Dog gone.

TH didn't start out to kill his step son. If he had, he had guns; he would have used one of those and then "lost" it. IMO, he flew into a rage at Stevie, either for disobeying him when he called him home from the Clark's backyard where he saw the three boys playing and called to them or for soiling his pants which he found at home when he returned after playing guitars with David Jacoby. It could have happened this way: TH gets home, finds the soiled jeans and goes to find Stevie. When he leaves his house, he sees the boys playing in the Clark's backyard. He calls to them, but they run the other way, either out of defiance or fear or maybe because Stevie was planning to run away from home and had made plans to that end with his two friends at school that day. TH follows and finds the boys in the manhole, their secret hideout. From there, IMO, he meant to discipline Stevie, and it got out of hand. When he realized he had killed Stevie, he killed the other two boys because they were witnesses. Then, he goes back to Jacoby, saying he couldn't find the boys, and enlists his aid in searching. According to Jacoby's deposition in the Pasdar case, all of the searching he did with TH prior to Pam arriving home from work was done from the car. TH left Amanda with the Jacoby's when he searched alone or with David. There was ample time for him to check out the boys' condition during the time period while Pam was still at work and before the other parents began searching. Once the heat died down in the woods, he went to the manhole with Stevie's jeans because Pam had told the police that Stevie was wearing jeans when he disappeared, but TH had seen him in shorts and felt the need to "fix" this discrepancy. When he was unable to get the jeans on the dead body, he simply removed the clothes from all victims so as not to call attention to Stevie. He then hog tied the bodies like he had learned while working in a slaughter house and transported them to the discovery site. During the early searching, it seems that TH deliberately chose to search in the area where the manhole was, the BB woods, being sure that no one else went there. He moved the bodies to the discovery site in the RHH woods in the wee hours of May 6th, explaining his absence by saying that he had been searching for the boys all night. That's one possible scenario. There are probably others that differ slightly, but until someone can propose a scenario that explains all the known evidence better than this one, this is what I believe happened. As to the WMPD having additional evidence, the discovery laws require that they reveal all evidence to the defense. Therefore, if the police department has something else, I'm very sure that Riordan and the other defense attorneys are prepared to refute it. There is just no way that three teenaged boys committed this crime without leaving any evidence, and any physical evidence the police had would have been brought out at the original trial. Instead, the prosecution relied on the inaccurate statement of a mentally-challenged youth who has since recanted and has professed his innocence since February of 1994, an occult "expert" will a diploma-mill degree, a jailhouse snitch whose drug counselor told the defense that he (the counselor) told the snitch the story the snitch told the police, statements made by some silly girls about a conversation that they supposedly overheard but of which they were not actually a part, fibers that could have come from any of hundreds of garments at Wal-mart and a knife, found a month later, which experts now say had nothing to do with the murder and which could not be linked physically to the crime at the time.
 
Did TH know the boys played at Robin Hood Hills?
 
And the BB woods adjacent to RHH woods. The boys were really "into" the Teenaged Mutant Ninja Turtles, and the manholes in the BB woods and behind the Mayfair Apartments were similar to the sewers in which the TMNT's lived in Manhattan. IIRC, all of the parents and step parents were aware of the boys' fascination with TMNT, so it stands to reason that they would at least suspect that the boys would be attracted to the manholes. I know that I've seen statements that both Mark Byers and Terry Hobbs knew of the boys' playing in the manholes; I just can't find the documentation at the present time.
 
Where did they find TH's Foot Print? It was a muddy one too right?
 
IIRC, it was in the mud by the discovery ditch that they found a footprint that was the same size as TH. I'm not sure. I'll see if I can find a definitive answer for you.
 
It is not a baseless rumor. Below please find a link to Jason Baldwin's Writ of Error Coram Nobis. If you will begin reading at the bottom of page 9, you will find the information about Michael Carson, and this is the Michael Carson that testified against Jason.

http://www.wm3blackboard.com/forum/index.php?topic=3744.0

Where in that Writ does it state or support what you said in message 35 of this thread?

Compassionate Reader: Carson went to CA and tried to become a police informant there. However, the arrangement didn't last very long because, IIRC, too much of his "information" was later proven to be false.
 
The information on Carson starts at the bottom of page nine. It discusses his unreliability and his drug informant status in CA as well as his drug counselor's statement to the defense that the information Carson gave the police possibly came from the counselor.
 
Where did they find TH's Foot Print? It was a muddy one too right?

They have an imprint from a tennis shoe; not TH's footprint per se. It matches TH's size. And, well, there's more coming at the upcoming hearings.

