Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #4

[BeginnersLuck]

Your thoughts are not alone with concern for the other siblings.

I lost my mother when I was young and my father was in deep grief. I remember tip toeing around, trying my best to be as good of a girl as possible. It hurt me so much to see him in pain that I never went through the grief process myself and raised myself basically. I was very scared and confused. There was no counseling. So, when I see a loss in a family, I always try and share my experience in hopes that other adults with be encouraged to get counseling for children.

We are in a much different era now, with good access to grief counseling. Parents can't be forced unless there is intervention to see that their children get this much needed care. There situation is much different than mine because of all the media. They may have problems trusting doctors and hospitals from things they have overheard. I have wondered who is meeting their need over the last weeks.

I have thought about these siblings who also seem to have been lost in all of this and hope that someone will be looking out for them as well as making sure that Jahi's body is properly cared for.

 

[momrids6]

If they took her home just the sound of that vent machine would give the siblings children nightmares. I don't think they ever wanted to take her home, but this has blown up so big It looks like their only option if they are determined to take her out of the hospital. Jmo

Ciao

When I was 19, I got to the hospital and was hauling down the hall to my grandfather- who was way down the hall in some room. He evidently felt me coming, because he sure could not see me. He sat up, with those tubes in his throat- and waved me away adamantly; my now husband dragged me away, knowing ....That is how I remember it anyway- clear as if it was yesterday. My husband swears I did not see my grandfather in that condition

I could not imagine being 8 years old and in that room day after day

 

[K_Z]

BTW, I am glad, very glad, that the other 3 siblings have been kept out of the media pictures and interviews.

In that respect, Mrs. Winkfield has done a very good job of sheltering her other kids from the media and public attention.

 

[momrids6]

BTW, I am glad, very glad, that the other 3 siblings have been kept out of the media pictures and interviews.

In that respect, Mrs. Winkfield has done a very good job of sheltering her other kids from the media and public attention.

Unfortunately, they are in a few; the 8 yr old parading down the street with her "Let Jahi Live" sign

 

[nightwatch]

Unfortunately, they are in a few; the 8 yr old parading down the street with her "Let Jahi Live" sign

Oh my!

Ciao

 

[momrids6]

There is not a scintilla of evidence suggesting that the diagnosis of death is a mistake or was not made in accord with accepted medical standards.

To the contrary, on December 18, 2013, lawyer Christopher Dolan, writing on behalf of Ms. McMath’s mother, stated that Ms. McMath “has been left brain dead” and requested a “complete explanation as to exactly how Jahi has now come to be brain dead.” Copy attached hereto.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/195182229...-20-2013-Opposition-to-Temp-Restraining-Order


page 5

 

[Day Dreamer]

Like most of the posters here and on news sites, I also would like to know the truth of what has happened from the beginning. It's beyond frustrating trying to figure out truth from fiction in almost every aspect of this case. However, I do have to say that it really, really bothers me that there are millions of hate filled comments floating around the internet regarding this innocent 13 year old girl. Regardless of how this happened and how it has progressed to this point ... none of it was her fault.

I agree that Jahi probably won't be able to recover from this; but, at this point, it is just flat out wrong for the doctors, nurses, attorneys, all the way down to online posters to constantly refer to her as "the body", "the deceased", "the corpse", etc. Whether she really is brain dead or not she is still an innocent 13 year old little girl named JAHI. Is it really too much to ask that everyone continue to refer to her as Jahi instead of the hurtful titles I posted above? We all know the only reason she is being referred to by those titles is to hurt her family. It's extremely shameful that it started with the doctors and staff of CHO. Shameful!!!

I do not intend to insult anyone with this post, nor is it directed at any particular person; but, after following this case for weeks I just really needed to say that. May God Bless this little girl's soul ... wherever that may be. lease:

 

[K_Z]

01.04.14

A Tragedy Compounded: The Heart-Wrenching Case of Jahi McMath May Have Devastating Consequences to Organ Donation

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...vastating-consequences-to-organ-donation.html

The most common factor, as is the case with the McMath family, is refusal to accept the criterion of brain death as finality for their loved one.”

Different studies have tried to ascertain why families would refuse the donation of organs even though the demise of their loved one is both imminent and irreversible. Some families may not consider organ donations for religious reasons while others may have misperceptions as to how the body of their loved ones will be handled. Others still simply lack consensus among family members to make a decision in a timely manner.

 

[Destiny617]

I had another thought (with my inner blue brain, not my outer blue brain, lol!) that if they do indeed remove Jahi's body from CHO, that it may occur late at night, so as to avoid cameras and attention. It would make sense to me to do this at about 0300, when the rest of the PICU is relatively quiet, visitors are away, etc.

