Flies and Maggots in the trunk - forensic entomology #1

[kgeaux]

Well, I just went back into the dump for another question I had and I found
this:

http://www.wesh.com/download/2008/1126/18155477.pdf

Page #14

ETA: so there was unwrapped pizza?

Yes, dear. Page 13 lays it out more clearly....." a decomposing pizza was found in the trunk of the car, and it is unknown what effect (if any) this has had on test results."

Paraphrased according to kgeaux.

And death to the oft cited "There was NO pizza, Cindy!" That I read on this forum so often.

pg. 14 explains that the pizza was unwrapped, decomposing with oxygen. The other compounds found suggest ANerobic decomposition: so it could have been a child's body wrapped up tightly. It could have been a roast wrapped up for the freezer. Lots of opening here for the defense. LOTS.

 

[RR0004]

Ya know what ??? I'm sooo confused by the differing info in these docs....in the docs from the Body Farm there is a bolded statement that there was no pizza in the bag.....LOL I wish they could make up their minds....my eye balls are gonna explode from reading!! LOL

But could have it been in the trunk? Like a slice floating around?

 

[RR0004]

Yes, dear. Page 13 lays it out more clearly....." a decomposing pizza was found in the trunk of the car, and it is unknown what effect (if any) this has had on test results."

Paraphrased according to kgeaux.

And death to the oft cited "There was NO pizza, Cindy!" That I read on this forum so often.

pg. 14 explains that the pizza was unwrapped, decomposing with oxygen. The other compounds found suggest ANerobic decomposition: so it could have been a child's body wrapped up tightly. It could have been a roast wrapped up for the freezer. Lots of opening here for the defense. LOTS.

I think that LE meant there was no pizza in the box...but there was some lying loose in the trunk. JMO

ETA: didn't George also say he put his nose to the stain...I'm wondering if he was looking to see if it smelled like pizza. (ok...I've officially lost it!)

 

[anastacia129]

on pg 2287 it says the trunk "contained a pizza box but no pizza". so was there pizza in the trunk or not?:waitasec:

 

[kgeaux]

Correct me if I am wrong - I thought maggots only existed in decaying flesh or tissue (animal or otherwise) but NOT pizza

Blowflies will lay their eggs on any decomposing meat. Dead people, dead dogs and rotting beef roasts.

Ya know what ??? I'm sooo confused by the differing info in these docs....in the docs from the Body Farm there is a bolded statement that there was no pizza in the bag.....LOL I wish they could make up their minds....my eye balls are gonna explode from reading!! LOL

It's not that confusing! AErobic vs. ANerobic decomp......with oxygen vs. without, unwrapped vs. wrapped.

But could have it been in the trunk? Like a slice floating around?

Ding, ding, ding! You get the door prize! Yes, there was pizza.....see pages 13 and 14. It was NOT wrapped....see the same pages. It was not in the pizza box or the bag the pizza box was in.....see page 2287.

 

[kgeaux]

I think that LE meant there was no pizza in the box...but there was some lying loose in the trunk. JMO

ETA: didn't George also say he put his nose to the stain...I'm wondering if he was looking to see if it smelled like pizza. (ok...I've officially lost it!)

That is exactly right. I guess everybody had "hung their hat" on the fact that no pizza was in the box, but this report makes it clear that there WAS decomposing pizza in the trunk: (Cindy was right!! gasp!) It boggles the mind, doesn't it?

 

[Gaia713]

Blowflies will lay their eggs on any decomposing meat. Dead people, dead dogs and rotting beef roasts.



It's not that confusing! AErobic vs. ANerobic decomp......with oxygen vs. without, unwrapped vs. wrapped.



Ding, ding, ding! You get the door prize! Yes, there was pizza.....see pages 13 and 14. It was NOT wrapped....see the same pages. It was not in the pizza box or the bag the pizza box was in.....see page 2287.

Where is the beef roast that you say the flies laid their eggs on?
I habe yet to see a pizza with any maggots on it. It turns into a substance close to leather, not something maggots go for. I have seen hudnrfeds of pizzas tossed into an open dumpster in 100+ weather and never a maggot on one - and they don't SMELL like rotting food either

 

[RR0004]

In the doc you linked....down to pg 2519.....says there was a mistake....no pizza as previously reported.