And the thing is .... Damien wore Army boots. They have very obvious, easy to identify marks. And there ain't none... I mean, if we want to discuss evidence instead of hoodoo voodoo "Damien was craaazzyy" nonsense.
 
That's a great point about the LACK of footprints in that area. With all that supposedly went on in Jesse's false confession - if the events happened they way he says they did (which I don't believe they did because...) there would be footprints from not only three assailants but three boys and areas where they scuffled etc. in that area and along the ditch bank.

One of the three accused would have left a hair - Damien's was long and Jason's long in the back. The lack of physical evidence connecting them with the crime scene is very telling. Then lo and behold, a footprint, a tennis shoe, same size as TH. At the time the WMPD probably did not collect any clothing from parents/step-parents.

The fact that Damien may have killed a dog is pretty weak evidence.
 
Ok, if the WM3 did not kill Stevie, Chris, & Michael and JMB did not do it and Terry Hobbs and his friend did not do it then who did?

Hi, luvmua.

If you believe Dr. Werner Spitz, whom supporters call the "godfather of forensic pathology", it was...dogs.

Dogs grabbed the three boys and bashed their heads against rocks.

He would not classify these deaths as homicides. In other words, a human being didn't murder these children. Canines out of control did.

Make sense to you?
 
They have an imprint from a tennis shoe; not TH's footprint per se. It matches TH's size. And, well, there's more coming at the upcoming hearings.

And the thing is .... Damien wore Army boots. They have very obvious, easy to identify marks. And there ain't none... I mean, if we want to discuss evidence instead of hoodoo voodoo "Damien was craaazzyy" nonsense.

Sorry, but nonsense is calling what was wrong with Damien, nonsense.


The proof that Damien was mentally unstable is outlined thoroughly in the Callahan 500. There is no excuse for labeling that proof as nonsense.
 
Hi, luvmua.

If you believe Dr. Werner Spitz, whom supporters call the "godfather of forensic pathology", it was...dogs.

Dogs grabbed the three boys and bashed their heads against rocks.

He would not classify these deaths as homicides. In other words, a human being didn't murder these children. Canines out of control did.

Make sense to you?

Where are you getting this information? Dr. Spitz said that drowning was the cause of death. He believes many of the visible injuries were a result of animal predation. That's very different than saying the kids were killed by dogs.
 
Hi, luvmua.

If you believe Dr. Werner Spitz, whom supporters call the "godfather of forensic pathology", it was...dogs.

Dogs grabbed the three boys and bashed their heads against rocks.

He would not classify these deaths as homicides. In other words, a human being didn't murder these children. Canines out of control did.

Make sense to you?

Spitz was referring to post mortem animal predetation.
>From the stand Dr. Spitz told the court that no evidence he could see from the photos supported those claims.

Basically he said nearly all the external marks on the boys were caused by "animal predetation" such as bites from dogs, or water animals.

In his opinion, Dr. Spitz said, "all three died of drowning". Spitz said there was no evidence that a knife was used on the boys.<<
http://www.kait8.com/Global/story.asp?S=10880730

>> As part of their re-examination of evidence in the appeal of this case, the defense team of Echols and Baldwin have brought together a formidable collection of medical forensic experts with decades of experience, authors of the standard textbooks in the field of forensic pathology. This group included forensic pathologist Drs. Werner Spitz, Michael Baden, Vincent Di Maio, Richard Souviron, Terry Haddix and Robert Wood. "The consensus reached by all of those experts was again, that most of the injuries to the skin of the victims, including the severe genital injury to Christopher Byers, were not caused by the use of a knife but by animal predation that occurred after death." [November 1, 2007 Legal Defense Team Press Conference.] Dr. Spitz was more emphatic. "None of the injuries were caused during life, and none were caused by a serrated knife, or any knife for that matter. These are not sharp injuries that have characteristics, and those characteristics are not identifiable or synonymous with a knife or any other sharp force type injury. . . I couldn't understand what this issue was all about because it was so obvious that these are animal product." [Dr. Werner Spitz, ibid] <<
http://www.jivepuppi.com/recent_additions.html
 
Spitz was referring to post mortem animal predetation.
>From the stand Dr. Spitz told the court that no evidence he could see from the photos supported those claims.

Basically he said nearly all the external marks on the boys were caused by "animal predetation" such as bites from dogs, or water animals.

