Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #8

[jjenny]

I think you should focus efforts to correct that problem.
Surely, you can see how wasteful and expensive that is. I would suggest calling your insurance carrier and report the doctor..tell them of your plan to go to the ER.

A sore throat is not an emergency.



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Report the doctor because they are busy and don't have appointments until March? Is there a law on how quickly the doctor is supposed to have appointments? Some specialists you have to wait even longer than that. Is that against the law?

 

[Linda7NJ]

Report the doctor because they are busy and don't have appointments until March? Is there a law on how quickly the doctor is supposed to have appointments? Some specialists you have to wait even longer than that. Is that against the law?

What good is a doctor you have to wait two months to see because he's soooo busy?

I had the same issue you described, I did what I suggested you do. Calls musta been made because the doctors office called me to set up something the next day.

If that something you're not comfortable doing, I suggest a minute clinic like this one. http://m.minuteclinic.com/mt/www.minuteclinic.com/services/




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[jjenny]

What good is a doctor you have to wait two months to see because he's soooo busy?

I had the same issue you described, I did what I suggested you do. Calls musta been made because the doctors office called me to set up something the next day.

If that something you're not comfortable doing, I suggest a minute clinic like this one. http://m.minuteclinic.com/mt/www.minuteclinic.com/services/




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Well I agree with you. Which is why I haven't signed up yet. I am going to keep looking but no luck so far.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Well I agree with you. Which is why I haven't signed up yet. I am going to keep looking but no luck so far.

Well good luck because I have not been thrilled with the last two I've tried.
I so miss my old friend/doctor....he grew so disgusted at having insurance companies try to dictate how he practice medicine (cheaply And at the expense of his patients.)
He used to hang up the warning letters" he received from them...around the waiting room. Quite interesting reading!
He quit. He now owns and operates a private charter plane back and forth to the islands from Florida.


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[MLO]

"Should" is one thing. Who *will* pay? That's reality here and now. Think about how much and how hard people fight to get insurance companies to cover treatments for things like organ transplants, experimental treatments for live otherwise functioning people who are trying to stay alive because they have an illness?

Now factor in when someone has ceased to live by everything that can be measured. They cannot breathe at all -- a machine has to do the work for them. They have no brain function that can be measured in any way, by any test known to medicine and they've been in this state for a long enough time to be thoroughly tested by several doctors. If a machine wasn't pushing O2 in their body their heart would stop completely.

Who's going to pay for the ongoing care of this person? Would each of you be willing to foot the cost of this? Would this person who is otherwise considered 'dead' by all known medical standards be a higher priority for ongoing medical insurance funding than someone who is still alive and fighting a disease?

These are big issues and they are real. It's one thing to opine on the meaning of life, the end of life, and what science may or may not be able to do eventually. What about here and now? Would you pay for someone else? Can you pay for it? And if the insurance company says "No way will we pay to keep a deceased person in the hospital on equipment" what do you expect to happen?

And these people, who support Jahi's family, do they protest every time some one has cancer but can't afford treatment? Do they fund raise so that people with living, breathing children can get that child prompt medical care? Or do they only wish to raise the dead?

 

[CHERIE.T]

"Should" is one thing. Who *will* pay? That's reality here and now. Think about how much and how hard people fight to get insurance companies to cover treatments for things like organ transplants, experimental treatments for live otherwise functioning people who are trying to stay alive because they have an illness?

Now factor in when someone has ceased to live by everything that can be measured. They cannot breathe at all -- a machine has to do the work for them. They have no brain function that can be measured in any way, by any test known to medicine and they've been in this state for a long enough time to be thoroughly tested by several doctors. If a machine wasn't pushing O2 in their body their heart would stop completely.

Who's going to pay for the ongoing care of this person? Would each of you be willing to foot the cost of this? Would this person who is otherwise considered 'dead' by all known medical standards be a higher priority for ongoing medical insurance funding than someone who is still alive and fighting a disease?

These are big issues and they are real. It's one thing to opine on the meaning of life, the end of life, and what science may or may not be able to do eventually. What about here and now? Would you pay for someone else? Can you pay for it? And if the insurance company says "No way will we pay to keep a deceased person in the hospital on equipment" what do you expect to happen?

Isn't that decided when someone is declared brain dead ? Insurance is stopped when death is declared.

 

[CHERIE.T]

And these people, who support Jahi's family, do they protest every time some one has cancer but can't afford treatment? Do they fund raise so that people with living, breathing children can get that child prompt medical care? Or do they only wish to raise the dead?

