FL - 17-yo Boy Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #2

[tlcya]

Thanks, someone needed to try and explain that. Just because a person claims that a shooting is in self defense does not make it a fact, not even in Florida. In many and I hope MOST jurisdictions things would have gone very very differently and nobody would be even discussing "Stand your ground"

In normal circumstances when the police roll up on a scene where one person is dead, and the other admits to being the shooter several things happen that simply did not happen here. The police take pictures and document any injuries that the shooter has, they take a statement, they interview neighbors, they collect evidence, the cell phone, they find out about the 911 calls. They have drug and alcohol tests done on both the shooter and the deceased. They look at the totality of the circumstances and turn all the actual evidence they have over to the Prosecutors office.

What they don't do is hear the shooter say it was self defense, and shrug and say OK and send him on his way. They don't NOT ask questions, document evidence, they don't simply NOT bother to try and discover if this was truly self defense....and in this case that will bite them on the butt hard, because there is ample if not an over abundance of actual evidence that shows that this was anything BUT self defense....stand your ground is NOT going to be Zimmermans get out of jail free card because the evidence show quite plainly that he was NOT defending himself.

Just because he says it does not make it so.

BBM Agreed. It does not. But the fact that LE never even bothered to take GZ to the station, question him more closely to try to determine if he was telling the truth with his cockamamie self defense story, indicates that LE is interpreting the law incorrectly and applying it to GZ. That makes the stand your ground law have everything to do with this case IMO. Not because it actually applies, but because it has already been applied in error.

 

[Talina]

Did you read the actual law? It has everything to do with this case, that's why it keeps coming up.

Just bouncing off your post and not necessarily asking this particular question of you.

I've been wondering how this even came up to begin with regarding the stand your ground law being applicable in this situation.

It would seem to me that it would be a defendant that would claim protection under this law after having been charged and arrested.

How is it that GZ is not even arrested, but instead is interviewed and let go. He's let go with no threat of a future arrest. No "pending further investigation" release, etc. Just straight up LE says based on this law, they can not arrest him. Is that really the role that LE is supposed to be fulfilling?

I wouldn't think that is a decision to be made by LE at all. I would think that would be a decision for prosecutors to make and clearly they are now with paneling a grand jury but why was LE so quick out of the shoot to say nothing to see here folks, move along.

GZ would have had to known that he had this option before him to get him out of this predicament. But how is it that he knew to reference that "stand your ground" law as his defense off the cuff that night when this all went down? Based on what I'm hearing and reading about the LE in that area of Florida, particularly the detective on the scene and his history, I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that the LE coached him on what to say and that they'd then say nothing they could do since he claimed self defense.

I'm normally not this negative about police and detectives but something about this whole case stinks to high heaven.

IMO

 

[daisy7]

It won't be a jury. Because of "stand your ground" law this will go to a judge.

There is nothing in the FL statutes that states any "Stand your Ground" case will go before a judge. And, there is nothing that states that people who use this excuse cannot be arrested.

Recently, a man was found guilty of manslaughter and murder by a jury, even though he used the "Stand Your Ground" defense.

TAMPA — He had killed a man over a car, but for six years towing company owner Donald Montanez walked free on bail.

He continued to tow while the victim's family waited on a trial and a verdict.

It came Thursday. After nearly 12 hours of deliberation, six jurors found Montanez guilty of manslaughter and third-degree felony murder because he was committing grand theft auto when he fatally shot Glen Rich.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts...y-of-manslaughter-third-degree-murder/1217945

 

[jjenny]

So Zimmerman claims he wasn't sure what street he was on and that is the reason he got out of his car? Am I understanding this correctly? The man who spent hours and hours of his time, proudly patrolling this neighborhood, captain of the watch. The man who spent enough time doing so to have phoned police approximately 50 times regarding suspcious activity in said neighborhood in 2011, the man who made other neighbors uncomfortable because he was so up in their business, THAT MAN WAS UNSURE WHAT STREET HE WAS ON?!?

I gotta cry foul. That is the most ridiculous excuse I have ever heard. Does not pass the straight face test. Not even a little. He has spent weeks hiding from the public and THIS is the excuse he managed to come up with in all that time? :burn:

I think we need to get a hold of a police report to know what exactly Zimmerman is claiming. I am not sure where the idea that he was looking for street name is coming from.