In his opinion, Dr. Spitz said, "all three died of drowning". Spitz said there was no evidence that a knife was used on the boys.<<
http://www.kait8.com/Global/story.asp?S=10880730

>> As part of their re-examination of evidence in the appeal of this case, the defense team of Echols and Baldwin have brought together a formidable collection of medical forensic experts with decades of experience, authors of the standard textbooks in the field of forensic pathology. This group included forensic pathologist Drs. Werner Spitz, Michael Baden, Vincent Di Maio, Richard Souviron, Terry Haddix and Robert Wood. "The consensus reached by all of those experts was again, that most of the injuries to the skin of the victims, including the severe genital injury to Christopher Byers, were not caused by the use of a knife but by animal predation that occurred after death." [November 1, 2007 Legal Defense Team Press Conference.] Dr. Spitz was more emphatic. "None of the injuries were caused during life, and none were caused by a serrated knife, or any knife for that matter. These are not sharp injuries that have characteristics, and those characteristics are not identifiable or synonymous with a knife or any other sharp force type injury. . . I couldn't understand what this issue was all about because it was so obvious that these are animal product." [Dr. Werner Spitz, ibid] <<
http://www.jivepuppi.com/recent_additions.html

Is there a copy of Spitz's actual testimony anywhere? I would sure like to see it because I have seen other reports that Spitz first testified the animal predation could have occurred before or after death, and then later stated "after death." I would like to verify Spitz's whole testimony with the actual transcript.
 
The jivepuppi link is the most thorough account of his statement. If you scroll down to the argument section and look for it, you will find the information on Dr. Spitz's video conference with the defense attorneys. They mention a written statement (Exhibit FF), but I can't find it. Sorry, this is the best I can do for you.

http://www.jivepuppi.com/court_filing_10_07.html
 
The jivepuppi link is the most thorough account of his statement. If you scroll down to the argument section and look for it, you will find the information on Dr. Spitz's video conference with the defense attorneys. They mention a written statement (Exhibit FF), but I can't find it. Sorry, this is the best I can do for you.

http://www.jivepuppi.com/court_filing_10_07.html

I also googled for Werner Spitz + WM3, and came up with another WM3 supporter account of Dr. Spitz's statements, from a person who took notes, and it was that person who recounted that Spitz said the bodies had been most likely shaken by a large animal, and likely a dog. This was when he was describing how puncture wounds to the scalp of the victims might have been obtained.
 
I also googled for Werner Spitz + WM3, and came up with another WM3 supporter account of Dr. Spitz's statements, from a person who took notes, and it was that person who recounted that Spitz said the bodies had been most likely shaken by a large animal, and likely a dog. This was when he was describing how puncture wounds to the scalp of the victims might have been obtained.

Right. That statement was explaining the wounds, not the cause of death.
 
Well if he's saying a dog or coyote shook the boys by the head while they were in the water, he's full of it IMO.
 
Where are you getting this information? Dr. Spitz said that drowning was the cause of death. He believes many of the visible injuries were a result of animal predation. That's very different than saying the kids were killed by dogs.

Cause of death

Spitz: All three died of drowning; none of the injuries contributed to death.
Baden: Multiple injuries and drowning.
Souviron: No comment. He’s a dentist, not a pathologist.

Death Certificate

Spitz: Undetermined, but definitely not homicide.
Baden: Homicide.
Souviron: No comment. He can’t sign death certificates.

Skull Fractures

Spitz: Caused by a dog bashing the victims against hard things. Postmortem.
Baden: Caused by a human. Antemortem.
Souviron: Blunt force trauma inflicted by something. Probably teeth.

Puncture wounds

Spitz: Caused by the incisors of a large, non-homicidal animal (dog).
Baden: Caused by turtles, not dogs.
Souviron: Animal claws.

Injuries to Stevie’s face

Spitz: Rough tongue of an animal licking the face.
Baden: Face rubbing against a tree or rock.
Souviron: Tongue of a small dog, raccoon, turtle, crawfish, or opossum.

Injuries to lips and/or ears

Spitz: Minnows or dogs; postmortem.
Baden: Turtles; postmortem.
Souviron: Feet or claws of an animal ( Stevie’s bottom lip antemortem; top lip postmortem).

Additional points, based on Cruecial’s notes:

Baden said Peretti’s claims of satanism in relation to the mode of death were wrong. Fact: Peretti was never asked, nor did he ever mention a word about satanism in his trial testimony.

Souviron said knife wounds almost always show bone deflection & there was no bone deflection in this case. Fact: He’s full of ****. A knife wound can cause injury and death without ever touching a bone. And some killers like to inflict shallow cuts and gouges. It's called torture. They get off on it.

Is there a judge in this country who would give these three clowns a second thought?
 

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