Doi Proceeds - What Is The Truth?

[Britt]

I doubt that at the time Walsh said "We're offering this reward but we don't have the money." The book was written may years later.

The point is: did he actually take money from donators and buyers of his book, representing that those proceeds were going to the reward/foundation?

To offer a nonexistent (or not yet existent) reward isn't at all the same thing as accepting money from people who thought they were giving to a charity which turns out to be nonexistent.

 

[Tricia]

The point is: did he actually take money from donators and buyers of his book, representing that those proceeds were going to the reward/foundation?

To offer a nonexistent (or not yet existent) reward isn't at all the same thing as accepting money from people who thought they were giving to a charity which turns out to be nonexistent.

That's the point Britt. You hit it right on my friend.

If John Ramsey had never said a word about the foundation in DOI then no one would have a right to say anything to him.

It's totally the family's business if they have a private foundation. No one should expect the Ramseys to offer up private information about a family foundation.

BUT...when John Ramsey made claims in DOI, claims that are still made on the back his paperback, that is a problem.

This goes directly to Ramsey's follow through and intentions. Qualities you need to hold a public office.

 

[tipper]

I would certainly be interested in the details of the Foundation and the details of its termination. There are many ways to close a non-profit foundation. All of them require meeting a variety of IRS regulations. Among other things the JBR Foundation could have simply been transferred to another foundation which would then inherit all the requirements the JBR Foundation was set up with. I would also be interested in knowing what account the check to the camp was written on. Did anybody (aside from the Ramseys) take a tax deduction for a donation to the Foundation? Was it denied by the IRS? The book purchase doesn’t count since that’s not deductible. These are some of the bits and pieces I’m curious about. So far, I’ve seen too few facts to draw any conclusions.

As far as the claim on the back of the book goes – I’d also like to hear what the Ramseys say about it. The book’s last printing was in January ’01. The last tax return for the foundation was filed on August ’01. The fact that "as of the date of [your] press release" the back of the book (printed in ’01) still says "Author’s proceeds from the sale…" doesn’t really mean anything. I don’t expect the Ramseys to run around with jars of white-out changing the cover. You seem to imply they should do something to fix this book cover. What do you suggest as a practical solution?

Had I been in the Ramsey’s position I probably would have had someone keep up a tip website for me. However, having seen what people are capable of saying on these forums, I would not do the upkeep myself. I think a daily bath in the some of the things I’ve read would not be a healthy thing. But again, I would be curious to know their reasons for not continuing with one even though they had changed lawyers.

I don’t think the Ramseys killed their daughter. I do think they are fairly shallow, not very sophisticated or highly intelligent, and certainly not up to creating a huge coverup and fooling those who have had years of experience in dealing with both the guilty and the innocent.

 

[Tricia]

I would certainly be interested in the details of the Foundation and the details of its termination. There are many ways to close a non-profit foundation. All of them require meeting a variety of IRS regulations. Among other things the JBR Foundation could have simply been transferred to another foundation which would then inherit all the requirements the JBR Foundation was set up with. I would also be interested in knowing what account the check to the camp was written on. Did anybody (aside from the Ramseys) take a tax deduction for a donation to the Foundation? Was it denied by the IRS? The book purchase doesn’t count since that’s not deductible. These are some of the bits and pieces I’m curious about. So far, I’ve seen too few facts to draw any conclusions.

As far as the claim on the back of the book goes – I’d also like to hear what the Ramseys say about it. The book’s last printing was in January ’01. The last tax return for the foundation was filed on August ’01. The fact that "as of the date of [your] press release" the back of the book (printed in ’01) still says "Author’s proceeds from the sale…" doesn’t really mean anything. I don’t expect the Ramseys to run around with jars of white-out changing the cover. You seem to imply they should do something to fix this book cover. What do you suggest as a practical solution?

Had I been in the Ramsey’s position I probably would have had someone keep up a tip website for me. However, having seen what people are capable of saying on these forums, I would not do the upkeep myself. I think a daily bath in the some of the things I’ve read would not be a healthy thing. But again, I would be curious to know their reasons for not continuing with one even though they had changed lawyers.

I don’t think the Ramseys killed their daughter. I do think they are fairly shallow, not very sophisticated or highly intelligent, and certainly not up to creating a huge coverup and fooling those who have had years of experience in dealing with both the guilty and the innocent.

No tipper I don't expect them to run around with white out. I do expect them to be honest which I don't believe they are.