I was a bit disturbed that the actual doorway and street entrance to be used was named in the court documents. Good grief-- what kind of security plan is THAT??

"Dover Street entrance"-- does anyone know if that is a "main" door, or a restricted area? Is it only accessible to ambulances? (I hope it is a restricted area.)

I know for certain that Dover St is NOT the main entrance. I have been to CHO before when a friend's child was life flighted from Reno in the middle of the night. Luckily I live near by so my friend didn't have to be alone with her child.

 

[Donjeta]

It is our duty as providers to ensure that the messages being portrayed to the public about Jahi's case are abundantly clear. We should be talking about "ventilator" withdrawal, rather than "life support" withdrawal. The concept of finding a surgeon to place a tracheostomy and feeding tube in order to facilitate the transfer of her body to another facility, as has been suggested, should not even be entertained. We do the general public (our patients) a disservice by perpetuating misconceptions about the finality of brain death.
Robert Veatch recently argued that as long as the patient isn't suffering the family should be allowed to decide on their own terms when Jahi is deceased. It is true that Jahi is not suffering, but I would argue that continuing ventilatory support is prolonging the suffering of the McMath family, contributing to the general public’s confusion surrounding brain death, and significantly contributing to the moral distress of Jahi's providers. As Sam Singer, a spokesman for Oakland Children's Hospital, has eloquently stated: “This is one of the most tragic situations imaginable. A family has lost their young daughter. But unfortunately, Jahi is deceased. No amount of hope, prayer, or medical procedures will bring her back." There is, sadly, no uncertain fate here.

http://www.thehastingscenter.org/Bioethicsforum/Post.aspx?id=6679&blogid=140

 

[gitana1]

I am curious if there is to be any supervision of the household, if Mrs. Winkfield brings Jahi home for care. There are 3 additional children whose well-being is of concern in this highly charged atmosphere.

I hope that there is a provision by the Judge that if Jahi's body is brought to the Winkfield home for ongoing maintenance and care, that there is at least weekly contact with CPS, for a period of time, for the benefit of the other children, and how they are coping, and being cared for in the situation. They are really in a pressure cooker, with all of the attention in this case. JMO.

Oh goodness. Grief does not justify CPS getting involved. Come on over to Orangewood down here and take a look at the kids removed from homes where CPS involvement was really warranted.

Those kids are going through what any family does when a lôved on becomes terminally ill. There is zero evidence they are being abused or neglected or that the government should be involved. Tragedy is tragedy, folks. It happens. Let's try to keep our heads.

 

[Donjeta]

There are some commenters on Twitter who say Jahi is alive because hospitals don't keep dead people on ventilators.
Good grief, this whole case is about the hospital trying not to.

 

[Donjeta]

http://www.kitv.com/news/hawaii/law...4/23748584/-/l9wlh3z/-/index.html?source=KITV

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...-3-year-old-girl-brain-dead-article-1.1565600

http://www.khon2.com/news/hope-fades-for-3-year-old-girl-in-coma

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/01/03/justice/hawaii-brain-damage-girl/

Another case of a family and an operation gone bad.

Some articles are saying that she is brain dead, some that she is in a coma with severe permanent brain damage.

The only quote from a doctor that I could see is,

Finley's pediatric neurologist, Dr. Gregory Yen, said the girl has been in a "persistent vegetative state" since she was brought to him a month ago.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/01/03/justice/hawaii-brain-damage-girl/


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...d-following-trip-dentist-given-sedatives.html
'Finley has opened and closed her eyes with no response a couple times and is able to breathe on her own,' friends posted on the Facebook group.

 

[Softail]

Agreement reached on how to move Jahi from hospital

According to Christopher Dolan, the family attorney for Jahi McMath, the process to move Jahi will involve several steps. He said there must be communication between Children’s Hospital and the receiving facility, the family must give the receiving facility paperwork of Jahi’s health care status and she must be transported in an ambulance that can switch her to a portable ventilator.

Dolan also said Alameda County Coroner’s Office will be involved

“The hospital will give Jahi to the coroner,” Dolan said. "The coroner will then, if we fill out certain paperwork, give Jahi to us. Then we are free to transport Jahi.”

http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/local/agreement-reached-how-move-jahi-hospital/nccK5/

This is crazy! :crazy:

 

[otto]

There is not a scintilla of evidence suggesting that the diagnosis of death is a mistake or was not made in accord with accepted medical standards.

To the contrary, on December 18, 2013, lawyer Christopher Dolan, writing on behalf of Ms. McMath’s mother, stated that Ms. McMath “has been left brain dead” and requested a “complete explanation as to exactly how Jahi has now come to be brain dead.” Copy attached hereto.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/195182229...-20-2013-Opposition-to-Temp-Restraining-Order


page 5

That should be easy to answer. Death is a known risk for the surgery that this child elected to undergo. This child had post-operative bleeding, a known cause of death.

