Evidence -- Body, Blood, Clothes, etc.

[Shlock Homes]

Card Swiping - Ray Clark's card was swiped into the same room that Annie Le was in. Have they released the time? Was it 5 minutes? Was it 10 minutes? According to the article below, card swipes show him leaving the building several times. But they don't mention the video evidence showing that. Wouldn't he have been seen on video, or is there a way to enter and leave the building without being seen on camera?

http://www.courant.com/news/connect...nie-le-raymond-clark-iii-yale,0,1800237.story

Police believe that Clark tried to clean up the crime scene after disposing of Le's body, sources said. The computer record of his movements between laboratories using his swipe card show he left the building several times and also moved between several rooms, including some that he had no reason to be in, a source said.

Blood Evidence - it's been written that there was blood evidence on some equipment and tiny droplets in the room. If she was beaten, there should have been quite a bit, and it would have been all over the place. Plus, there would have been evidence of thorough cleaning. Also, the room in question, was it the mice room that Annie Le's work was located in?


And regarding the ease at which DNA can be transferred from one person to another.

http://www.newsday.com/long-island/...rney-to-file-complaint-on-new-leaks-1.1462449

"DNA can be transferred in many, many ways, and when people work together, DNA can be transferred in ways that are very legitimate," said Hartford defense attorney Michael Georgetti

At this point, Ray Clark is using a public defender. Unless this defender has a good track record, I have a feeling he's already screwed. Wrongful convictions are sometimes due to a person not having adequate counsel to defend themselves. If you can afford a high-priced, yet successful defense lawyer, you've got a better chance than using a public defender who is employed by the government.

 

[PatientOne]

Y'know, that story about the fishing hooks and gum has bugged me, too. A little wad of duct tape would have done the trick. I don't think gum would work at all for this.

I'm not at the point where I'd go so far as to say RC didn't do it, but there are definitely some things about the case that's being built in the media that just don't make sense.

Fishing hooks, wire, and gum suggest to me the green pen wasn't jammed in a crevice and needed to be pried out. It suggests to me the possibility that the pen was in the chase and needed to be fished out.

 

[Shlock Homes]

Fishing hooks, wire, and gum suggest to me the green pen wasn't jammed in a crevice and needed to be pried out. It suggests to me the possibility that the pen was in the chase and needed to be fished out.

You should try it first to see if it's even practical. It doesn't matter whether it's in a crevice, chase, or on the floor in front of him. You can't stick gum well enough to a pen to lift it. You need an adhesive like duct tape, fly paper, etc...

How did they know he had it the next day? Were they searching people's belongings? If he volunteered his bag, then he had nothing to hide. Otherwise, they probably would have needed warrants to do that if he refused.

 

[eyes4crime]

Card Swiping - Ray Clark's card was swiped into the same room that Annie Le was in. Have they released the time? Was it 5 minutes? Was it 10 minutes? According to the article below, card swipes show him leaving the building several times. But they don't mention the video evidence showing that. Wouldn't he have been seen on video, or is there a way to enter and leave the building without being seen on camera?

http://www.courant.com/news/connect...nie-le-raymond-clark-iii-yale,0,1800237.story

Police believe that Clark tried to clean up the crime scene after disposing of Le's body, sources said. The computer record of his movements between laboratories using his swipe card show he left the building several times and also moved between several rooms, including some that he had no reason to be in, a source said.

Blood Evidence - it's been written that there was blood evidence on some equipment and tiny droplets in the room. If she was beaten, there should have been quite a bit, and it would have been all over the place. Plus, there would have been evidence of thorough cleaning. Also, the room in question, was it the mice room that Annie Le's work was located in?


And regarding the ease at which DNA can be transferred from one person to another.

http://www.newsday.com/long-island/...rney-to-file-complaint-on-new-leaks-1.1462449

"DNA can be transferred in many, many ways, and when people work together, DNA can be transferred in ways that are very legitimate," said Hartford defense attorney Michael Georgetti

At this point, Ray Clark is using a public defender. Unless this defender has a good track record, I have a feeling he's already screwed. Wrongful convictions are sometimes due to a person not having adequate counsel to defend themselves. If you can afford a high-priced, yet successful defense lawyer, you've got a better chance than using a public defender who is employed by the government.

From the time-line:

Sept. 8th (10:00a) - Annie on video being let into building on Amistad.