 

[Sensei]

Yes, I know you posted it. I read it when you did.

I am saying I don't see how that can be right that this law regarding self defense is tried before a judge and not a jury. I don't see how that is constitutional.

A Judge get to decide if the Stand your Ground defense even applies to the case, if he decides that it does he can simply dismiss all charges before the case goes to trial....but that is not an automatic stamp, he gets to decide if stand your ground applies and if it does not then the charge is whatever it is, and that is decided by a Jury

 

[tlcya]

“I can say very confidently we would welcome any outside entity that wants to come look at what we did,” Lee said last week. “They are welcome to come here and look at it. We have not done anything but conduct a fair and complete investigation.”

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/...with-trayvon.html#storylink=cpy#storylink=cpy

I am usually a staunch and fierce defender and fan of Law Enforcement. I cannot say that I find the chief's assurances at all comforting.

A full investigation would involve actually asking the shooter some tough questions, gathering evidence, interviewing witnesses and neighbors, none of which apparently happened here. oh and not "correcting" witness testimony in official police reports, which reportedly DID happen.

Again, huge supporter of LE in general, not of this department though. I really think they flubbed this thing, badly.

 

[HiHater]

BBM Agreed. It does not. But the fact that LE never even bothered to take GZ to the station, question him more closely to try to determine if he was telling the truth with his cockamamie self defense story, indicates that LE is interpreting the law incorrectly and applying it to GZ. That makes the stand your ground law have everything to do with this case IMO. Not because it actually applies, but because it has already been applied in error.

Very well said tlcox. This is happening backwards. Police don't usually get involved in legal theory, they collect evidence for an investigation. I'm not sure that their investigation should have been tailored toward proving or disproving anything. They are the primary fact-finders, so to speak.

In this case, they definitely got tunnel vision and ruled out other possibilities prematurely. Just because you have a murderer and a victim doesn't make it a police job to prove motive. JMO

 

[Isabelle]

The stand your ground law needs to be abolished. It seems to give many a license to kill when they are moved to do so. If everyone carried a gun and were all on the same page, this law would be fair. At this point this is a very dangerous law for innocent victims living amongst those who kill for a thrill!

 

[Anadarko]

Did you read the actual law? It has everything to do with this case, that's why it keeps coming up.

I don't need to read the entire law, as this was not a case of self defense. GZ CLAIMING this was self-defense, and the SPD believing his CLAIM, doesn't make it TRUE.

 

[jjenny]

There is nothing in the FL statutes that states any "Stand your Ground" case will go before a judge. And, there is nothing that states that people who use this excuse cannot be arrested.

Recently, a man was found guilty of manslaughter and murder by a jury, even though he used the "Stand Your Ground" defense.



http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts...y-of-manslaughter-third-degree-murder/1217945

I already posted the link but here it is again. Florida's supreme court decided these cases must go before a judge before they can even be tried.

"The "Stand Your Ground" law also expanded protection to people who fear for their lives when approached in their vehicle or a boat or walking down the street. The Florida Supreme Court has since decided that judges need to evaluate a defendant's claim for protection under "Stand Your Ground" before trial."


http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/20...arges-michael-monahan-controversial-state-law

 

[Talina]

I am not sure either-but I am not a lawyer. Maybe the judge first has to decide whether it can even go to the jury if he is arrested? All I know is that experts think this law makes it hard for Zimmerman to even be prosecuted, let alone successfully. Because of this law, state would have to prove beyond reasonable doubt Zimmerman didn't act in self defense-so much for "self-defense" being an affirmative defense.


"McClatchy Newspapers reports that "legal experts say Zimmerman, if arrested, would probably be charged with manslaughter and not murder -- and would have a strong defense under Florida's law, with a judge needing to decide first whether he is immune from prosecution." As Mother Jones points out, Florida courts have found that under that statute, "defendant's only burden is to offer facts from which his resort to force could have been reasonable" while "the State has the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did not act in self-defense.""


http://mediamatters.org/blog/201203200009

I think there is a strong argument, though, that could be made by a good prosecutor that the stand your ground law does not apply since he was the aggressor and pursued the victim. Seems to me that would be the first argument that the judge would have to rule on and then based on that ruling, they go from there. Needless to say, it will be very interesting to see how this all unfolds with whether or not that law applies to this incident.

