Forensic Botany

New Posts

Would the transfer of pollen,foliage, cuttings, seedlings in the torn bag grow like plants in a terrariumn?
 
BondJamesBond said:
​
FWIW, I just Googled "hibiscus germination" and w/o too much reading found at least one source stating 7-21 days.

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/seed/msg0823015724304.html

"Yes! I always nick the seeds and soak them for about 24-48 hours before planting. They should come up in 7-21 days maybe longer. Hibiscus are one of my favorite plants."

I'm not suggesting the conditions are the same...just that some focused Google-time might yield some answers regarding when the hibiscus will seed, etc.

Happy sleuthing!
Click to expand...


Hibiscus bushes can be prolific seed producers. They have many flower buds on each stem. Each flower produces a seed pod nearly as big as a golf ball that has at least 100 seeds that look like little bb's. As the pods dry, they split open into wedge shaped segments. The seeds fall out and readily sprout, both in sunshine and SHADE...

Very interesting......
 
If Casey had left hibiscus flowers with Caylee, could they have dried up and the seeds sprouted? If so, then the resulting plant (which could have been intertwined with the bones would be a genetic match with the plant in the yard.
 
debirlfan said:
If Casey had left hibiscus flowers with Caylee, could they have dried up and the seeds sprouted? If so, then the resulting plant (which could have been intertwined with the bones would be a genetic match with the plant in the yard.
Click to expand...

I doubt she placed flowers with her. However, the cadaver dogs did hit in the back yard. It is quite possible the seeds (the size of bb's) could have gotten attached in Caylee's clothing and/or hair.
 
I'm going to add a little local knowledge of Florida plants here and hope it may help. This info is not fact per say, just my 45 years of living in FL knowledge. This is my favorite plant due to it's ease of growing and minimal necessary care with the reward of big and pretty flowers.

Hibiscus is one of the few large flowering bushes that grow very well in FL and come in red, white, pink and yellow (blue also but must special order).

It is a very hearty plant and can grow with little water and in many types of ground (sandy, hard, clay, grassy, etc)

I know from experience that it does NOT grow well in areas that are very wet or very shaded. It's leaves yellow and it turns to a bush of "sticks" with minimal if any leaves and those leaves are very, very small (size of dime maybe)

Healthy hibiscus like dry to occasional water, fertilizer not necessary for prolific blooming as long as they have LOTS OF SUN.

Can be planted as small as 5-6 inch plant and with sun and average normal rainfall with no additional watering grow to 3-4 feet or more in 6 mos. and reach heights I have seen of 10-12 feet and very wide.

Yellow flowering hibiscus seem to be more sensitive to conditions than the other colors - red is the easiest to grow just about anywhere with sun.

In my opinion, a hibiscus would never have survived that dark, dense forest type of area - especially with the tremendous water that stood for many weeks - it would have drowned. They prefer dry to slightly damp and definitely need direct and even hot sun.

The photobucket picture mentioned and linked in the above post (good find by the way!) has a watermark/background type picture of a hibiscus stamen (the thingy that sticks up in the center of the flower with the pollen on it), but the small white flowers scattered all over the photo are "frangipani" which also grow pretty well in FL. and are small trees with a need of a lot of sun and a lot of frequently drained water.

I personally think the botanical evidence was simply to date the dump of the body and I believe the extremely strong evidence they are talking about most likely comes from the duct tape and whatever (tears, vomit) I'm crying here, was found forensically on the sticky side of the duct tape and proved that Caylee was alive when it was applied to her face....

Oh God, I have to stop now - crying again...
 
This topic is so horrifying to me, yet I am grateful that there are persons willing and able to do it. I am sure it is hard for them as well, but if it means justice, someone's gotta do it :(
 
Since TM mentioned that Caylees remains were tucked under a palmetto I looked them up and it states that they are found in wetlands. That makes sense given that so many people are saying the area had standing water during the rainy season. Not all plants will grow in an area that has standing water part of the year, so I don't think a hibiscus would grow in those conditions. I wonder if it was the palmetto that was spreading its roots through the remains, that would mean the bag had to have been open/pierced by the roots and they had to have been there for quite some time for that to occur. The overgrowth could have concealed the bag even after the water receded. I still have so many questions.
 
