FL - Family Tries To Get Marriage License For Pregnant 13yo To Marry 27yo

[SunnieRN]

There should be punishment for the parents as well as the 27 year old. Not sure what they were thinking, but they did not have the interests of their daughter at heart.

 

[porkchop]

Coming from someone who is married into a hispanic family and living in an area with a large Mexican population...this IS NOT a cultural thing.....could be a way to get a green card; however, it is not typical for the culture to allow their thirteen year olds to get knocked up by much older men. Most of the Mexican families I know all involve the husband and wife being close in age, not the husband being much older...except for my husband and I; he is quite a bit older than me, but he is NOT Mexican, he is half Spanish.

This is a cultural thing for people in certain regions in Mexico, Central America and South America. I was told this by a friend that is from Mexico. It is like here in the US among some people this is also excepted. Hell when I was in High School I remember that most of the girls that were from Mexico were pregnant and married by time they were 16.

 

[Nova]

Many of us can be thankful that we were raised in a 'space' where we simply weren't exposed to this sort of thing. That probably means we lived above abject poverty, our future options were not entirely bleak or hopeless, and we weren't surrounded by drug/alcohol/aid & entitlement addicted people.

As to the 50's, isn't that around the time Jerry Lee Lewis married his 13 year old cousin and Elvis Presley imported a 14 year old for in-house easy sex? I do remember visiting Mississippi back then and seeing a celebration of a 13 year old's pregnancy because she would be marrying the baby-daddy when she turned the legal age of 14 just weeks before the baby was born and would then be "set" for life. The parents of the girl were wealthy owners of thousands of acres of rich Mississippe Delta farmland. I guess they figured their daughter's only option for a 'bright future' was by way of marriage and they were securing it early! *boggle*

For the most part, I don't think this kind of thing is nearly as related to time in history as it is to factors in the lives of the victims, whatever the ethnicity. It is a socio-economic issue, and all the more reason to emphasize raising people out of poverty and hopelessness. We have seen that simply throwing people the bone of public aid (or mailbox income as some call it) has mostly created a generational sense of entitlement rather than a helping "hand up". Reform is a SERIOUS need in this country, for sure!

Great post! I just want to add that welfare reform was pretty much a fait accompli during the Clinton years. Unfortunately, we took the easy (i.e., cheap) way out and simply limited severely the number of years anyone can collect public assistance. (Of course there are those who scam the system, as there always are, but the so-called "welfare queen" is pretty much a thing of the past.)

Instead of investing in training the poor to become employable, we signed treaties that simply shipped low-paying jobs overseas.

 

[Nova]

This is a cultural thing for people in certain regions in Mexico, Central America and South America. I was told this by a friend that is from Mexico. It is like here in the US among some people this is also excepted. Hell when I was in High School I remember that most of the girls that were from Mexico were pregnant and married by time they were 16.

I don't know your Mexican friend or where s/he get his/her information. Certainly there are parts of Mexico that are very rural and poor and, as has been discussed above, early marriage for girls is common in pre-industrial societies. In fact, it was the norm everywhere until the Industrial Revolution. It's a "cultural thing" only in the sense that economics intersect with culture.

What IS an important part of Mexican and other Latino cultures in the "Quinceanos" ritual, a celebration of a girl's 15th birthday that might be compared to a Sweet Sixteen party and a bat mitzvah.

The Quinceanos implies the girl is both a virgin and unmarried, so I doubt it is considered desirable to marry off girls at 13.

As for the age of the groom, older men tend to be more established and successful. When a girl's future economic security depends entirely on picking the right husband, it isn't surprising if an older man seems desirable.

Again, the solution is to train girls to support themselves so that they are free to marry out of choice rather than necessity.

For various historical reasons, which I'm sure I don't need to recapitulate here, certain ethnic groups in North America tend to be poorer than others. We should be careful not to assume that the symptoms of poverty (crime, early marriage, children out of wedlock, etc.) are inherent values of those ethnicities. As blacks, Latinos, etc., become middle class, they tend to assume middle-class attributes, just as Anglos and Asians.

 

[Celeste]

Wow...this story reminds me so much of a friend I had in middle school. Sad, sad story. She was 15 years old and returning to school after having dropped out a couple of years earlier to marry her 27 year old boyfriend. He was abusive to her and she was unhappy, so she was getting a divorce when I met her (can you imagine getting a divorce at the tender age of 15?). Well, she was only back in school a couple of months when he shot and killed her as she got off the school bus, then turned the gun on himself. I wish I could remember if he managed to actually kill himself. It was Valentine's Day and she was carrying flowers that she had received from an admirer--apparently that was what set him off. I guess he had been stalking her.
When I first met her and she told me her story, I remember asking her how she got her parents to sign off on that marriage. She told me that they didn't want to at first, but that she was so persistent in her repeated requests that they finally gave in. I was only 13 at the time, but I remember thinking, Well what kind of lousy, can't-be-bothered kind of parents are they? And unfortunately, their indifference eventually led to their daughter's very tragic demise.

