Evil people - and things that don't fit

[Cherokee]

Yes, I think you're right, Cherokee.

Maybe John went along with her because he was terrified not to... lol.

But I still can't figure out what he was sorry for. John Ramsey doesn't strike me as an apologizer. No way. He's a blameshifter, through and through. So for him to say to Fernie, Beuf, Bynum, Hoverstock and whomever else was there at the Fernies on the evening of the 26th, that he was "so sorry," he must've done something pretty damn bad. A victim doesn't apologize.

You're right, Britt. John Ramsey is not an apologizer. But he was under the influence of alcohol that night, and it loosened his tongue and his inhibitions. At that point in time, his tight facade of controlled emotion had a crack in it, and there was a glimpse into the "real" John Ramsey.

We apologize when we feel responsible for something. Obviously, John felt responsible in some way for what happened to JonBenet.

John may have been directly involved ... OR, he may have felt responsible for not preventing what happened. If there was a rage incident involving Patsy, perhaps he blamed himself for not being there to intervene. Perhaps, he had seen Patsy's flashes of temper, but never believed she could have gotten so out of control. The stress of her chemo, of turning 40, of her hormonal changes, of the Christmas Holidays, etc. could have accerbated Patsy's anger.

Maybe John thought if he'd only BEEN there, he could have prevented JonBenet's death and everything that went with it. But John had been emotionally and even physically absent from his family for a long time. (He never even accompanied Patsy ONE time for chemotherapy.) John had been going through the motions with them while spending his real time and energy on his pet planes and business.

John didn't try to comfort Patsy the morning of Dec. 26th. He never offered her his arms of support, nor a word of loving compassion. According to police reports, they never even looked at each other. Even more telling, Patsy didn't seek comfort from John, nor offer him any.

This points to another dynamic at work. John wasn't just feeling sorry about not preventing what happened ... he was also feeling sorry for himself. "I'm sorry I let this happen to you, John." He was trying to comfort himself, as there was no comfort coming from the one person who had fixed everything for him in the past.



IMO

 

[Eagle1]

Not that it completely matters who wrote them. The point is, an unknown 3rd party who would exactly fit the description someone just gave about Jameson, who's got nothing to do with my point. I never go there any more.

I really think Patsy wrote them, and I tell you I recognize a 3-word phrase that's probably his trademark, an expression not many people use.

I forget the exact words, have my printed out copy in a locked file cabinet, but the phone caller pestering Patsy or whoever wrote them was obviously in a sort of competition with JonBenet for the writer's affections, and I never have heard any psychiatrists comment on this kind of personality disorder, probably doesn't have a name yet, inordinate amount of jealousy, guilt, and whatever, that he tries to project onto scapegoats. Has anyone heard any of the TV preachers yell, "You know what you've done!"?

Maybe they don't. It may be accuser-of-the-brethren time, that Jerry Jenkins and Tim LaHaya wrote some fiction books about. I bet this same unknown character caused all the assassinations, and posthumously had victims all accused of having affairs, didn't give them their rightful chance to deny it. If he had anything on them, they'd have been in court like Martha Stewart and making money with a book like Clinton. Right?

Imagine how he could bully everyone in the whole world by just saying very ominously, "YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'VE DONE!"

 

[tipper]

...John didn't try to comfort Patsy the morning of Dec. 26th. He never offered her his arms of support, nor a word of loving compassion. According to police reports, they never even looked at each other. Even more telling, Patsy didn't seek comfort from John, nor offer him any.

...
IMO

Not true according to Jedamus and Morlock. If Harmer and Hickman didn't write down what they said then BPD is guilty of only collecting the information they thought would aid their case.

 

[BlueCrab]

IF that was the determination (Burke being the responsible party for JonBenet's death/accident/whatever) by the Grand Jury/BPD/DA's officer/whomever - the case files would be closed.

TLynn,

As you know, the file is never closed on an unsolved murder. If the file is closed then it means the crime has been solved. If the D.A.'s office closed the file, then the next question from the media and others would be "Well, who did it?" That question can't be answered truthfully without violating the Colorado Childrens Code that protects the identity of children involved in adult crimes.

