GUILTY GA - Lauren Giddings, 27, Macon, 26 June 2011 #11

[SmoothOperator]

Thanks Oriah! That, too is what I understood.. That the remains(or parts of the remains) would had to have been in direct contact with the area that the dog alerts on..

And that the dogs use scent by the trace evidence if in the air.. To follow that and led to the actual spot that the remains came in direct contact with human remains..

So for instance in Stephen's case.. The dog picks up trace evidence odors leading the dog to the area of Stephen's front door, where the dog then alerts on an actual specific spot right at his front door.. This IMO would make sense if he has initially attacked her next door in her apt and then at some point he brings ATLEAST a portion of her remains(as we know she was dismembered) from her apt to his and therefor I find it likely that he could have set down the remains while getting into the front door of his apt.. It's likely whatever they were wrapped in contained human remains as well due to the dismemberment..*

So, the dog and it's handler after alerting at his front door they then enter to his apt to which they did not alert again until getting to the very back bedroom where the dog then alerted on a specific spot in that room.. Which makes sense again that once inside his apt he immediately takes the remains to his back bedroom and again they are set or laid down therefor the dog alerting on that particular spot.. The dog then alerted to the last spot in Stephens apt and that was his back bathroom, again making sense that whatever was done with those remains once they brought them into his home that they were kept and or manipulated in Stephens back bedroom and bathroom.. *So, IMO that would make sense with knowing how and to what the dogs actually will alert to..

I, too agree that in order for their to have been remains transferred from the initial place she was killed in her apt and transferred to another place via the shoes.. One woukd have had to have been present when the remains were present and the in the state of dismemberment with all of the tissue, matter, etc from the body..*

But Stephens claim of entering her apt after it having thoroughly been cleaned and scoured to the point that nothing even looked out of order.. That in walking into an apt that no longer has the presence of DNA, bodily fluids, and tissues out in the open.. In that situation as he describes of him briefly entering with the friends days after the murder, and after the entire clean up, his claim that he could still have transferred human remains on him from entering into her apt with friends innocently, HE WOULD NOT HAVE TRANSFERRED HUMAN REMAINS TO HIS APT FRONT DOOR AREA, BACK BEDROOM AND BATHROOM *THAT AN HDR DOG WOULD THEN ALERT ON THOSE AREAS.. that's just not possible..*

The only way those HDR dogs would alert in thise three separate areas in Stephen's apt is due to those areas coming in direct contact with the human remains or ATLEAST part of the human remains..

IMO just another desperate straw attempting to grasp at in his continued desperation of his whole
"perfect murder plan" blowing up right in his face..

 

[PsychoMom]

So, let me make sure I understand correctly. You are saying if a body was wrapped in plastic the entire time it was in a location, then removed, the dogs would not hit. Because the body itself has to come in contact with something in the location. Correct? That seems to be the gray area.

Examples for Oriah to answer.
A) Body A is murdered in a different location and wrapped in plastic fully. The wrapped body is transported to the killer's lair. He hides the body in a back closet for a day, never unwrapping the plastic. Then he disposes of the body in a 3rd location.
The dogs would not hit. Right?

B) Body B is murdered in a different location and wrapped in plastic fully. The wrapped body is transported to the killer's lair. He unwraps the body and bathes it in his bathtub, then rewraps it for transport. He disposes of the body in a 3rd location.
The dogs would hit on that. Right?

That might make it clearer what you mean by "deposit." You are meaning a physical something has to be there, whether it is blood or something else. Not just decomp odor where a body has been.

The diaper thing was just relaying a story the officers were telling me. They said the dogs hit on the diapers, and they were cadaver dogs. I don't know much more of the story. Don't shoot the messenger.

 

[Oriah]

Not shooting the messenger at all, PsychoMom! Just trying to explain.

Perhaps the HRD dog issue is best explained from a disaster dog standpoint.

Let's say there is a natural disaster, such as an earthquake- that produces a lot of rubble, waste, and trapped persons (alive, injured, and deceased- as well as a lot of decomp.)

