France - 5 shot, 4 dead in French Alps, may have int'l ramifications, 2012 #2

[Snoopster]

Thanks for the update to this case.

So does this report prove that the Belgian was shot because his vehicle had a foreign license plate, because he had children in the back (asleep, so probably not visible), and because he was on holiday?

Similarly, do they prove the killer at Chevaline shot the al-Hilli family because they were on holiday, because there was one child in the car (he seems not to have known about the one in the back), and because of the foreign license plate?

Are trees so rare in France that a serial killer would have to go all the way to a parking lot in the mountains above Chevaline to find some, similar to the ones at the earlier highway rest stop murder?

The Belgian was shot 5 times, it's not clear where all his wounds were located, whereas two shots to the head was the prefered technique of the Alps murder.

My understanding is that the gun used to kill the Belgian was a rare type of rifle, generally only owned by collectors Qui a tué le nivellois Xavier Baligant ? Dix ans après sa mort, toujours aucune réponse

Whereas the Luger P06 used in the Annency shooting was a very popular and standard pistol owned across Europe, in the same way and for the same reason Swiss watches were popular. There is a high likelihood of inheriting one, or easily buying one.

Then there are the many thing that are very different aspects of the two crimes: for example that one deliberately targetted a solo person in the wee hours of the morning, while the other was a massacre of a large number of people in the middle of the day...just unimportant trivial details to these supposedly expert crime analysts.

JMO

You ask great questions.
I don't think any of us know the answers.

All I know is that a family and a cyclist went up into the mountain in Annecy and they were shot. We don't know who the target was. Was it the al-Hilli family or was it Mollier?

Regardless, I don't find it surprising that in one case a single person was killed and in this case a number of people were victims. I believe that the shooter was focused on a specific victim in each case. I used to consider a random shooter was responsible for killing this family and Mollier, but now I'm discounting that situation.

So who was the target? al-Hilli vs Mollier?

 

[Snoopster]

Am I the only person who believes (admittedly naively) that al Hilli went on that drive up the mountain to meet Mollier and that the British military guy who 'came across the scene' was a spy who was following them?

Chevaline.
What happened?

This was not an accident.

And someone decided to file this case under 'rampage killings & terrorist attacks'. I don't believe this is the correct thread for a second.

 

[Kemug]

You may well be right. But it seems we will never know.

 

[ZaZara]

Thanks for the update to this case.

So does this report prove that the Belgian was shot because his vehicle had a foreign license plate, because he had children in the back (asleep, so probably not visible), and because he was on holiday?

Similarly, do they prove the killer at Chevaline shot the al-Hilli family because they were on holiday, because there was one child in the car (he seems not to have known about the one in the back), and because of the foreign license plate?

Are trees so rare in France that a serial killer would have to go all the way to a parking lot in the mountains above Chevaline to find some, similar to the ones at the earlier highway rest stop murder?

The Belgian was shot 5 times, it's not clear where all his wounds were located, whereas two shots to the head was the prefered technique of the Alps murder.

My understanding is that the gun used to kill the Belgian was a rare type of rifle, generally only owned by collectors Qui a tué le nivellois Xavier Baligant ? Dix ans après sa mort, toujours aucune réponse

Whereas the Luger P06 used in the Annency shooting was a very popular and standard pistol owned across Europe, in the same way and for the same reason Swiss watches were popular. There is a high likelihood of inheriting one, or easily buying one.

Then there are the many thing that are very different aspects of the two crimes: for example that one deliberately targetted a solo person in the wee hours of the morning, while the other was a massacre of a large number of people in the middle of the day...just unimportant trivial details to these supposedly expert crime analysts.

JMO

I am not sure that this is an update on the case. Someone has written a book. A channel has made a documentary.
IMHO this has nothing to do with progress in the official investigation.

Somenone has an opinion about the work of the police... happens every day. Does not imply that they were right, even remotely.

From what I have read about it - I have not read the book itself - I am surprised about the alleged similarities too because there are more differences IMO. The locations could not be more different for instance. A rest stop along a motorway..... as children already we were taught to be wary of those places, a meeting point for creeps, anything could happen there. Whether it was near the woods or not. The murder of Xavier Baligant may well have been a case of mistaken identity, perhaps related to drugs ~ and XB had nothing to do with whatever it was at all.

As for the children ~ there is a difference between being fast asleep in the backseat of a car, and being hidden for hours under the legs of your dying / dead mother, tucked away moments before she was assassinated. IMO in neither case, the shooter was aware of the existence of the child / children, something they would have known if the victims were tageted and followed.

When Nordahl Lelandais was in the news for the abduction and murder of little Maelys, it was also suggested that he could be responsible for 'Chevaline', among at least 40 other cases from the wider region. The similarities were hard to come by, and nothing came of it. But hey! for some people this counted as work.

 

[MrsWatson]

I've followed crime for a long, long time. This case remains one of the most mysterious. I think this may possibly never be solved. After this long, I don't think the police even have a solid idea of who was the target, let alone motive. All of the victim's lives have been dissected thoroughly, huge resources have been expended, and it doesn't seem any closer to being solved than in the beginning.

I'm not one for conspiracy theories, but this case does make make me wonder if there were other factors involved that will never come to light.

All MOO and pure speculation

 

[Cedars]

I've followed crime for a long, long time. This case remains one of the most mysterious. I think this may possibly never be solved. After this long, I don't think the police even have a solid idea of who was the target, let alone motive. All of the victim's lives have been dissected thoroughly, huge resources have been expended, and it doesn't seem any closer to being solved than in the beginning.