If they had a website up they could have at least let people know, who are buying the book today, that any money made from the book is now going into a private foundation not a non-profit.

The problem is there is never an attempt by the Ramseys to try and do the right thing .To try and keep their word.

Look what Patsy said on Larry King Live. She said the Foundation donated a thousand dollars to this camp. Low and behold it wasn't until a reporter called that the check actually showed up. You do have to wonder if the check would have ever been written had the reporter not asked about it. But on LKL Patsy made it very clear that the Foundation had already donated the money. That just wasn't true. In all fairness the head of the camp said Patsy had said she would donate one thousands a few weeks before the Larry King Show.

The way I read the article is the check received from the Ramseys was written on a "foundation" check.

The Non-Profit JonBenet Ramsey Foundation is gone. The promises John made about the goals of the foundation never even got off the ground. Now the Foundation is a "family thing." We don't know what the foundation does. If it does anything. Because it was offically closed, according to the IRS, in 2000. We can't see the books.

I want to make it clear I don't care what the Ramseys do with their money. It's none of my business. I bring the foundation up because to me it reflects the sincerity of John Ramsey and his ability to actually do what he says he will do.

 

[tipper]

Could you please explain the difference between a private foundation and a non-profit foundation?

 

[Tricia]

Could you please explain the difference between a private foundation and a non-profit foundation?

The way it was explained to me by the IRS is a Non-Profit organization basically has to show that it's non-profit. It has to show the books more or less. You have to set up your organization as something that will not be a "for profit" business. You can accept donations and people who give you money can take a tax deduction. BUT you have to open your books. To what extent I don't know.

A 501 (c) can accept things like stock or real estate too. The non-profits that I have worked with have careful guidelines they must follow.

A private means just that. It's private. There is no non-profit status. However you can still have a "foundation" that isn't non-profit. That is apparently what the Ramseys did until 2000. Now what the IRS said was the JBR Foundation was closed. Period. Gone. Private or not. I would take that to mean that it really is now just a family thing and there is no need to file with the IRS. They can donate to anyone they want in JonBenet's name just with a checking account that says, JonBenet Ramsey Foundation. However I am not sure. I am going by what the research showed and what was said by the IRS.

Here is an example of something closed. Remember the "Friends of JonBenet?" Well they closed. Gone. There is no organization anymore in the state of Georgia called the Friends of JonBenet. It was closed down in April of this year.

Now that doesn't mean it won't pop up somewhere else. It just means it's no longer in the state of Georgia.


The non-profit JBR Foundation lasted a whole year. Then the Foundation slowly died without accomplishing anything the Ramseys said it would. But you can still read about it in their book that is still being sold.

No website for tips. No website for information. No website in memory of their daughter. But damn the Ramseys sure do have a good lookin' website for John don't they?

 

[tipper]

That's what I thought you were thinking. And it may be what John Ramsey is thinking too when he says "private." However, to be accurate, the IRS also defines a private foundation as follows:

Private Foundations
Every organization that qualifies for tax exemption as an organization described in section 501(c)(3) is a private foundation unless it falls into one of the categories specifically excluded from the definition of that term (referred to in section 509(a)). In addition, certain nonexempt charitable trusts are also treated as private foundations. Organizations that fall into the excluded categories are generally those that either have broad public support or actively function in a supporting relationship to such organizations.

So the question becomes: what kind of foundation is he refering to? A simple separate checking account? A tax exempt foundation? A nonexempt foundation? A private non-operating foundation? A private operating foundation? As a candidate for office I think it is a legitimate question for him to answer. But I don't think any conclusions can be drawn with the information available so far.

 

[tezi]

No website for tips. No website for information. No website in memory of their daughter. But damn the Ramseys sure do have a good lookin' website for John don't they?

Yes, his run for office in Michigan is apparently more important than finding the killer of his daughter. Seems to me like his priorities(sp) are seriously out of order. :furious: JMO, however, not that it counts for much....

 

[AutumnBorn]

At the first press conference of the Ramsey's, there was a reward poster shown to the media. The poster indicated that Crimestoppers was working with the family to set up the reward.

I contacted Crimestoppers and was informed, in writing, that Crimestoppers had no idea about the reward but that the organization did speak with the Ramsey's afterward about helping them. However, when the Ramsey's were told that the reward money would have to be put into a special Crimestoppers account, that the $ actually had to be available, they chose not to work with the organization.

This was way back before the Ramsey's "lost" all their money. They obviously never had any intention of paying a reward. Or knew they'd never have to do so.

