Explain BDI to me

[johnjay]

Agreed. She had to be obviously dead... Otherwise they would have called 911. They knew there was no hope. So they did what they could to salvage their son's future


That makes sense to me.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Thanks otg for putting into words what I found difficult to do. I have been BDI for years but have problems expressing myself.. I do not believe that Patsy could have actually strangled her daughter. I believe she was deceased when Patsy found her. Everything done from that point was to point away from Burke.

But she was not deceased when strangled - Patsy may have believed she was dead.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Linda7NJ]

No they weren't monsters... They found her dead, with no hope of reviving her. They staged the garrote to make it look like an intruder came in and murdered her. If she was found hanging they cut her down, and added the handle, and used the rest of the cord to tie the wrists. And cleaned her up to hide the fact that she was molested.

She was not dead when strangled.

She was strangled 45 minutes up to two hours after head bash, based on brain swelling.

If a person is moved after they've died - the medical examiner knows. As soon as the heart stops pumping blood it begins to pool due to gravity.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[TeaTime]

What if the head wound wasn't even known about by the parents when they found her dead? It wasn't even obvious to the ME until he had cut open and peeled back her scalp. Maybe the head bash wasn't volunteered information the parents were given. What if by the time the parents found her, she was already dead and obviously strangled and sexually assaulted. What if presented with that, they decided to stage the whole thing to look like something completely different so no one would know exactly what happened, and then they completely wrote out any association with Burke or even her being awake when they got home to eliminate the rest of the family?

Then why wipe the flashlight free of prints and DNA?

 

[TeaTime]

The problem I have with that is that I can't believe that Patsy would have strangled her daughter to death - for any reason. If she found JBR knocked unconscious and sexually abused I think she would have called 911 and hoped for the best - especially since it wasn't obvious how serious the head wound was.

Not if she knew her son did it and there was no hope for JBR.

 

[RaeL]

She was not dead when strangled.

She was strangled 45 minutes up to two hours after head bash, based on brain swelling.

If a person is moved after they've died - the medical examiner knows. As soon as the heart stops pumping blood it begins to pool due to gravity.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I have heard 2 different theories on the amount of elapsed time between the head bash and strangulation... I'm going with the first one offered (I believe) when autopsy was done... Minutes only.. They could not determine which came first for some time. The 45 mins-2 hour time frame is more recent, and I'm not sure which one is more accurate - or if either can/has been proven.

The blood will pool upon death, but there is a window of 30 mins or so before it coagulates and shows discoloration on the skin.

 

[johnjay]

Not if she knew her son did it and there was no hope for JBR.

If JBR wasn't obviously dead, how would Patsy know there was no hope for JBR?

Keep in mind that the extent of the head wound was not visible to her. The autopsy team was surprised at what they found when the cut into ...

 

[otg]

I'm positive Patsy stated that JonBenet played "Kitty" with Daphne White, not Burke. (I'll do my best to locate the source.)

Don't bother looking for it, tea -- it was in one of her transcripted interviews, and yes, she said she played that (IIRC) with Daphne. I don't know (obviously) what was said or used to lure her to the basement. That was just an example of what might have been used. The often-repeated refrain is that JonBenet was afraid of the basement. But that was based on something a former nanny had said based on her experience with JonBenet when she was younger. Was she still afraid of the basement? I don't know. Could she have been coerced into going there with someone older who she trusted? I don't know that either. But I do believe she walked down there on her own and wasn't carried or dragged.

 

[otg]

(bbm)

I agree with this so much... The "Stagers" found their daughter already dead... Nothing else makes sense regarding RDI... I do believe it was a horrible accident, but the fact that JBR was sexually violated, producing blood on her legs, and strangled caused the parents to see the kidnapping scenario as the only way to preserve their son's reputation as well as their own. If they had found her alive I believe they would have called 911.

The things that make IDI impossible for me to believe is not only the ransom note, but the fact that JBR was cleaned up. If IDI then what was the purpose of doing that?

Exactly, RaeL. Any investigator should start from that point. Why would the "intruder" responsible for that, take the time to clean up the evidence of it before they left the house? If that doesn't make sense (it doesn't), who would want her bloody thighs cleaned up before her body was found?