So for those of us wondering what the parents in this case were thinking, one possible answer could be, "Not much." Maybe just giving their daughter what she wanted.

 

[glorybug]

I am sorry, but I just do not believe the situation at all. The things claimed and supposedly witnessed are all things that could be simply called in to the police and taken care of.

My fiancee is Spanish/Mexican Indian (which is what Mexicans are... indigenous peoples, AKA Indian), and there is no inherent culture like you are talking about. It sounds like you are talking about gang activity, and if that is the case, gang activity doesn't have a race.

I am trying to tiptoe here, but if I get put on a time out, let it be. Some of what is being said appears to be blatantly racist.

I really don't understand how someone could know the private details of who is legal or not. If they are not legal, and you just plain don't like them, for goodness' sake, just call them in and have them deported.

I believe that hasn't happened because there isn't really proof they are illegals. They are probably just Hispanic.

Please, time me out if you have to. I think people should be timed out when they write what is clearly racist things... but that's just me.

First, I know they are here illegaly from various incidents, events that I've witnessed. I saw a man pull up in the front one day and they all gathered around - the guy "fanned" out social security cards and each one took one! On the east side of me - the building is 3 apartments. The back apartment houses (at any given time) 5 to 12 young men. The rotation of men in and out (there are basically 3 guys that stay all the time). Of those 3 - only 1 is legal and I've been told this by others that have "hung out" with these guys. The owner of the building - IMO is running a sanctuary house and that's why the constant rotation. All of these guys are alcoholics - witnessed by the actual drinking, staggering, and then the "emptying of the bottles and cardboard containers" the next morning. I counted one day and they brought out 25 12-pack empty containers. We had to install security cameras on our house - and through that I have watched the drug deals, the hookers, and of course "the bathroom" activities of all of them. These are from Guatamala and Houndruas and down there the sanitary systems are horrible - so they don't use a bathroom. They come outside and just do their business - last year they "wee-weed" all over my garden and ruined the entire garden.

As for what these guys wanted to "do" with my DD - they just want to get their hands on her. I've watched the "gang" cat-call other girls that walk down the street. So, whether or not they are looking for a "marriage" or just that they like young girls doesn't matter to me. The age difference culturewise is obvious - they want younger girls and it seems to just be ok. We do have families further down the street. Once they have an "anchor" baby - everything kicks in. I watch everyday - these two women who have 7 kids between them and one is pregnant again. I've seen them in the grocery store swip their food stamp cards and then go to the desk to "western union" over $500. in cash back home.

LE and local PD know all about this area and while they tell us that they will let ICE and INS know about it - nothing is ever done. Last year - one of the guys next door stabbed another one. LE came, the victim went to the hospital. I followed up with LE because the "stabber" was also the pedophile that was peeking in my DD's window - seems the victim refused to talk and wouldn't tell what happened or who did it. Why? Because he was illegal and knew the other was too - and they don't RAT. The victim never showed back up but the other one is still there and "livin' large".

As for this family - it is very possible that once this girl is married, yes she will be legal - but once that baby is born - regardless of her status (married or not) that baby is a citizen and she, at least, will stay.

 

[glorybug]

"once that baby is born - regardless of her status (married or not) that baby is a citizen and she, at least, will stay."

I am not really understanding the level of hostility going on here. If it is in our laws that a child born here is a citizen, then we should treat them like a citizen. If you don't like the law, do what you can to change it. As a citizen that child will have rights, and a really big right in our country is the right to not be discriminated against.

I also don't get the point. A baby can't very well live in the USA all by themselves. Someone will have to take care of them. Most likely, family members who are already legal here. All of which would be legal. If you don't like the legal stuff, you are free to work to eliminate it. I don't really want to know why someone would want to do that, but help yourself.

As a Native American ( or as we call ourselves, Indian or NDNs), it is bizarre that people get so worked up about who lives here. History tells me that we used to live here until people stole our land. I don't have much sumpathy for people who espouse racist talk about a land they stole from someone else anyway.

Bottom line is, there are people who will hate Hispanic people (legal or not) whether they even actually know if they are legal... if they are inherently racist. But- nobody has a problem with that? It's all about the 'illegals'? Don't you think that the people who travelled here from other countries and took over a whole county that wa already owned by other people were the original
"illegals"?

 

[OneLove]

"once that baby is born - regardless of her status (married or not) that baby is a citizen and she, at least, will stay."