JMO

 

[wenchie]

Wow! Even a total amatuer like myself can look at that handwriting comparison and see that she HAD to have written that note. I can't see why she wasn't arrested on that alone.

As for someone being obssesed with Patsy: I find that to be an odd theory. In one of the books written about the case, someone was quoted as saying that Patsy was John's "Jackie O". Jackie O? I don't get it. In looks....style...manners....poise....I can't see it at all, even as the most low-budget "Jackie O". She's got a whiny voice, and only the thinnest veneer of "something" (certainly not gentility) convering her tough self.

 

[Jayelles]

>>We apologize when we feel responsible for something. Obviously, John felt responsible in some way for what happened to JonBenet.


I don't think that people react rationally in tragedy. When I went into labour at 5 months with our second child, I apologised to everyone. It's one of the things that stands out in our minds actually. My waters broke in the town centre and we rushed into a nearby pharmacy. I remember apologising to the pharmacist when he showed me to the loo and supplied me with sanitary towels. I apologised to the ambulance men for making a mess in the ambulance. I apologised to the midwives when I messed up the bed and they had to change it. I particularly remember apologising to the midwives for presenting them with something unpleasant to deal with. Later, when they took me to theatre to remove the placenta which hadn't been complete, I remember apologising to the theatre staff.

Throughout it all, I apologised profusely to my husband for losing his baby. I blamed myself and thought I must have done something to cause the pregnancy to end. I don't think this is uncommon. The fact is, I didn't "do" anything. We later found out that the placenta had been abnormal and that had the baby lived, he would undoubtedly have been damaged. With knowledge and time, I was able to accept that it was "Nature's way".

 

[Barbara]

Wow! Even a total amatuer like myself can look at that handwriting comparison and see that she HAD to have written that note. I can't see why she wasn't arrested on that alone.

As for someone being obssesed with Patsy: I find that to be an odd theory. In one of the books written about the case, someone was quoted as saying that Patsy was John's "Jackie O". Jackie O? I don't get it. In looks....style...manners....poise....I can't see it at all, even as the most low-budget "Jackie O". She's got a whiny voice, and only the thinnest veneer of "something" (certainly not gentility) convering her tough self.

I have met Jackie Onassis along with JFK Jr.

Take my word for this:

Patsy Ramsey is NO Jackie O. Patsy Ramsey does not even come close. It's unfair to Jackie to even mention them both in the same conversation.

Jackie O was all class! (and JFK JR. was the nicest guy)

 

[Show Me]

Sorry you have a miscarriage Jayelles...I never miscarried, though a lot of relatives did. They all went through a time when each felt guilty of not doing something right to save the baby.

I do have to question John's statement, one week after his daughter's murder, when he told us on national tv he wasn't ANGRY at the killer. He sure went through all the stages of grief quickly!!!

 

[Cherokee]

>>We apologize when we feel responsible for something. Obviously, John felt responsible in some way for what happened to JonBenet.

I don't think that people react rationally in tragedy .... Throughout it all, I apologised profusely to my husband for losing his baby. I blamed myself and thought I must have done something to cause the pregnancy to end.

Jay, I understand what you are saying ... because it is what I was trying to say earlier, but obviously didn't make clear.

We apologize when we feel responsible for something, even if, in reality, we are not.

It doesn't matter if we really ARE responsible for it ... just as you initially blamed yourself, John may have in some way blamed himself. The reality was, you were not to blame, but that didn't keep you from saying you were sorry for what happened. John may not have been directly responsible for JonBenet's death ... but something in his mind MADE him feel responsible, and sorry for what happened.


IMO

 

[Shylock]

jameson is not my mother-in-law.
Your quote is also wrong.

The point was that my mother-in-law has about as much to do with this case as jameson (zero) - but I won't waste people's time and the forums' bandwidth by posting my personal disagreements with her.

And since I didn't quote anything, it can't be very wrong.

IMO

 

[Shylock]

Wow! Even a total amatuer like myself can look at that handwriting comparison and see that she HAD to have written that note. I can't see why she wasn't arrested on that alone.