- moments later passed through basement lab area
- Annie swipes her way into a separate room of lab (last card swipe for Annie)
- CLARK enters same room short time later
- Clark moves around laboratory entering rooms he normally would not be in.
- Clark swipes into another area -- the place where Le's body eventually found after five days, stuffed into a 2-foot crawl space behind a wall.
- Clark swiped a total of 10 times including after hours
-Clark spends an hour in the room with Annie's body.
THE ABOVE INFORMATION FROM COMPUTERIZED CARD SWIPES

Shlock Homes: Not sure what room Clark was in for an hour - the room she was murdered in or the room where the wall had been deconstructed so as to fit her body. IMO it would be next to impossible to overlook a fresh crime scene or recent work on the wall. Also, every person in the building was caught on camera and followed via card swipes, leaving little, if any, guesswork for LE as to the whereabouts and identity of each person. Regarding the transfer of DNA: Tiny blood droplets found in a room may not by itself, be incriminating, but if the DNA was in the form of blood, hair, fibers, and/or tissue on Clark or on his clothes - the forensics could be overwhelming and solidify guilt.

Regarding the competency of an attorney - Our Constitution guarantees a good defense and if a person feels he/she doesn't have a competent defense, a suit can be brought forward. I'm worried about that very thing in the Drew Peterson case. Usually I look at a case through the eyes of the defense and prosecution - thanks for being the eyes of the defense for Clark.

 

[YellowDog]

I wonder if anyone else swiped into that room after Annie besides Clark? How do you think the body was transported from one room to another? Laundry cart? Was anyone else in the basement area during that time frame and, if so, how did he avoid attracting attention? Was the hour spent with Annie's body in the first room where the murder occured or in the room where her body was placed in the wall? What was he doing back in the building after hours? Cleaning up? Was Annie dead when her body was placed in the wall or did she die later and he went back to make sure she was dead?

 

[Noway]

My understanding of the media reports that LE wants me to read to bolster their case is that of all the cards that were swiped, only Ray Clark went everywhere that Annie Le did (and as noted above, stayed for an hour in the room where her body was later found).

I'll find that media report link. Until then .... IMO

ETA: Some of these may have been posted, but I'm putting them here as I come across them. My thoughts are in blue and red.

Along with the defensive wounds and the flunked lie detector test, investigators looking into the murder of Yale student Annie Le focused on a lab technician named Raymond Clark because of e-mails about the care of laboratory mice.

In the e-mails, Clark is said to criticize Le for not adhering to the protocols for tending the mice kept in the basement as part of her lab's ongoing experiments.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_..._brutal_tale_be_about_mice.html#ixzz0SFzqWvWQ
​

I'm confused. Media does not seem clear on whether the messages were email or text messages (maybe both?). Regardless, text messages can be sent from computers and email messages can be sent from phones.

Investigators also noted swipe card records that are said to show Clark usually went through the building in an orderly fashion in accordance with the demands of his work.

But the swipe card records from the day Le disappeared show Clark moving from room to room with no apparent logic, at points going to places unrelated to his job.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_..._brutal_tale_be_about_mice.html#ixzz0SFzHdjWD

Clark left the building at the time of a fire alarm. Surveillance camera footage is said to show him looking considerably more distraught than could be explained by a simple evacuation.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_..._brutal_tale_be_about_mice.html#ixzz0SFza1TQ5
​

Investigators traced Le's and Clark's movements through their computerized swipe cards, said the source, who is familiar with the investigation. Le entered the Yale laboratory at 10 Amistad St. at about 10 a.m. on Sept. 8. She passed through a basement lab area moments later. Then she swiped her way into a separate room of that lab.

http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/yale-annie-le/hc-annie-le-raymond-clark-yale-slaying,0,857789.story

IMO that makes: 1) Main entrance 2) Basement lab area and 3) Separate room of the basement lab for Annie Le.

Clark entered that same room a short time later, the source said, citing the computer records. Le was never seen again and her card was never used again.

Clark had moved around the laboratory area quite a bit that day, including entering rooms that he normally would not expected to be in, the source said.

Clark also swiped into another area -- the place where Le's body was eventually found after five days, stuffed into a 2-foot crawl space behind a wall

http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/yale-annie-le/hc-annie-le-raymond-clark-yale-slaying,0,857789.story

That same room is "the separate room of the basement lab where Annie Le's last swipe took place.

IMO, this means Ray left the "separate room of the lab" and entered one that required a lab swipe. IT WAS HERE that Annie's body was eventually found, but her card was never used again after entering "the separate room" mentioned above.

Based on the article above: Her card was not used after she entered the separate room of the lab. Yet she was found in ANOTHER area, one that required card swiping. How did she get there? Hmm ... whose card was used in that area: Ray Clark's.