Only when they want to raise the dead. Smh

 

[CHERIE.T]

Does anyone here really believe Jahi is going is come back to life? I'm just curious.

I understand the questions being asked and the different viewpoints, but I'm talking specifically about Jahi, not some other case that seems similar, but really isn't the same.

No, she will not come back to life.
I can't understand why ....50 or so days after being declared brain dead.....her mom is still not accepting reality.
:moo:

 

[Linda7NJ]

No, she will not come back to life.

I can't understand why ....50 or so days after being declared brain dead.....her mom is still not accepting reality.

:moo:

It's a pretty horrible reality. I would think she can not consciously emotionally wrap her head around reality.


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[Donjeta]

I think this case became symbolic of something, hard to define what exactly but Jahi's resurrection represents a victory of the underdogs, not giving up, fighting against all odds, the family of a mistreated little girl vanquishing over the evil people who killed her, the poor teenager who was negligently hurt by a big bad money grubbing hospital fighting her way through it, a girl recovering miraculously because God is on "our" side, the faith and love of a family and clinging to a belief in life set up against coldhearted science that does a few tests and says she's dead. The fight represents a fight for everyone who ever felt mistreated by a hospital and distrustful of their doctors and what the science is saying. It represents the little people being right and the powerful scientists being wrong.

An ordinary cancer patient fighting his disease in the ordinary way doesn't have the same kind of a human interest generating conflict when it's the nature and his own body that he must conquer and not an ominous conspiracy of evil doctors who intone darkly, "you're dead, dead, dead..."

As for the video, I think that's probably the sort of thing that Jahi's principal saw to convince her that Jahi is not dead.

I can understand a mother's unwillingness to accept the diagnosis of brain death but I'm sure that someone must have explained about spinal reflexes to her by now. The attending doctors at CHO would have attempted to explain brain death and reasoned with the family for a while before it got into a full blown conflict with the hospital admin and attorneys, and probably even afterwards if the family was still open for discussions. Grandma works in a hospital, she must know about reflexes and if she doesn't, she knows a lot of people who do. Uncle Omari is computer literate, he must have googled this many times over. Dolan must have researched this stuff or had someone in his office research it for him in preparing for the numerous petitions. Doctors Byrne and Frankenstein must have studied reflexes if they are competent to practice medicine. The faithful have googled brain death over and over again to find so many cases of brain dead people recovering with the help of fish oil, prayer, wonder drugs and miracle gadgets that they can't have avoided stumbling onto a few factual articles on the way.

So, I'm a little cynical that the video might knowingly represent a known spinal reflex because it wows people who don't know better.


I am not worried about the costs of Jahi's treatment. If it's funded by charitable donations those people can decide for themselves where they want to put their dollars. If they want to waste it or do not consider the futile treatment of a deceased person to be a waste, ok, fine with me.

But generally money is always a factor in the ethics of medical decision making when it comes to the things that are paid by the insurance or the hospitals or the government or the people themselves imo. Because people don't have indefinite amounts of money and anything that introduces more costs in the system may mean that someone has to go without something else they need because they can't afford to pay. So it comes down to prioritizing and making choices as to how to allocate the finite resources.

 

[CHERIE.T]

It's a pretty horrible reality. I would think she can not consciously emotionally wrap her head around reality.


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Yes it's a horrible reality...one that was told to the mom 54 ? days ago. A reality that was confirmed by some 6 doctors iirc.


Purely rhetorical how many days does this woman need before accepting her daughter isn't coming back?
Surely there is some type of physical change that points to non recovery.

:moo:

 

[Donjeta]

After investing so much mental energy in the fight to keep Jahi on life support and getting a facility for her, after vowing that she'd keep on fighting for Jahi until her heart stops in such a public manner, after painting the people who said that Jahi is dead and that she should be disconnected from the ventilator with such a dirty paintbrush and framing them as murderers out to get her, after publicly committing to the belief that God will heal her if everybody just prays hard enough, after the triumphant celebrations of victory when Jahi was transferred to a facility where they finally can feed her and make her well again, after all the virtual nose-thumbing directed at CHO and the medical establishment, after involving Byrne and the Schiavo foundation and other characters who have made their point and said that unhooking Jahi from the equipment would be murdering a living person...