Bless you!! I'd hug you if you were here. I saw the pages of chemical interpretations and said "Oh, not these again". How do you make that mistake? Or was it an attempt to refute CA? It sure casts a whole different light on the exchange between CA and GA regarding the smell..."It was the pizza, right George?" (or to that effect)

 

[RR0004]

on pg 2287 it says the trunk "contained a pizza box but no pizza". so was there pizza in the trunk or not?:waitasec:

See below.

 

[RR0004]

That is exactly right. I guess everybody had "hung their hat" on the fact that no pizza was in the box, but this report makes it clear that there WAS decomposing pizza in the trunk: (Cindy was right!! gasp!) It boggles the mind, doesn't it?

Nope...me wrong.

 

[anastacia129]

"In this case the accused was convicted of murder, suggesting that the jury did not believe that the maggots on the victim came from a mysterious alternate source. Nevertheless, we suspect that situations do occur in which a plausible alternate maggot food source is found quite close to a human corpse on which maggots are feeding."

This is about a case where someone was convicted with the help of maggots.

http://74.125.45.132/search?q=cache...om+maggots+convicted&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us

 

[kgeaux]

Where is the beef roast that you say the flies laid their eggs on?
I habe yet to see a pizza with any maggots on it. It turns into a substance close to leather, not something maggots go for. I have seen hudnrfeds of pizzas tossed into an open dumpster in 100+ weather and never a maggot on one - and they don't SMELL like rotting food either

It comes from page (I think) 14 of the linked document. It does NOT say, nor have I said, that there WAS a roast...it throws out several scenarios when discussing the pizza and maggots found in the trunk. I'll see if I can copy it for you....

 

[TURBOTHINK]

Blowflies will lay their eggs on any decomposing meat. Dead people, dead dogs and rotting beef roasts.

I believe you are referring to the "flesh fly" (Sarcophagidae), which is in the same family as blow flies, (Calliphoridae) species. There is a lot of difference in the two types although they both feed on a corpse, they do it differently and they are easily identifiable as to which type.

The larvae of blow flies use proteolytic enzymes in their excreta (as well as mechanical grinding by mouth hooks) to break down proteins on the corpse they are feeding on. Blowflies are poikilothermic, which is to say that the rate at which they grow and develop is highly dependent on temperature and species. Under room temperature (about 30 degrees Celsius) the black blowfly Phormia regina can go from egg to pupa in 150-266 hours (6 to 11 days). When the third stage is complete the pupa will leave the corpse and burrow into an area, emerging as an adult 7 to 14 days later.

Flies of the Diptera family Sarcophagidae = flesh, phage = eating; the same roots as the word "sarcophagus") are commonly known as "flesh flies". Most flesh flies breed in carrion, dung, or decaying material, but a few species lay their eggs in the open wounds of mammals;[1] hence their common name

Flesh-flies, being frequently give birth to live young on corpses of human and other animals, at any stage of decomposition from newly dead through to bloated or decaying (though the latter is more commonly seen)

 

[MOMto5]

That is exactly right. I guess everybody had "hung their hat" on the fact that no pizza was in the box, but this report makes it clear that there WAS decomposing pizza in the trunk: (Cindy was right!! gasp!) It boggles the mind, doesn't it?

Okay, sorry, but now I am confused....This report states that "previous reports of a decomposing pizza found in the vehicle trunk were not true and this was incorrectly stated in the previous report." Further on the same page, while talking about a pizza test performed, the report states that this test was "included as a control even though no pizza was actually found in the Florida vehicle."

http://media.myfoxorlando.com/photo...606-O_CASEY_ANTHONY_PG._1925-1990_Page_07.htm

 

[kgeaux]

Where is the beef roast that you say the flies laid their eggs on?
I habe yet to see a pizza with any maggots on it. It turns into a substance close to leather, not something maggots go for. I have seen hudnrfeds of pizzas tossed into an open dumpster in 100+ weather and never a maggot on one - and they don't SMELL like rotting food either

Here you go, Gaia:

While these are very preliminary results, the results at this point appear to be consistent with a decompositional event having occured in the trunk of the car. This does not rule out the possibility that an animal carcass (had to be wrapped to produce anaerobic compounds), rotting meat, paint, varnish, cleaners, degreasers, or garbage was transported in the trunk at some time that may have contributed to the observed chemical compounds. Arapol Vass, Ph.D.,Research Scientist/Forensic Anthropologist

 

[anastacia129]

Here you go, Gaia:

I think that report is referring to the air tests, and saying the compounds identified in the air could have come from those things (roast beef) I don't think it is stating those things were in fact in the car, but that those items might cause the same results of the air sample tests, had they been there. I hope that makes sense, I dont type as fast as I think.:crazy:

 

[kgeaux]

I believe you are referring to the "flesh fly" (Sarcophagidae), which is in the same family as blow flies, (Calliphoridae) species. There is a lot of difference in the two types although they both feed on a corpse, they do it differently and they are easily identifiable as to which type.