I am not really understanding the level of hostility going on here. If it is in our laws that a child born here is a citizen, then we should treat them like a citizen. If you don't like the law, do what you can to change it. As a citizen that child will have rights, and a really big right in our country is the right to not be discriminated against.

I also don't get the point. A baby can't very well live in the USA all by themselves. Someone will have to take care of them. Most likely, family members who are already legal here. All of which would be legal. If you don't like the legal stuff, you are free to work to eliminate it. I don't really want to know why someone would want to do that, but help yourself.

As a Native American ( or as we call ourselves, Indian or NDNs), it is bizarre that people get so worked up about who lives here. History tells me that we used to live here until people stole our land. I don't have much sumpathy for people who espouse racist talk about a land they stole from someone else anyway.

Bottom line is, there are people who will hate Hispanic people (legal or not) whether they even actually know if they are legal... if they are inherently racist. But- nobody has a problem with that? It's all about the 'illegals'? Don't you think that the people who travelled here from other countries and took over a whole county that wa already owned by other people were the original
"illegals"?

Yes, yes I do. I have said this many times in my life, including teaching it to my students. I also protested that history curriculim included indepth study of history and culture of Inca, Mayan, and Aztecs, but not this country's own original populations. But of course, I was considered quite radical back then. I also refused to identify 7% of my students for the gifted/talented program, claiming that each and every one of my students was gifted in his/her own unique way and I could not value any one's gift over another. Although quite aggravated, the superintendent finally ended up sending the gifted/talented teacher to my classroom for that time period to teach the whole class. I saw students blossom that would never have gotten that opportunity otherwise.

But back to your original statements and well-founded indignation, yes, European immigrants ARE the original intruders, and a world of atrocities were committed against the long-established residents. In those days, they excused stripping people of their rights by calling them "savages". Hmmm.....I believe that's the same general way Hitler was able to commit HIS atrocities, only the word he used was "vermin". Hopefully, people have learned to think for themselves instead of blindly following cheap sound-bites. We can only hope.

No, no I guess we must do MORE than merely hope; we MUST speak up when it is called for. And thank you for doing just that! <3

 

[Nova]

As I'm sure you know, OneLove, the emphasis on the Inca, Maya and Aztecs (all cultures that fascinate me, BTW) originated because they created civilizations (particularly including architecture, city planning and art) that were more easily recognized by the arriving Europeans.

On another note, I've lived within 100 miles of the Mexican border for 25 years now. Oddly, I hear far less hysteria about "illegal Hispanics" here than I do from the rest of the country.

 

[Debbie3223]

tHIS ISNT MEXICO!!!! he is a child molester!!!! PERIOD.. and the family are enablers.. nasty nasty nasty people.. ewwwww

 

[Belinda]

Illegal immigration is such a divisive issue in this country, especially since the economy tanked. I know that the issue is much too big and too difficult for me to believe I would ever have the answer, so I stay out of the fray. I believe that some issues truly require great minds who can see and understand all the facets. Most of us see things from the point of our personal knowledge and experience. Sometimes just when I think I understand a particular issue, someone will say something that makes me suddenly see a whole other side. This is one of those issues. I imagine it will never really be solved. It will just be handled differently by different administrations and the shuffling will continue.

As far as the girl is concerned, it is just sad all the way around. For whatever reason this has been allowed to occur (i.e. culture, economic, poor parenting or whatever) it still must be dealt with. I, personally, believe the parents should also be prosecuted if they did, indeed, allow and promote this. It is child abuse from all parties, plain and simple. What is to become of this girl and her baby?

 

[Kat]

I reread the article.

I didn't see it stated what the citizenship status was of anyone named in that article. I'm not sure what it has to do with the situation myself.

Like Nova, I lived very close to the border. In fact, I lived within walking distance (granted a long walk, but walkable) to the border.

In EP, I never heard as much discussion about whether or not someone was legal or illegal based on their surname, as I have in other parts of the country.

Also, just in case someone isn't aware of it, the 14th amendment makes citizenship a birthright. It's constitutional law as of now. It can be amended of course, or challenged by congress, and I expect that it may, but then it will probably be presented to the Supreme Court ...etc...etc... it will be long, drawn out and painful.

I have read where AZ wants to pass state law concerning birthright citizenship. That is a very complicated issue.

As I said earlier in the thread, I don't think this is about race or culture. This is about a man who has had sex with an underage girl. That is a crime and it is his crime. Her parents could possibly be charged with a crime but I'm not sure which one.

All JMHO.

ETA: Hispanic/Latino/Latina is not a race. It is an ethnicity. That's not JMHO.

 

[Belinda]

I didn't see it stated what the citizenship status was of anyone named in that article. I'm not sure what it has to do with the situation myself.

Respectfully snipped from Kat's post above.