I think that even if there are plenty of signs of deterioration that they can't really avoid seeing, at this point they have painted themselves into a corner where it would be extremely difficult for the family to step back and admit out loud that they were wrong, the fight was all for nothing, that she's not coming back, that all the evil people at CHO were right all along and all that prayer wasn't enough as God didn't come through and grant them the miracle. The victory would turn into a loss. It might feel like betraying Jahi, betraying the faith in prayers, losing face. It's got to feel nearly impossible to get up and say that it's time to disconnect if you're on the record telling the world over and over again that it's akin to murder to do so.

 

[CHERIE.T]

Thank you for a thought provoking explanation.

 

[Wolf Dreamer]

I wonder, if mom was not surrounded by people with their own agendas, would she have come to terms with it before now?

I'm sure people will disagree but I have thought for sometime that (bearing in mind the medical situation, and that there are other children involved) mom's mental fitness is in question. I'm not in favour of locking people up for no reason, but I am starting to think that if she were committed for a period of time, kept away from the likes of CD and given time with a qualified counsellor who could talk her through it, it would be much better for her than current circumstances....

 

[Donjeta]

Interesting case from Kansas:
http://www.thaddeuspope.com/images/Brett_Shively_brief.pdf



Courts have held that, while it is for the law - rather than medicine - to define the
"standard" of death ( i.e., what constitutes death), it is for the medical profession to
determine the applicable criteria and accepted medical standards for deciding when a
particular patient has actually died.

Although the legal standard as to what constitutes death is determined by
the courts or legislation, it is the role of the medical profession to decide
whether brain death or other cessation of cardiopulmonary function is
present in accordance with current medical standards; judicial
intervention should be limited to a review of the procedures followed
and a determination that the findings are consistent with the
established medical criteria. Thus, a regulation which allows
physicians, rather than family members, to determine when death has
occurred does not violate due process.

22A Am.Jur.2d Death § 424 (emphasis added); see also, Petition of Jones, 433 N.Y.S.2d
984, 986 (N.Y.Sup.Ct.1980) ("Basically, when a patient is dead is a medical matter
which should be left to the expertise of the medical profession. Judicial intervention
should be limited to review of the procedures followed and a determination that the
findings are consistent with the established medical criteria"); In re Welfare of Bowman,
617 P.2d 731,734 & 738 (Wash.1980) (Ruling that "the law has adopted standards of
death but has turned to physicians for the criteria by which a particular standard is met"
and, "We do not address what are acceptable diagnostic tests and medical procedures for
determining when brain death has occurred. It is left to the medical profession to define
the acceptable practices, taking into account new knowledge of brain function and new
diagnostic procedures"); Glazier, 9-SUM Kan.J.L. & Pub.Pol'y at 641-42 ("Defining
15I

death is, by all accounts, multi-disciplinary... Diagnosing death is, in the United States,
within the purview of the medical profession."). As one court has put it:
Although the courts have refused to establish specific criteria for a
diagnosis of brain death due to the changing nature of new technologies
which could render any such criteria outdated, they have required that a
diagnosis of brain death be made in accordance with the "usual and
customary standards of medical practice."... How can a lay person,
whether judge or juror, be expected to reach a cogent and reliable
conclusion from technically complex symptoms such as these without the
assistance of an expert's knowledge of the brain's function and pathology?
Clearly, more than common knowledge and experience is necessary to
form a correct judgment on the question of brain death.
Estate of Sewart, 602 N.E.2d 1277, 1286-87 (Ill.App.1991) (emphasis added) (holding
that expert medical opinion is necessary to a determination of brain death).

 

[Wolfie]

Well I just tried to sign up for a doctor as a new patient and the appointment would be in March.
If I had a sore throat, do you think it would last until then?

Are there any urgent care clinics in your area? I tend to use one when I have situations where I need to get care now- sinus infection, possible strep, migraine gone wild... And I can't wait a few days for an appt. Luckily there is one connected to my dr's office, so they can see the appts and what happened.

 

[Sincerely]

I disagree...this family has felt entitled from the beginning. They believe they should be treated better and different and have their own rules...as evidenced by the many examples given throughout this forum. I don't believe it has anything to do with not accepting reality or hanging on to her daughter...that stuff is tough...but people do it daily...this family has some major entitlement issues.