"More than 530,000 procedures are performed annually in children younger than 15 years in the United States. The current tonsillectomy "rate" is 0.53 per thousand children and 1.46 per thousand children for combined tonsillectomy and adenoidectomy."

"The morbidity rate associated with tonsillectomy is 2% to 4% due to post-operative bleeding; the mortality rate is 1 in 15,000, due to bleeding, airway obstruction, or anesthesia complications."

Tonsillectomy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[SilkySifaka]

01.04.14



http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...vastating-consequences-to-organ-donation.html

I think many people can't understand how the grief process and denial can totally overtake a person dealing with a loved ones death.

I have had trouble when a cat died accepting it, putting it in the freezer (because i had to keep it til someone could dig the grave) and taking him out to cuddle. Yes I knew he was dead but I couldn't handle it. I did see a grief counsellor and of course he was properly buried within a day or so. However it still stuns me how I couldn't accept it in this case when it was clear he had died. I was doing things you would only do with a dead body (keeping him for burial in a place no one could live...and b4 anyone is to horrified, that's where the vets keep them, in the freezer. They just call it something different)

I told my specialty surgeon vet this story when we were deciding whether to euthanize another cat, luckily she ended up surviving with minimal intervention and lots of pain management and is now a gymnast, and he said he had a client who slept with his dead dog in the garage for THREE MONTHS.

I can only assume that Jahi's mom has a denial of the sort i just mentioned. IMO she is to be empathized with and hopefully offered some grief counseling that might help her to come to terms with Jahi's death. I refuse to call her that abominable "the body" or the "corpse" that doctors are doing.

She is Jahi and her mom is having a situational mental illness that probably will disappear once she works through her grief but she isn't getting the opportunity to do so. CHO has made this a totally adversarial process when it is their job to take the high road and help the family deal. It is not the mentally ill persons job. I am glad there are settlement talks. That might help.

 

[otto]

Agreement reached on how to move Jahi from hospital

According to Christopher Dolan, the family attorney for Jahi McMath, the process to move Jahi will involve several steps. He said there must be communication between Children’s Hospital and the receiving facility, the family must give the receiving facility paperwork of Jahi’s health care status and she must be transported in an ambulance that can switch her to a portable ventilator.

Dolan also said Alameda County Coroner’s Office will be involved

“The hospital will give Jahi to the coroner,” Dolan said. "The coroner will then, if we fill out certain paperwork, give Jahi to us. Then we are free to transport Jahi.”

http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/local/agreement-reached-how-move-jahi-hospital/nccK5/

This is crazy! :crazy:

That's interesting and ambiguous wording. The coroner will give the body to the family if certain paperwork is filled out? What if different paperwork is filled out?

 

[momrids6]

Agreement reached on how to move Jahi from hospital

According to Christopher Dolan, the family attorney for Jahi McMath, the process to move Jahi will involve several steps. He said there must be communication between Children’s Hospital and the receiving facility, the family must give the receiving facility paperwork of Jahi’s health care status and she must be transported in an ambulance that can switch her to a portable ventilator.

Dolan also said Alameda County Coroner’s Office will be involved

“The hospital will give Jahi to the coroner,” Dolan said. "The coroner will then, if we fill out certain paperwork, give Jahi to us. Then we are free to transport Jahi.”

http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/local/agreement-reached-how-move-jahi-hospital/nccK5/

This is crazy! :crazy:

How is this supposed to work- I doubt the coroner is going to put a portable vent in/be the transport guy, etc etc...

and, how many transfers does he think that tube placement will take at this point. And, there is no facility...

 

[SilkySifaka]

http://www.thehastingscenter.org/Bioethicsforum/Post.aspx?id=6679&blogid=140

Thanks donjeta. I do have a problem with one small part of what he says. Worrying about the moral distress that "the family" is putting on the providers. They are the doctors and have the moral duty to care for the patients family as well as the patient. Given Jahi cannot be helped, the family is still part of the group being cared for or should be. As i said in another post, it is not the mentally ill's job to worry about the doctors, it is the doctors to worry about the mentally ill. This is a tragedy all the way around but I assume the hospital is providing counseling to the doctors involved...and i would hope they are providing through another hospital to the family, as I doubt they would trust CHO's docs. But they should have made an arrangement to offer help with another institution.

JMO dont attack me

 

[rosesfromangels]

In my opinion, this situation has been treated with gross insensitivity on the part of the hospital. The family is in shock and needs LOVE and prayers. Had they been treated gently and given time vs. pressure, they could make good decisions.
Everyone needs to back off and direct prayers towards them.

God's love and wisdom surround them!

As always, my opinion only.