I'm not one for conspiracy theories, but this case does make make me wonder if there were other factors involved that will never come to light.

All MOO and pure speculation

Personally, I think what has not been discovered is significant - that is, any evidence that anyone could have planned /arranged / known that those specific victims would be at that location, at that time; as well as no discernable motive to target those victims. .

Random victim mass shootings are something we are very familiar with in the US: just look at other cases on this particular forum 'rampage killings and terrorist attacks'.

Sometimes the perp is suicidal and is therefore known. In other cases, surveillance cameras allow police to identify or track them as they flee the scene. Or the shooter keeps committing shootings and improves the chances of police figuring it out.

None of those things happened here: particularly, no cameras, no surviving witnesses, no repeated attacks.

However, this crime entirely fits the profile of a mass shooting, therefore the killer would probably fit the profile of a mass shooter: a loner with grievances against society, consumed with a desire to kill, wanting to terrorize the local community with an outbreak of extreme violence, and a love of guns.

Think of the Unibomber, the Las Vegas shooter, innumerable school shooters.

But IMO, this shooter didn't want to get caught, so meticulously planned it accordingly.

JMO

 

[MrsWatson]

@Cedars.

Random mass shooting is not off my list, either. In fact, if not some murky off-the-books conspiracy thing, I think random mass shooting at this stage is higher on the list than someone targeting the family or the biker.

 

[Kemug]

I've followed crime for a long, long time. This case remains one of the most mysterious. I think this may possibly never be solved. After this long, I don't think the police even have a solid idea of who was the target, let alone motive. All of the victim's lives have been dissected thoroughly, huge resources have been expended, and it doesn't seem any closer to being solved than in the beginning.

I'm not one for conspiracy theories, but this case does make make me wonder if there were other factors involved that will never come to light.

All MOO and pure speculation

Ah well, I do have a solid idea about who was the target, and what the motive was. But unfortunately my ideas change regularly.

 

[ZaZara]

Personally, I think what has not been discovered is significant - that is, any evidence that anyone could have planned /arranged / known that those specific victims would be at that location, at that time; as well as no discernable motive to target those victims. .

Random victim mass shootings are something we are very familiar with in the US: just look at other cases on this particular forum 'rampage killings and terrorist attacks'.

Sometimes the perp is suicidal and is therefore known. In other cases, surveillance cameras allow police to identify or track them as they flee the scene. Or the shooter keeps committing shootings and improves the chances of police figuring it out.

None of those things happened here: particularly, no cameras, no surviving witnesses, no repeated attacks.

However, this crime entirely fits the profile of a mass shooting, therefore the killer would probably fit the profile of a mass shooter: a loner with grievances against society, consumed with a desire to kill, wanting to terrorize the local community with an outbreak of extreme violence, and a love of guns.

Think of the Unibomber, the Las Vegas shooter, innumerable school shooters.

But IMO, this shooter didn't want to get caught, so meticulously planned it accordingly.

JMO

There are two surviving witnesses: the youngest daughter who saw nothing, and the elder daughter who testified that there was one shooter, she also gave a description of his skin tone and the type of clothing he was wearing.

Since it was also the eldest daughter who was given the choice of where the family was going that afternoon, it is hard to imagine how anyone could have known that the family would be there at that moment. The same applies to the cyclist, according to the investigating prosecutor at that time, he was at the location by mistake.

IMO, this is a very French crime. Just like the USA has school shootings, the French have these crimes where someone gets shot in nature for no apparent reason, other than perhaps wrong place, wrong time. The perpetrator disappears and is never heard of again. At least, that is how it used to be. Nowadays, LE has far more ways to investigate crimes, and to communicate about them and make comparisons and connections.

Maybe this sounds strange to someone from a different continent, but I do not think this crime is mysterious at all. It will be hard to find the shooter, but it is not impossible. Other than who did it, there is no great mystery here.

 

[Snoopster]

There are two surviving witnesses: the youngest daughter who saw nothing, and the elder daughter who testified that there was one shooter, she also gave a description of his skin tone and the type of clothing he was wearing.

Since it was also the eldest daughter who was given the choice of where the family was going that afternoon, it is hard to imagine how anyone could have known that the family would be there at that moment. The same applies to the cyclist, according to the investigating prosecutor at that time, he was at the location by mistake.

IMO, this is a very French crime. Just like the USA has school shootings, the French have these crimes where someone gets shot in nature for no apparent reason, other than perhaps wrong place, wrong time. The perpetrator disappears and is never heard of again. At least, that is how it used to be. Nowadays, LE has far more ways to investigate crimes, and to communicate about them and make comparisons and connections.

Maybe this sounds strange to someone from a different continent, but I do not think this crime is mysterious at all. It will be hard to find the shooter, but it is not impossible. Other than who did it, there is no great mystery here.

First, ZaZara, I want to thank you for your amazing coverage/support for this thread. You are amazing. I, and no doubt others, have benefited greatly from your insight.

Having said that, I will admit I am not from that culture and I might be reading things incorrectly. But, following Occam's Razor, I find it utterly astounding that the al-Hilli family arrived at 'just the right time' to be killed and Mollier arrived upon the scene. And lo and behold, Martin arrives only a couple of minutes later. EACH of these parties have political/scientific/military connections. I find that too difficult to overlook. This is the most amazing coincidence of all time.

Yes, these are wild speculations (and possibly incorrect speculations) from an old woman from a different culture, but that is how I am thinking right now.

 

[Lonicera]

Hello, I am French.
Alas, no news from the French side.
I think it was directed against Saad. Of course, that’s just my personal opinion.