Me either, but that seemed to be the topic of discussion.

 

[Nova]

Of course, Kat is technically right that Latinos may be of any biological race. Latinos in Central and much of South America tend to be some mixture of Native American and European. Latinos in the Caribbean and Brazil tend to be some mixture of Native American, European and African.

But biological category is only one meaning of the word "race" in English. The same word has long been used to indicate ethnicity and in writings as recent as a few decades ago, it was common for the English to refer to the "German race," the "French race," etc.

And in Spanish, the same word "la raza" may indicate either biological race or ethnic group. In fact, at least here in California, Mexican-Americans use "La Raza" (i.e., the "race") to refer to themselves as a group or community.

More importantly, in practical terms, Latino-Americans have been and continue to be treated more or less as a separate race. And even though there are significant differences in the historical treatment of African-Americans, Native Americans, Asian-Americans, and Latinos, there are also significant similarities in some forms of discrimination.

Finally, biologists themselves are questioning the very concept of "biological race" because modern DNA studies don't confirm the strict divisions we were taught in school.

So I think "race" is a perfectly relevant term when discussing Latinos, even though Latinos may indeed be white, black or brown (or even Asian in the case of some Filippinos).

HOWEVER, I agree that at the end of the day, sex with a 13-year-old is wrong, regardless of anyone's race.

 

[txsvicki]

There's lots of Hispanic folks in my town and I never notice older men with much younger wives. Like the other poster said, they're all about the same age and no different than anyone else. This guy just wanted to go with a very young, barely a teen girl. Arrest him, make him pay child support if the girl and her family keeps the baby, and he probably will have no interest in the girl in 5 more years when she's of legal age. As for illegals or not acting up in a rental unit, they're probably just alcoholics without much income and acting like drunks act. I wouldn't be happy either if any grown man tried to give my teen daughter love notes and peeked in the window. We had an unknown window peeper looking at my daughter once, but he got away, and it is a scary feeling. My daughter was once offered $150,000 to marry a twenty something relative of her restaurant boss from India so that he could be legal, but she turned them down of course.

 

[Nova]

I certainly agree with TXVicki.

It's funny how this thread became about ethnicity. I don't believe anyone has suggested that racial or cultural background is an excuse for having sex with a 13-year-old.

 

[OneLove]

As I'm sure you know, OneLove, the emphasis on the Inca, Maya and Aztecs (all cultures that fascinate me, BTW) originated because they created civilizations (particularly including architecture, city planning and art) that were more easily recognized by the arriving Europeans.

On another note, I've lived within 100 miles of the Mexican border for 25 years now. Oddly, I hear far less hysteria about "illegal Hispanics" here than I do from the rest of the country.

So true, Nova. I only wish they had included the Anasazi culture of the same time period that was within our own present-day boundaries. They had well-developed communities, art, agriculture, and extensive roads. They had woven cloth from growing cotton and feather blankets, along with amazing pottery and jewelry. The cliff dwellings were extraordinary and Mesa Verde in southern Colorada has a wonderful museum of the remnants of their civilization, along with restored cliff dwellings and kivas. They also traded commerce with west coast civilizations and the Incas, Mayans, and Aztecs. They are seriously under-represented in education about this time period.

On the different attitudes about "illegalls" closer to the border, I had an epiphany the first time I really saw the great southwest. It is clear, if one pays attention, that it was THEIR country before we killed people to take it from them. I've had alot more respect since that time.

 

[Nova]

So true, Nova. I only wish they had included the Anasazi culture of the same time period that was within our own present-day boundaries. They had well-developed communities, art, agriculture, and extensive roads. They had woven cloth from growing cotton and feather blankets, along with amazing pottery and jewelry. The cliff dwellings were extraordinary and Mesa Verde in southern Colorada has a wonderful museum of the remnants of their civilization, along with restored cliff dwellings and kivas. They also traded commerce with west coast civilizations and the Incas, Mayans, and Aztecs. They are seriously under-represented in education about this time period.

On the different attitudes about "illegalls" closer to the border, I had an epiphany the first time I really saw the great southwest. It is clear, if one pays attention, that it was THEIR country before we killed people to take it from them. I've had alot more respect since that time.

Exactly! I think things are changing of late. There's a lot more attention, including programs on History, Discovery, etc., on the Anastazi, the so-called "mound builders", etc. My town's art museum has an excellent collection of local artifacts in addition to Aztec, Maya, Olmec and Toltec relics. The city is half-Indian reservation and the local tribe, the Agua Caliente, is building a multi-million-dollar cultural center so that more of their history can be on permanent display.

Another reason for the historical emphasis on Meso-Americans is that the first Europeans found those civilizations relatively intact. North American natives were so decimated by small pox, early colonists found little in the way of native civilization to record.