The problem is that the ransom note writing is "disguised". Handwriting experts never deal with "fake" writing, it works against the whole theory of handwriting identification where you are looking for matching characteristics. Because the writing is disguised, Patsy couldn't be positively identified as the author. But, there are enough matching characteristics, such as the ones you see, that no expert could ever eliminate her.

I think the best statement came from Leonard Speckin who said he could not identify Patsy as being the author, but the chances of it being a stranger are zero.

 

[Jayelles]

The point was that my mother-in-law has about as much to do with this case as jameson (zero) - but I won't waste people's time and the forums' bandwidth by posting my personal disagreements with her.

And since I didn't quote anything, it can't be very wrong.

IMO

I see..... Well, I'll tell you what Shylock, why don't you click on my hat (and ditto with all those other posters whose posts you seem to find disagreeable) and select "Ignore" and that way you won't waste bandwidth reading posts that don't interest you.

If Tricia, objects to my posts, I'm sure she will let me know.

And I suggest you go back and look at your first post to me, read the quote you made and then check back and read what I posted. You did make a quote and it was wrong.

 

[Britt]

John may not have been directly responsible for JonBenet's death ... but something in his mind MADE him feel responsible, and sorry for what happened.

You make some excellent points, Cherokee, and I know exactly what you mean.

I just don't see John Ramsey as someone who blames himself for anything, even when he IS at fault, much less when he isn't (directly).

Also, it seems to me that if he were not personally involved in what happened to JonBenet and that Patsy (or Burke) singlehandedly brought about this disaster, his emotion would be the same as if an intruder had dropped in to destroy his world: rage. He would've been furious, not contrite. IMO the self-pity wallow would come later when he realized the world wasn't buying the con.

 

[Britt]

In one of the books written about the case, someone was quoted as saying that Patsy was John's "Jackie O". Jackie O? I don't get it. In looks....style...manners....poise....I can't see it at all, even as the most low-budget "Jackie O".

Ain't that the truth... lol. I think it just shows that John Ramsey is as out of touch with reality as his bargain basement first lady. And to actually attempt a political career... I shudder to think what grandiose visions these two have. :crazy:

 

[Show Me]

I found it strange....Patsy appears more concerned over her appearance, JonBenet runs a close second. DOI paperback page 35.

"On December 28, a department store in denver sent some clothing to the Fernies' so I could pick something to wear to the funeral, since all our clothes were still in the house. Roxy and my sisters were there to help me sort through the dresses and hopefully come up with something I could wear to my daughter's funeral. I chose a black knit, two piece dress.
At that moment a picture of Jackie Kennedy abruptly flashed across my mind. I remembered seeing her wearing a black veil, walking hand in hand with her two children to JFK's grave site. Now I could see why people wore veils at such times: the filmy material surrounds you like a cocoon, overshadowing your face and closing out the world. With the covering and protection, I could cry, be private in my grief. I decided I wanted to wear a veil to JonBenet's funeral, so I asked one of my friends to help. She found a sheer black scart and attached it to a black felt hat, then packed it for the trip to Atlanta.
On Sunday, December 29, when I came down the Fernie's stairs in the black dress to go to the hastily arranged memorial service at St. John's Church, John glanced up and said. 'You look beautiful' How I appreciated his compliment and his love. I took a deep breath and was finally ready to face the service for my daughter."
-----------
Yep....she's thinking how to look like Jackie O.

 

[narlacat]

I found it strange....Patsy appears more concerned over her appearance, JonBenet runs a close second. DOI paperback page 35.

"On December 28, a department store in denver sent some clothing to the Fernies' so I could pick something to wear to the funeral, since all our clothes were still in the house. Roxy and my sisters were there to help me sort through the dresses and hopefully come up with something I could wear to my daughter's funeral. I chose a black knit, two piece dress.
At that moment a picture of Jackie Kennedy abruptly flashed across my mind. I remembered seeing her wearing a black veil, walking hand in hand with her two children to JFK's grave site. Now I could see why people wore veils at such times: the filmy material surrounds you like a cocoon, overshadowing your face and closing out the world. With the covering and protection, I could cry, be private in my grief. I decided I wanted to wear a veil to JonBenet's funeral, so I asked one of my friends to help. She found a sheer black scart and attached it to a black felt hat, then packed it for the trip to Atlanta.
On Sunday, December 29, when I came down the Fernie's stairs in the black dress to go to the hastily arranged memorial service at St. John's Church, John glanced up and said. 'You look beautiful' How I appreciated his compliment and his love. I took a deep breath and was finally ready to face the service for my daughter."
-----------
Yep....she's thinking how to look like Jackie O.