Was anyone else's card used to enter that room from September 8 to September 13?

 

[Sloof]

I seem to have remember it being reported (kudos if you find this for me) that not only were a simple keycard entry needed but also a metal key for many of the areas that RC visited during the time when his movements were extremely erratic in the building after AL's death including after-hours.

 

[scandi]

You should try it first to see if it's even practical. It doesn't matter whether it's in a crevice, chase, or on the floor in front of him. You can't stick gum well enough to a pen to lift it. You need an adhesive like duct tape, fly paper, etc...

How did they know he had it the next day? Were they searching people's belongings? If he volunteered his bag, then he had nothing to hide. Otherwise, they probably would have needed warrants to do that if he refused.

Hi Sherlock, Sometimes the most intelligent of people are not always smart. If he used what he had rigged together he evidently had not thought about the application to realize it would not work.


BTW, if it was chewed sugarless gum it would stick to something even if it was wet! lol

 

[Shlock Homes]

Shlock Homes: Not sure what room Clark was in for an hour - the room she was murdered in or the room where the wall had been deconstructed so as to fit her body. IMO it would be next to impossible to overlook a fresh crime scene or recent work on the wall. Also, every person in the building was caught on camera and followed via card swipes, leaving little, if any, guesswork for LE as to the whereabouts and identity of each person. Regarding the transfer of DNA: Tiny blood droplets found in a room may not by itself, be incriminating, but if the DNA was in the form of blood, hair, fibers, and/or tissue on Clark or on his clothes - the forensics could be overwhelming and solidify guilt.

The part about him being in a room for an hour with her body can be misleading. Which room are they referring to? The one with the chase or the one with her mice (is that the last room she swiped into)?

Also, the reports about her body being mutilated to fit into the space, I'm not totally convinced those were false. The unnamed source for all this evidence would not have also thrown out a red herring like that. From the description in that story of broken bones, they were there witnessing the body's removal. I don't think anyone other than police and forensics would have been witness to that, unless they used university maintenance people to open up the chase and they witnessed the body. That could explain the blood, because strangling wouldn't give off blood spatter or lead to bloody clothing.

I would imagine that if Clark was actively engaged in cleaning up the evidence of his crime, including disposing of his clothes, he wouldn't have left it lying around for police to find. It would have been tossed in a dumpster somewhere way out of town, for example.

Regarding the competency of an attorney - Our Constitution guarantees a good defense and if a person feels he/she doesn't have a competent defense, a suit can be brought forward. I'm worried about that very thing in the Drew Peterson case. Usually I look at a case through the eyes of the defense and prosecution - thanks for being the eyes of the defense for Clark.

I've seen so many people have nothing but contempt for Clark based on all the leaks, but they fail to see that the leaks don't point to guilt. And it's also not fair for the defendant to have that information leaked out, but not other information that could exonerate him get released too. Like how many people were in the lab area between 10am and the alarm at 12:40pm when Clark is seen leaving. Or if someone could conceivably get in and out of that area without being seen on camera.

 

[Shlock Homes]

Hi Sherlock, Sometimes the most intelligent of people are not always smart. If he used what he had rigged together he evidently had not thought about the application to realize it would not work.


BTW, if it was chewed sugarless gum it would stick to something even if it was wet! lol

That could be true. But it is a bit of a contradiction. He was able to conceal the evidence of the crime for a number of days, including hiding the body, all without being seen by anybody. And he was bold enough to hang around with all the investigators prowling about. But he wasn't smart enough to dispose of the clothing he wore to commit the murders? And if he dropped his pen in the chase, did anyone notice him with a different pen after, or did he explain what happened to his green pen, which we are only assuming was his trademark pen based on what some unnamed source said. For all we know, he liked to use several pens, or the green pen was only used when signing certain documents.

 

[Shlock Homes]

I wonder if anyone else swiped into that room after Annie besides Clark? How do you think the body was transported from one room to another? Laundry cart? Was anyone else in the basement area during that time frame and, if so, how did he avoid attracting attention? Was the hour spent with Annie's body in the first room where the murder occured or in the room where her body was placed in the wall? What was he doing back in the building after hours? Cleaning up? Was Annie dead when her body was placed in the wall or did she die later and he went back to make sure she was dead?

Those are questions I'd like to know. Were there times when Ray Clark would have been completely alone in that basement to do what he was accused of doing? Did the body get transported within the time they claim he swiped into there? We have to all remember that the coroner hasn't released the time of death yet. We're all assuming she died on September 8th. If she was lured somewhere, drugged, and kept a prisoner for whatever reason, and killed a day or two later, that would of course affect the time of death.