I honestly do not see how it could.

IMO

ETA: I just read that article again that explains the process and it is not that the accused is tried by the judge. The ruling by the state supreme court is that if a person accused of crime using deadly force is going to use that law as a defense, that a judge must first rule on that defense first before the person can be taken to trial. If the judge does feel the circumstances are protected under that law, then the person doesn't go to trial and charges are dropped. Other wise, off the trial they go. So, first a judge has to rule whether or not Zimmerman's actions are protected under the stand your ground law. If not or perhaps if there is any question at all, off to trial he goes and let a jury sort it out.

Based on all the cases I've been able to find that were determined to have been protected under this law were in no way similar at all to this particular shooting.

 

[LolaMoon08]

I've been watching Trayvon's petition for an hour and it's averaging almost 158 signatures a minute. 9,472 signatures in an hour! I also think they're having a little technical difficulty because over 600 signatures in one minute at one point and the site is moving slow?

So glad so many people are getting involved!

 

[Sensei]

BBM Agreed. It does not. But the fact that LE never even bothered to take GZ to the station, question him more closely to try to determine if he was telling the truth with his cockamamie self defense story, indicates that LE is interpreting the law incorrectly and applying it to GZ. That makes the stand your ground law have everything to do with this case IMO. Not because it actually applies, but because it has already been applied in error.

And on that we totally agree.

In this case however it appears that the problem in Sanford Florida is with the police department or portions thereof, and not the law per se.

 

[annalia]

“I can say very confidently we would welcome any outside entity that wants to come look at what we did,” Lee said last week. “They are welcome to come here and look at it. We have not done anything but conduct a fair and complete investigation.”

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/...with-trayvon.html#storylink=cpy#storylink=cpy

I am usually a staunch and fierce defender and fan of Law Enforcement. I cannot say that I find the chief's assurances at all comforting.

A full investigation would involve actually asking the shooter some tough questions, gathering evidence, interviewing witnesses and neighbors, none of which apparently happened here. oh and not "correcting" witness testimony in official police reports, which reportedly DID happen.

Again, huge supporter of LE in general, not of this department though. I really think they flubbed this thing, badly.

Isn't that the same chief who already said that Tray didn't have a right to jump GZ simply because he was asked if he lives there? Seems the chief was judge and jury in a matter of minutes, no actual investigation was necessary.

How can it can be that now it's being said that GZ was jumped from behind while he was simply walking back to his car after looking for the street address, when Lee said that GZ asked Trayzon if he lived there????

 

[tlcya]

They are up to 500,000 signatures thus far. This has really gotten the attention of people all across the country. I am glad, this story should be on the national radar and justice will only happen if it stays there IMO.

 

[annalia]

Another thing that is concerning is that GZ has had quite a while now to try to perfect his story.

 

[LolaMoon08]

They are up to 500,000 signatures thus far. This has really gotten the attention of people all across the country. I am glad, this story should be on the national radar and justice will only happen if it stays there IMO.

They are at 622,127 signatures as of 3 minutes ago.

2,572 signatures in the last ten minutes!! Woooo Hooooo! That's an average of 250 signatures a minute.

 

[Talina]

They are at 622,127 signatures as of 3 minutes ago.

2,572 signatures in the last ten minutes!! Woooo Hooooo! That's an average of 250 signatures a minute.

Wow. I signed it yesterday and there was slightly over 300,000.

 

[Talina]

Watching HLN right now and saw a tape clip of the police news conference with the LE (I think it was Lee) saying that Mr Zimmerman has made a claim of self defense.

Well, IMO, Chief Lee has self appointed himself into the role of the judge in ruling that the stand your ground law applies here. I don't think that falls under his job description. I believe the state supreme court said a judge is to make that ruling, not a police department.

IMO

 

[LolaMoon08]

Wow. I signed it yesterday and there was slightly over 300,000.

I'm writing down the number of signatures every ten minutes to get a feel for how many people are signing and how long it will take to get to a million? It's been only four minutes or so and there's already 1,000 more signatures. :woohoo:

ETA: In this past ten minutes 2,693 more signatures were added to Trayvon's petition. That's almost 270 signatures a minute!