stun gun).

However, if you're looking for alternate sources of the marks, how about this one? The distance between the metal clasps on Hi-Tec hiking boots, around which the shoestrings are looped at the top of the boot, are 1 3/8 inches apart.

BlueCrab

 

[Cranberry]

Cranberry,

No, the marks on JonBenet could not have been from an electric cord plug. The prongs on an electric cord are just 1/2 inch apart. The marks on JonBenet were 1 3/8 inches apart (the same as the prongs on a Taser brand stun gun).

However, if you're looking for alternate sources of the marks, how about this one? The distance between the metal clasps on Hi-Tec hiking boots, around which the shoestrings are looped at the top of the boot, are 1 3/8 inches apart.

BlueCrab

Thank you BlueCrab - I'm sorry I have a correction to make on the vest - JR thought it might be a vest on the ironing board (98 interview/line 0776) and PR (line 254) identified a velvet dress with silver snaps worn to the Whites on the 25th (transcribed dress instead of vest maybe?) in JBR's room in the police photos.

 

[aussiesheila]

I am convinced that a stun gun had been used on JonBenet (I don't like the use of "100%" in the poll question but, based on the evidence, that designation comes closest to what I think).

There were three areas on JonBenet's body that were likely injuries from stun gun hits. These were on the right side of the face; on the lower-left back; and on the lower left leg near the ankle. The marks on the back were the clearest to diagnose.

The size and shape and distance apart of the twin rectangular marks, especially on JonBenet's back, clearly matched the metaL prongs of a Taser brand stun gun.

I'm not a member of the RST but I'm convinced that JonBenet had been tased. Moreover, I'm convinced that a Ramsey family member was involved in the tasing and the stun gun disappeared with the rest of the missing physical evidence from the crime scene (the tape, the cord, etc.).

Here's how the coroner described the little rectangular marks in his autopsy report:

"Located on the right side of the chin is a three-sixteenths by one-eighth of an inch area of superficial abrasion."

"On the left lateral aspect of the lower back, approximately sixteen and one-quarter inches and seventeen and one-half inches below the level of the top of the head are two dried rust colored to slightly purple abrasions. The more superior of the two measures one-eighth by one-sixteenth of an inch and the more inferior measures three-sixteenths by one-eighth of an inch."

"On the posterior aspect of the lower left leg, almost in the midline, approiximately 4 inches above the level of the heel are two small scratch-like abrasions which are dried and rust colored. They measure one-sixteenth by less than one-sixteenth of an inch and one-eighth by less than one-sixteenth of an inch respectively".

Meyer, after reviewing additional evidence, later agreed that the marks are consistent with stun gun injuries.

BlueCrab

Yes I am convinced that a stungun was used too, Bluecrab, thanks to all the information you have posted and I was able to read.

I think though, that the mark on her chin was from some other injury, since there is only one mark and it is larger than all the others.

If you think about it, the face would not be a good place to apply a stungun shock anyway, because the victim could see the stungun coming towards their face and anticipate something nasty about to happen. Even if tied up the victim still has the ability to move the head and make the stunning difficult. Besides, sexual abusers try not to leave obvious marks on their victims and marks on the face are always very noticeable, abusers prefer to leave their marks where they would normally be covered by clothes.

PS Bluecrab, how heavy are stunguns?

 

[aussiesheila]

Well JonBenet has abrasions on her body and facial area, there is a ligature around her neck indicating she was asphyxiated, also she suffered vaginal trauma, most likely via the paintbrush handle, or digitally.

So I can match this forensic evidence to the possibility of the abrasions being the result of a stun-gun, the ligature to EA activities, and the vaginal trauma reflecting a sexually motivated assault.

Currently I know of no stun-gun being found in the Ramsey household, or them ever purchasing one, or even, just as importantly, any of their associates owning one, say for self-defence.