 

[zencompass]

Thanks otg for putting into words what I found difficult to do. I have been BDI for years but have problems expressing myself.. I do not believe that Patsy could have actually strangled her daughter. I believe she was deceased when Patsy found her. Everything done from that point was to point away from Burke.

I agree that this scenario makes sense to me as well because I do not believe either R. could strangle JBR - I've seen the deep furrow
around her little neck and seems to me that someone with violent rage/hate did this. I do not believe the strangulation was part of the staging.

 

[zencompass]

When Burke said that his mother came into his room saying "where's my baby, where's my baby?", my first thought was she was asking
Burke where the heck JonBenet was because J.B . was not in her room.

J.B . was already strangled and deceased. The staging began. JMO

 

[otg]

Hi, Linda. Been a long time since we've seen you. WB.

She was not dead when strangled.

Agreed.

She was strangled 45 minutes up to two hours after head bash, based on brain swelling.

No, that estimated was based on more than just the brain swelling. The only thing the ME said in reference to cerebral edema was:

The 1450 gm brain has a normal overall architecture. Mild narrowing of the sulci and flattening of the gyri are seen. No inflammation is identified.
​

But 1450 grams is beyond typical for a six y.o. female. Kolar gave the impression in his book that the edema and amount of blood (even though others keep mistakenly referring to the "small amount of bleeding") were what Dr. Rorke-Adams had based her opinion on. But in a podcast with Tricia, he seemed to add more to what was considered in coming to that time frame:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...G!-AUTOPSY-PHOTOS!***&p=10964270#post10964270

Other "experts"have estimated shorter time frames, and in fact, some have even suggested the head blow came after the strangulation. I disagree with that extended time frame for reasons I explained in the following post:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...G!-AUTOPSY-PHOTOS!***&p=10931908#post10931908

If a person is moved after they've died - the medical examiner knows. As soon as the heart stops pumping blood it begins to pool due to gravity.

Yes, the blood begins pooling shortly after death. But it doesn't become apparent until well after actual death:

In JonBenet's case, there is no way Meyer would have any idea whether or not she was moved. He spent less than ten minutes inside the house (as the coroner -- not a medical examiner) when he pronounced her dead. He didn't document any of the lividity on her underside when he saw her, and he didn't even look at the location where her body had been found so he could compare its surface to the livor mortis pattern. He didn't even conduct any tests that would give him a better idea of the actual TOD. Due to his apparent lack of interest in investigating the circumstances of her death (after all, his Christmas holiday had been interrupted with this inconvenient death), there is no way investigators can know whether or not her body was moved.

 

[otg]

Then why wipe the flashlight free of prints and DNA?

"Guilty knowledge" because it had been used during the staging? Actually, I don't know. Was the Maglite even tested for DNA? I know only that they were unable to develop any usable fingerprints.

 

[otg]

I agree that this scenario makes sense to me as well because I do not believe either R. could strangle JBR - I've seen the deep furrow
around her little neck and seems to me that someone with violent rage/hate did this. I do not believe the strangulation was part of the staging.

The depth of the furrow develops postmortem when it is left in place for an extended period of time. It is not an indication of the force used in the strangulation. But you're right, zencompass, that the cord was not part of the staging. I do think thought that the paintbrush was (but that's just my opinion).

 

[TeaTime]

If JBR wasn't obviously dead, how would Patsy know there was no hope for JBR?

Keep in mind that the extent of the head wound was not visible to her. The autopsy team was surprised at what they found when the cut into ...

Once the story was told, maybe they used the flashlight to check for dilation and found none. Brain dead, still breathing, then strangulation to stop the lingering death.

It is simply my opinion that the person who hit her in the head is not the person who staged the scene, although I am quite sure that LE disagrees. Somehow, an accidental death caused by an angry child who didn't know his own strength, covered up by protective parents is more easy to swallow than a crazed mother crashing a flashlight into her beloved child's head over a wet sheet and then strangling her when she just wouldn't die.

 

[Lamima]

The depth of the furrow develops postmortem when it is left in place for an extended period of time. It is not an indication of the force used in the strangulation. But you're right, zencompass, that the cord was not part of the staging. I do think thought that the paintbrush was (but that's just my opinion).

Never considered that. That does make sense though.