I still want to know how someone can date the day of death to the 18th through either botany or entomology. Was this just another NG conclusion jumping episode?

Seem that they can get to a time FRAME which includes the 18th, but to get the 18th specifically? How? Anyone?
 
cocoamom said:
I'm going to add a little local knowledge of Florida plants here and hope it may help. This info is not fact per say, just my 45 years of living in FL knowledge. This is my favorite plant due to it's ease of growing and minimal necessary care with the reward of big and pretty flowers.

Hibiscus is one of the few large flowering bushes that grow very well in FL and come in red, white, pink and yellow (blue also but must special order).

It is a very hearty plant and can grow with little water and in many types of ground (sandy, hard, clay, grassy, etc)

I know from experience that it does NOT grow well in areas that are very wet or very shaded. It's leaves yellow and it turns to a bush of "sticks" with minimal if any leaves and those leaves are very, very small (size of dime maybe)

Healthy hibiscus like dry to occasional water, fertilizer not necessary for prolific blooming as long as they have LOTS OF SUN.

Can be planted as small as 5-6 inch plant and with sun and average normal rainfall with no additional watering grow to 3-4 feet or more in 6 mos. and reach heights I have seen of 10-12 feet and very wide.

Yellow flowering hibiscus seem to be more sensitive to conditions than the other colors - red is the easiest to grow just about anywhere with sun.

In my opinion, a hibiscus would never have survived that dark, dense forest type of area - especially with the tremendous water that stood for many weeks - it would have drowned. They prefer dry to slightly damp and definitely need direct and even hot sun.

The photobucket picture mentioned and linked in the above post (good find by the way!) has a watermark/background type picture of a hibiscus stamen (the thingy that sticks up in the center of the flower with the pollen on it), but the small white flowers scattered all over the photo are "frangipani" which also grow pretty well in FL. and are small trees with a need of a lot of sun and a lot of frequently drained water.

I personally think the botanical evidence was simply to date the dump of the body and I believe the extremely strong evidence they are talking about most likely comes from the duct tape and whatever (tears, vomit) I'm crying here, was found forensically on the sticky side of the duct tape and proved that Caylee was alive when it was applied to her face....

Oh God, I have to stop now - crying again...
Click to expand...


Would you transplant a large hibiscus in June ? Here in GA, we'd wait 'till late Fall to move large shrubs.
 
WOW you guys have really put alot of very good information together....Thankx for the links to the species of plants etc....It allows the layperson to "try" and interpet the complexities that the botanist face in this case...I resided in SE GA for many years and never knew of the potato vine....I knew of kudzu and how quick it grew...AGAIN thankx..

I have a question to those who would know:
In this picture what are the plants that look like elephant ears does anyone know?
http://www.rsxtaci.com/Caylee/196434.jpg
 
DotsEyes said:
I still want to know how someone can date the day of death to the 18th through either botany or entomology. Was this just another NG conclusion jumping episode?

Seem that they can get to a time FRAME which includes the 18th, but to get the 18th specifically? How? Anyone?
Click to expand...

IMHO, the entomology has the best chance of being more specific about the date & time of death. The "...Forensic Entomology" thread has some real experts that can explain it much better than I can, but, it is a very exacting science that is well established.

Also, IMHO, the botany has the ability to (a) tie unique species to the G&C yard as others are suggesting, and/or (b) establish the minumum length of time the body has been in the found location based on maturity of plants growing through the remains and, perhaps even under and around the bag. I don't know if it is fact or speculation, but, it has been suggested that (c) plants may update decomposition byproducts similar to fertilizer, thereby providing some additional info too.
 
Nope, I wouldn't transplant ANYTHING but a cactus in June in FL high summer! DUH - the A's amaze me. I would move a plant if it were stepped on, broken or well on it's way out anyway and I had nothing to lose! Maybe KC stepped on it? Who knows.