The larvae of blow flies use proteolytic enzymes in their excreta (as well as mechanical grinding by mouth hooks) to break down proteins on the corpse they are feeding on. Blowflies are poikilothermic, which is to say that the rate at which they grow and develop is highly dependent on temperature and species. Under room temperature (about 30 degrees Celsius) the black blowfly Phormia regina can go from egg to pupa in 150-266 hours (6 to 11 days). When the third stage is complete the pupa will leave the corpse and burrow into an area, emerging as an adult 7 to 14 days later.

Flies of the Diptera family Sarcophagidae = flesh, phage = eating; the same roots as the word "sarcophagus") are commonly known as "flesh flies". Most flesh flies breed in carrion, dung, or decaying material, but a few species lay their eggs in the open wounds of mammals;[1] hence their common name

Flesh-flies, being frequently give birth to live young on corpses of human and other animals, at any stage of decomposition from newly dead through to bloated or decaying (though the latter is more commonly seen)

Well, I don't know what I'm referring to! blowkiss I had to bring a poop specimen from my pup to the vets and he asked he how long the sample had lain in the grass before I "collected" it.....answer was maybe 30 to 45 seconds. He showed me some "blowfly" eggs on the surface of the poop. Maybe he generalized and meant flesh fly eggs? I see what you are saying, or at least I "think" I do: Blow flys land on the corpse to FEED on the proteins of the decomposing body and to LAY EGGS. This happens only at a particular time in the decomp. The flesh fly does not FEED on the corpse (or host?) it just uses it as a depository for its eggs, and it will do so at any time during decomp. (?) Is that it?

So, WILL blowflys land on and participate in the decomp of animals, roasts, things other than humans? Or ONLY on humans?

And do we know which type of fly the maggots came from?

 

[MyTinkieGirl]

Blowflies will lay their eggs on any decomposing meat. Dead people, dead dogs and rotting beef roasts.





It's not that confusing! AErobic vs. ANerobic decomp......with oxygen vs. without, unwrapped vs. wrapped.



Ding, ding, ding! You get the door prize! Yes, there was pizza.....see pages 13 and 14. It was NOT wrapped....see the same pages. It was not in the pizza box or the bag the pizza box was in.....see page 2287.

Ding Ding Ding....NOT !!! LOL (sorry) No pizza in bag !!!!! Or anywhere...just box....re read pg 2519......prior report made a MISTAKE...just did an experiment for ha ha's....pg 2287 is where they dump the bag out and no pizza, only box.....THESE type of statements are what were confusing me !! LOL

 

[kgeaux]

I think that report is referring to the air tests, and saying the compounds identified in the air could have come from those things (roast beef) I don't think it is stating those things were in fact in the car, but that those items might cause the same results of the air sample tests, had they been there. I hope that makes sense, I dont type as fast as I think.:crazy:

Yep, that's exactly right. I used ONE OF Dr. Vass's examples of things that could not be ruled out. Naturally, since I was posting from the benefit of doubt position, I cherry-picked which one was chosen........the one that would result in maggots of course!

We know no roast was found. But Dr. Lee says "ham" was found. Ham decomposes, decomposing ham would host maggots. (I am of the opinion that the amount of ham he found must have been miniscule since I would HOPE LE would have collected all evidence from the trunk. But posters from that area assure me that LE could well have left evidence behind and is indeed KNOWN to leave evidence behind. If that is true, perhaps the amount of ham was more significant. We do know that whatever "new evidence" Dr. Lee found was turned over to LE, so we will perhaps one day learn "for real" what it consists of.)

 

[Shar824]

Can you imagine CA's reaction when the DNA from maggots convict her daughter? She tried so to cover up all the evidence and little maggots "told the truth."

I know.....it's not going to be a pretty picture when CA finally hears it. But even with evidence right in front of her...more than likely she's going to deny that it's Caylee. CA is living in her own little world right now, and that world she's in is really really fragile. This trial is probably going to push her over the edge, and even though it's CA....it makes me sad, especially when her daughter could have put an end to this a long time ago.