 

[Show Me]

At the first press conference of the Ramsey's, there was a reward poster shown to the media. The poster indicated that Crimestoppers was working with the family to set up the reward.

I contacted Crimestoppers and was informed, in writing, that Crimestoppers had no idea about the reward but that the organization did speak with the Ramsey's afterward about helping them. However, when the Ramsey's were told that the reward money would have to be put into a special Crimestoppers account, that the $ actually had to be available, they chose not to work with the organization.

This was way back before the Ramsey's "lost" all their money. They obviously never had any intention of paying a reward. Or knew they'd never have to do so.

Trish I hope you are adding this to your list....Thanks Autumn Born, I'd forgotten about Crimestoppers.

Didn't the Ramsey's publish a seperate phone number also at first? One the crimestoppers said had no affiliation with them?

Some opponent of the Rams ought to ask him if the reward is still in place, and if not where did the money go? To pay the lawyers?

 

[solosamtheman]

I don’t think the Ramseys killed their daughter. I do think they are fairly shallow, not very sophisticated or highly intelligent, and certainly not up to creating a huge coverup and fooling those who have had years of experience in dealing with both the guilty and the innocent.

Well thats the thing tipper. They haven't fooled them. What has happened is a mix of sloppy police work, combined with lazy DAs and others who are afraid to mess with the rich and powerful. Just by pure luck some other things happened that added to the confusion and chaos. And I'm sure that by now when Patsy considers all that really happened, she really does believe in miracles. And hey, how bout that Lou guy? Is he awesome or what?

 

[Tricia]

That's what I thought you were thinking. And it may be what John Ramsey is thinking too when he says "private." However, to be accurate, the IRS also defines a private foundation as follows:

Private Foundations
Every organization that qualifies for tax exemption as an organization described in section 501(c)(3) is a private foundation unless it falls into one of the categories specifically excluded from the definition of that term (referred to in section 509(a)). In addition, certain nonexempt charitable trusts are also treated as private foundations. Organizations that fall into the excluded categories are generally those that either have broad public support or actively function in a supporting relationship to such organizations.

So the question becomes: what kind of foundation is he refering to? A simple separate checking account? A tax exempt foundation? A nonexempt foundation? A private non-operating foundation? A private operating foundation? As a candidate for office I think it is a legitimate question for him to answer. But I don't think any conclusions can be drawn with the information available so far.

Tipper,

Thank you so much. As usual when you deal with the I.R.S. a yes or no question really isn't that simple.

This is a guess on my part but I have a feeling it's a simple checking account under the name of The JonBenet Ramsey Foundation. I would guess they have one for Beth too. That way if they want to make any donations they can do so in the names of their daughters.

You know what? There is nothing wrong with that. No one should criticize them if they choose to have it set up this way.

Tipper you brought up the points that I have the most problems with. What is John talking about? Also if they have chosen to now have a private foundation what about all the promises made in DOI? What happened to John's follow through?

 

[Britt]

As a candidate for office I think it is a legitimate question for him to answer. But I don't think any conclusions can be drawn with the information available so far.

Fine, tipper, you send them money... lol

Well thats the thing tipper. They haven't fooled them. What has happened is a mix of sloppy police work, combined with lazy DAs and others who are afraid to mess with the rich and powerful. Just by pure luck some other things happened that added to the confusion and chaos. And I'm sure that by now when Patsy considers all that really happened, she really does believe in miracles. And hey, how bout that Lou guy? Is he awesome or what?

:clap: solosam, how very true. Well put.

 

[Sabrina]

"Didn't the Ramsey's publish a seperate phone number also at first? One the crimestoppers said had no affiliation with them? "


I do recall that an incorrect phone number was published in D.O.I. as the tip line!

 

[Show Me]

Oh boy, Sabrina....what the voters in Michigan can look forward to if John is elected.

Wrong phone numbers, wrong web sites, blantantly bypassing other organizations rules and regulations, stealing foundation money donated by others. Don't ask John to explain it either....'cause it's ALWAYS someone else's fault, or he doesn't remember.

 

[Shawna]

What I find interesting is that the treasurer for the JBR foundation is Gail Heinzman. Gail is a certified chartered accountant in Colorado. Her husband is the CEO of SourceSpring Software in Boulder. Would anyone know if the Heinzman's were part of the Ramsey's inner circle of friends?

http://www.sourcespringsoftware.com/Company.html