I havent read DOI and I probably never will if I have to buy it. I could never give money to the Ram's.
If that paragraph is anything to go by, I dont think I could read it. What a load of......
What is Patsy talking about....'finally ready to face the service'.....for gods sake it wasnt even a week after Jonbenet had died....how could she be 'finally ready'. I would never be ready and certainly not after 3 days.
John saying 'you look beautiful' just goes to show how superficial the Ram's were. For gods sake it wasnt about Pasty, it was about Jonbenet.

I always thought the title DEATH OF INNOCENCE meant that they lost their innocent child but someone told me otherwise. Did the Ram's explain the title??
Just curious.

 

[wenchie]

I'm still so hung up on something that apparently means nothing to most others, and that is Patsy's appearance when the police first came to the door.

For a woman to have a total of about 5 hours sleep, wake up some time around 5 a.m., shower, put on full makeup & jewelry (and Patsy wears a LOT of foundation & other makeup) and then get completely dressed in the clothing she was wearing the night before (including blazer/jacket) before even going downstairs to make coffee is just beyond my understanding.

Who puts on a blazer before they've even had coffee? Who wouldn't dress down a little bit and put on something a little more casual for a private plane ride where only your family will see you? Who does all that before even going downstairs at such an early, early hour?

I don't believe that she ever went to bed the night before.

 

[GuruJosh]

Yes good point- i would be interested to know.. BC - in your BDI theories, how do you explain why Patsy apparently seemed to have not showered or changed clothes all night? At what time do you think Patsy and/or John discovered something was wrong with JonBenet, and in what manner was the discovery made, in your theories?

 

[BlueCrab]

Yes good point- i would be interested to know.. BC - in your BDI theories, how do you explain why Patsy apparently seemed to have not showered or changed clothes all night? At what time do you think Patsy and/or John discovered something was wrong with JonBenet, and in what manner was the discovery made, in your theories?

GuruJosh,

First of all, the Ramseys didn't get up at 5:30 AM as they assert. They would have never made it to the airport by 6:30 AM. They had to have set the alarm for an earlier wake-up time -- more like 4:30.

But IMO the Ramseys found JonBenet's body even earlier, probably around 3:00 AM. In the police interviews John admitted he usually had to get up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom. I think that John, during his usual stroll to the bathroom very early that morning, heard something going on downstairs and investigated. He caught the boys in the middle of trying to coverup what they had just done.

Patsy seems to have let the cat out of the bag during the 1998 interviews. Patsy was discussing with Detective Haney what she had been doing immediately after she discovered the note on the stairs and JonBenet was not in her bed and she had not yet made the 911 call at 5:52 AM. At his point Patsy had not yet notified John who, according to Patsy, was still upstairs getting dressed.

TOM HANEY: "So you're here at the base of the stairs?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "Yes."

TOM HANEY: "You scream for John?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "Yes."

TOM HANEY: "Do you remember exactly what words you used, was it more than just John or -- "

PATSY RAMSEY: "I remember my voice was just cracking. I mean it was like JOHN, like that. I mean like, I can't even, you know, I hear my scream and I hear his scream when he came up from the basement, I mean it was just a horrible thing. You know, it was just -- "

An emotional Patsy, IMO reliving the moment when she first saw the body, had just unconsciously blurted out the truth. Patsy described them both screaming as John came up from the basement carrying JonBenet. It was about 3:00 AM.

At this point Patsy had no interest in taking a shower. She hurriedly put on the same clothes she had worn the night before and she and John got busy with the crime scene staging.

BlueCrab

 

[GuruJosh]

yes that makes sense.

are you sure though that Patsy may not have meant, "my scream when i digested the meaning of the note was similar to the one y'all heard when john found JB at 1 o clock that day"??

but i agree that the more logical reading is that she slipped up in her statement...