 

[shimz]

After investing so much mental energy in the fight to keep Jahi on life support and getting a facility for her, after vowing that she'd keep on fighting for Jahi until her heart stops in such a public manner, after painting the people who said that Jahi is dead and that she should be disconnected from the ventilator with such a dirty paintbrush and framing them as murderers out to get her, after publicly committing to the belief that God will heal her if everybody just prays hard enough, after the triumphant celebrations of victory when Jahi was transferred to a facility where they finally can feed her and make her well again, after all the virtual nose-thumbing directed at CHO and the medical establishment, after involving Byrne and the Schiavo foundation and other characters who have made their point and said that unhooking Jahi from the equipment would be murdering a living person...

I think that even if there are plenty of signs of deterioration that they can't really avoid seeing, at this point they have painted themselves into a corner where it would be extremely difficult for the family to step back and admit out loud that they were wrong, the fight was all for nothing, that she's not coming back, that all the evil people at CHO were right all along and all that prayer wasn't enough as God didn't come through and grant them the miracle. The victory would turn into a loss. It might feel like betraying Jahi, betraying the faith in prayers, losing face. It's got to feel nearly impossible to get up and say that it's time to disconnect if you're on the record telling the world over and over again that it's akin to murder to do so.

Great post! I think though, that they would never admit they were wrong or that CHO and the doctors were right. I think they would say that it was the time spent at CHO before she was moved that killed her. That she wasn't treated as f she were alive, and wasn't given sufficient care, and this is the reason she can not recover.

I don't think for one second they will ever admit that Jahi died on the date that is on her death certificate.

 

[Frigga]

I am of the opinion that there will come a time (how long, I don't know) when it will be evident for the mother and all of the individuals involved with caring for Jahi to accept that she is not coming back to life. God help her mother when that time comes.

I personally think this can go on for a long time. I am amazed it has gone on this long, for sure, but a point in time will come, it has to- right?

After watching the news interview with the mother I am convinced that the denial and delusion came about all on her own. Even though I think Dolan has ulterior motives, I don't believe for one moment that he is behind what is driving Jahi's mother. I will continue to pray for her and watch to see where this leads legally and legislatively.
Interesting but very, very sad.

This mother believes ultimately that she killed her daughter. That is what I believe this is all about. I don't know weather she can live with that misguided belief. I hope we don't end up with two deaths on our hands eventually.

 

[ca2james]

I think this case became symbolic of something, hard to define what exactly but Jahi's resurrection represents a victory of the underdogs, not giving up, fighting against all odds, the family of a mistreated little girl vanquishing over the evil people who killed her, the poor teenager who was negligently hurt by a big bad money grubbing hospital fighting her way through it, a girl recovering miraculously because God is on "our" side, the faith and love of a family and clinging to a belief in life set up against coldhearted science that does a few tests and says she's dead. The fight represents a fight for everyone who ever felt mistreated by a hospital and distrustful of their doctors and what the science is saying. It represents the little people being right and the powerful scientists being wrong.

Reading this, it's clear to me that Dolan and the family have attempted to structure their narrative to mimic just about every feel-good, stick-it-to-the-man movie released by Hollywood. IMO, people want to believe in and stick up for the little guy, which I think might be one reason why some are still supporting the family in the face of evidence showing that the family's story has so many holes in it.

Sadly, these movies and narratives don't always mention the fact that in real life, sometimes no amount of praying, fighting, or begging will give the triumphant end result they're seeking.

I am not worried about the costs of Jahi's treatment. If it's funded by charitable donations those people can decide for themselves where they want to put their dollars. If they want to waste it or do not consider the futile treatment of a deceased person to be a waste, ok, fine with me.

But generally money is always a factor in the ethics of medical decision making when it comes to the things that are paid by the insurance or the hospitals or the government or the people themselves imo. Because people don't have indefinite amounts of money and anything that introduces more costs in the system may mean that someone has to go without something else they need because they can't afford to pay. So it comes down to prioritizing and making choices as to how to allocate the finite resources.

Exactly. In an ideal world, financial considerations would never be a part of health care but we live in a world of finite resources. In Jahi's case, there's a choice to be made by insurance companies whether to pay to allocate resources to her - someone who is brain dead and whose body can only function with mechanical assistance - or to someone who is still alive. It makes sense to me that they would not fund her or anyone else in ths situation because there's no chance of long-term benefit to her since her condition will never improve. Perhaps they'd pay for a short time if the dead person was donating organs because there would be a clear benefit to keeping that person's body functioning.

I know that this is a rather cold way of looking at the situation .... To me, insurance math and cost-benefit math are cold like that because IMO math is about logic, not feelings.