I'd also like to have confirmation on the state of her body. If she was crushed to fit into that space, then that would take a lot of work to do. He couldn't do that without being seen. It would also leave a lot of blood and tissue fragments behind. That might be why they were searching some mouse cage cleaning area.

The police waited a long time to close off the basement. Who knows when the body was moved into place. Did they have posted guards in there to keep an eye on any movements after hours?

Also, there was an interview with a student who said she worked in a room that was right beside where the body was found, and Ryan was there too. Nothing was mentioned if he was nervous, or kept looking at the wall, etc... I think the article is linked in the stickies at the top of the forum. I just remember it being linked in one of these threads.

And was the body placed into the chase using the access panel or door that is used to open it up, or was it in a manner that would have required it to have been placed in there from some other location or method?

 

[Shlock Homes]

Based on the article above: Her card was not used after she entered the separate room of the lab. Yet she was found in ANOTHER area, one that required card swiping. How did she get there? Hmm ... whose card was used in that area: Ray Clark's.

Was anyone else's card used to enter that room from September 8 to September 13?
[/B]

The lab was not closed off, so from my understanding, many people could have come and gone during that time. I can't remember the exact link, someone posted it, but there was an article from an anonymous student who said they worked in the same room or area the body was found with Ray Clark there as well. I don't think it was some out of the way room that didn't get used that often.

If they could put out some diagram information, it would be helpful. If they're basing their body disposal theory on his swipe for that day, then what will they do if her time of death indicates she died some time later? Or what about the number of swipes by other people going into that same area that they claim he went to dispose of her body? They don't really build a convincing case because it's not what they say that concerns me, but what they don't say.

 

[Noway]

I seem to have remember it being reported (kudos if you find this for me) that not only were a simple keycard entry needed but also a metal key for many of the areas that RC visited during the time when his movements were extremely erratic in the building after AL's death including after-hours.

I don't remember anything about a metal key but will search my file where I've copied and pasted a mess of stuff to read later. The only mention of "metal" that I recall is that the chase was covered with a metal panel.

But suffice to say, as far as building security is concerned, they knew, 99.9 percent certain who is in the basement at the time that Annie Le swiped her card, her ID card, and got access. You have to swipe it twice, apparently, to get into that basement lab.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,550663,00.html

 

[Noway]

And I agree that not closing off the lab (but why would they for a missing person?) was a big mistake in hindsight.

If 20 people or 100 people went into that room where Annie was eventually found and only Ray's DNA is found on Annie, I wonder what that means.

ETA: And by "only Ray's DNA is found on Annie" I mean when forensically tested not as reported by the media.

 

[Harmony 2]

EXCELLENT INTERACTIVE TIMELINE

http://www.courant.com/news/connect...ie-le-timeline-vuvox-html,0,2065297.htmlstory

note: clicking on the + signs provides more background information

 

[YellowDog]

Well, here's a thought. Couldn't someone else have gone through those doors at the same time Clark did by going through with him on his swipes? If that be the case, he definitely could have had help with both the killing and the disposal of the body. I wonder if there are surveillance cameras within the building.

 

[Shlock Homes]

Is there a reason why they can't release the full security video of Annie entering the lab?

 

[Shlock Homes]

Well, here's a thought. Couldn't someone else have gone through those doors at the same time Clark did by going through with him on his swipes? If that be the case, he definitely could have had help with both the killing and the disposal of the body. I wonder if there are surveillance cameras within the building.

From what I understand, the building has 70 cameras, but only one showing the basement area at the entrance. I still have yet to find out if there's a way to enter or exit the basement without being seen on video. Maybe the person who killed her never intended for her body to leave the building, otherwise why not kill her on her way to the school from her apartment? Or kidnap her off the street and kill her far away. It would be less risky than committing a murder and hiding the body within the building, unless they wanted her body to stay in there for some twisted reason.

If Clark was trying to conceal other people's identities when swiping, why didn't he use Annie's card when swiping into other areas of the lab? If he knew about the camera at the entrance, then he would have known about the tracked card swipes.

 

[Sola.N]

Excellent points, Shlock. I think this is going to turn out to be an argument that got way out of hand. I don't think this murder was part of a plan.

 

[Shlock Homes]

Excellent points, Shlock. I think this is going to turn out to be an argument that got way out of hand. I don't think this murder was part of a plan.

An argument that must have been heard by someone.