I am not aware of any evidence of any prior EA activity with JonBenet. I'm certain her doctor or the school nurse would have picked up on any unusual neck weals or abrasions appearing, and from her published pictures, I have not noticed any marks on her neck etc.

The vaginal trauma she suffered prior to or as she was becoming deceased, may not be sexually motivated. Its purpose may be either to obsfucate prior sexual abuse or fabricate the impression she was the victim of a sadistic pedophile.

So whilst I can interpret the forensic evidence as being consistent with the use of a stun-gun. The same forensic evidence is open to many other interpretations and explanations.

So assuming I've read all the facts, and reviewed the available forensic evidence, I find it does not corroborate or substantiate that a stun-gun was used.



.

UKGuy, to believe a stungun was used you do not have to believe the Ramseys would have owned it. IMO it was brought by an intruder. IMO there are two unusual sets of marks (but not three) that are consistent with a stungun having been used and are difficult to explain as having been caused by anything else.

 

[aussiesheila]

UKGuy,

How many credible interpretations and explanations are there, other than a stun gun, for the presence of matching twin rectangular injuries found in three different locations on JonBenet that are the exact same size, shape and distance apart as the twin metal probes on a Taser brand stun gun?

IMO there are none. A stun gun was likely used on JonBenet.

BlueCrab

I'm pulling you up here Bluecrab, as you requested. Are you sure they were RECTANGULAR? Meyer didn't say this but apologies if a stungun expert who viewed the photos said they were.

 

[aussiesheila]

(Robert Stratbucker). He has done the most extensive research on stunguns and his work included photographs of the stungun marks immediately after the injury, ten minutes later, one hour later and 24 hours later in the case of one subject for whom the marks took longer to disappear. This man was of a different race to other subjects and this was a matter of interest to Stratbucker. For most of the guinea pigs in Stratbucker's research, the marks completely disappeared within one hour.

Jayelles, maybe stungun marks do disappear within an hour of having been made if the victim remains alive. But if JonBenet had died within seconds or even minutes of being stungunned, as she very well might have been, then this could be the reason the marks did not fade in her case.

 

[sandraladeda]

BlueCrab, I go back and forth on the idea of whether a stun gun might have been used. Often I think it is too far fetched.

A question for you, if matching twin rectangular injuries were found in three different locations on JonBenet that are the exact same size, shape and distance apart as the twin metal probes on a Taser brand stun gun, why do you think more was not made of these injuries at the time of her autopsy?

It would seem to me that this would be a great direction for the investigation to go in - how many people actually own stun guns? I know it sounds simplistic to "cross-reference" every person in Colorado who owns a stun gun with the entire roster of Ramsey associates, but if the stun gun evidence was focussed on immediately after the death, instead of this sort of "maybe, maybe not a stun gun" lack of certainty on the part of investigators, perhaps someone would have known someone who owned a stun gun and brought this information forward. At the least, the similarity of these marks to stun gun injuries should have been a strong enough rationale for exhuming the body, no?

Finally, can someone refresh my memory about JR allegedly having a manual or a video regarding stun guns?

 

[aussiesheila]

Jayelles,


In regard to the slight misalignment of the marks on JonBenet, please remember that the skin on the test pig was thick and rigid; while the skin on JonBenet was thin and pliable. Jam a stun gun into the respective skins and the resulting "signatures" will look slightly different in regard to alignment. Using a model stun gun with metal electrodes the same size as a Taser, in an experiment several years ago I proved how easy it is to cause misalignment of stun gun marks on my own arm. I shared the results of the experiment here on WS.

IMO the evidence of a stun gun having been used on JonBenet is overwhelming.

BlueCrab

I agree with all of the above, and also Jayelles, not only is the skin on the back of the leg of a different texture to that on the back, the underlying shape of the body is different even in the same individual. I think these two facts could account for any minor differences in the shapes and distances apart of the two sets of marks. (I disregard the idea that the mark on her face was from a stungun)