With the water for so long in the find area, not much would survive underwater. Palmettos are EVERYWHERE, including my yard. I hate 'em. Snake heaven in and under a palmetto bush and seems that NOTHING kills them! They would survive and they seem to sprout new fan type leaves all the time. I am betting some of these new leaves poked through the skeleton as well as maybe some shade/blue fern. If it is hibiscus related I would vote on her putting flowers with the body. I think she did this in a minute of rage and it was too late to take it back and maybe felt just a twinge of regret. (Would like to think that anyway.)

These scientists as Bond said can tell down to the day. They know by the growth of new palmetto fronds, etc how old things are - kinda like the rings of a tree can tell it's age to the year but on a cellular level I think. I need to talk to my scientist/biologist son again - lol.
 
cocoamom said:
]Nope, I wouldn't transplant ANYTHING but a cactus in June in FL high summer! DUH - the A's amaze me. I would move a plant if it were stepped on, broken or well on it's way out anyway and I had nothing to lose! Maybe KC stepped on it? Who knows.[/B]

With the water for so long in the find area, not much would survive underwater. Palmettos are EVERYWHERE, including my yard. I hate 'em. Snake heaven in and under a palmetto bush and seems that NOTHING kills them! They would survive and they seem to sprout new fan type leaves all the time. I am betting some of these new leaves poked through the skeleton as well as maybe some shade/blue fern. If it is hibiscus related I would vote on her putting flowers with the body. I think she did this in a minute of rage and it was too late to take it back and maybe felt just a twinge of regret. (Would like to think that anyway.)

These scientists as Bond said can tell down to the day. They know by the growth of new palmetto fronds, etc how old things are - kinda like the rings of a tree can tell it's age to the year but on a cellular level I think. I need to talk to my scientist/biologist son again - lol.
Click to expand...

Bolded by me

I wonder what the health of the plant was before they moved it ? After ? Moving that plant has always bothered me.....a lot.
 
After reading this thread (and living in South Florida all my life) I am now wondering if LE found bamboo leaves on the duct tape, in the bag or around the crime scene? hhhmmmm...............
 
SWAG1959 said:
After reading this thread (and living in South Florida all my life) I am now wondering if LE found bamboo leaves on the duct tape, in the bag or around the crime scene? hhhmmmm...............
Click to expand...


The cadaver dogs signaled twice in the back yard, so I strongly believe something from that yard was attached to the duct tape and hair.

I am confident that a hibiscus bush did not grow at the remains site. However, a seed(s) could have been on the duct tape. After the flood waters evaporated, it would have sprouted with the warm conditions. Seeds need warmth and moisture to germinate, not sunlight.
 
SWAG1959 said:
After reading this thread (and living in South Florida all my life) I am now wondering if LE found bamboo leaves on the duct tape, in the bag or around the crime scene? hhhmmmm...............
Click to expand...

Good question. Bamboo would survive under water, I have some growing in my pond and in my bog area.
 
bailee said:
Perhaps KC carried some sort of identifiable insectiside or lime from the yard to the dumping site?

I always wondered obout those bottles being removed...
Click to expand...


wow, thats good and likely
 
Shaymus at The Rock said:
Would you transplant a large hibiscus in June ? Here in GA, we'd wait 'till late Fall to move large shrubs.
Click to expand...

FWIW, in the Greta interview, Cindy indicated that the hibiscus was moved in order to allow the Rubbermaid storage chest to be scooted back away from the edge of the pool into the corner of the house/porch so that Caylee couldn't climb up on it and fall into the pool.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

DNASolves

Who is Escambia County John Doe (1989)?

Members online

... and 190 more.
Total: 4,244 (members: 191, guests: 4,053)

Online statistics

Members online
191
Guests online
4,053
Total visitors
4,244
Totals may include hidden visitors.

Forum statistics

Threads
592,594
Messages
17,971,519
Members
228,836
Latest member
672
Back
Top