Alive- and alive and injured- mean the same thing to a SAR dog, because it is live scent. So if there is a person trapped deep under rubble and bleeding profusely- it's a live alert. If there is a person deceased under rubble, there should be an HRD alert. Decomp of scent begins very quickly after death, and properly trained K9's can disinguish to alert.
An HRD dog should only alert on physical human remains of decomp. There's a lot of debris and other scents around that need to be distinguished from human remains.
These dogs are not tracking or trailing- but they are air scenting to narrow down the location of either the living person, or the human remains- then they will alert as close as they safely can, to the scent source.

Make sense?

 

[southern_comfort]

Not shooting the messenger at all, PsychoMom! Just trying to explain.

Perhaps the HRD dog issue is best explained from a disaster dog standpoint.

Let's say there is a natural disaster, such as an earthquake- that produces a lot of rubble, waste, and trapped persons (alive, injured, and deceased- as well as a lot of decomp.)

Alive- and alive and injured- mean the same thing to a SAR dog, because it is live scent. So if there is a person trapped deep under rubble and bleeding profusely- it's a live alert. If there is a person deceased under rubble, there should be an HRD alert. Decomp of scent begins very quickly after death, and properly trained K9's can disinguish.
An HRD dog should only alert on physical human remains of decomp. There's a lot of debris and other scents around that need to be distinguished from human remains.
These dogs are not tracking or trailing- but they are air scenting to narrow down the location of either the living person, or the human remains- then they will alert as close as they safely can, to the scent source.

Make sense?

So, could a dog sense decomp coming from within an area, behind a closed door? And would he then alert at the door?

 

[Oriah]

So, let me make sure I understand correctly. You are saying if a body was wrapped in plastic the entire time it was in a location, then removed, the dogs would not hit. Because the body itself has to come in contact with something in the location. Correct? That seems to be the gray area.

Examples for Oriah to answer.
A) Body A is murdered in a different location and wrapped in plastic fully. The wrapped body is transported to the killer's lair. He hides the body in a back closet for a day, never unwrapping the plastic. Then he disposes of the body in a 3rd location.
The dogs would not hit. Right?

B) Body B is murdered in a different location and wrapped in plastic fully. The wrapped body is transported to the killer's lair. He unwraps the body and bathes it in his bathtub, then rewraps it for transport. He disposes of the body in a 3rd location.
The dogs would hit on that. Right?

That might make it clearer what you mean by "deposit." You are meaning a physical something has to be there, whether it is blood or something else. Not just decomp odor where a body has been.

The diaper thing was just relaying a story the officers were telling me. They said the dogs hit on the diapers, and they were cadaver dogs. I don't know much more of the story. Don't shoot the messenger.

Sorry for the graphic here.
Please don't read if sensitive to the process of decomp.

Answers-
A: Likely incorrect, but possible. Most containment methods leak or leach human remains.
An HRD dog should hit on HR scent leaked or leached onto many surfaces that retain scent particles- such as carpet, fabric, furniture, absorbant stone, etc, because the scent particle remains.
It is not airborne scent.

B: Correct. An HRD dog should hit on multiple locations in this scenario.

 

[Oriah]

So, could a dog sense decomp coming from within an area, behind a closed door? And would he then alert at the door?

Yes.
If a door to a room in a home or business or whatever were closed, and on the other side of the door there were human remains- an HRD dog should first alert at the door. That is not because they are trailing or tracking- it's because they are close enough to the source of the scent they are looking for- but have encounted obstacles in alerting right at the source. If the door is opened for the dog, and remains are, say, at the opposite side of the room- the dog should alert again, right at the location of the remains.

 

[Wondergirl]

Bringing forward from last thread for Oriah (hope that's okay)

Questions for HRD Dog Experts:

1. Can human decomp be "transferred" onto an item it comes in contact with in passing? eg. A body was once on a floor. Someone removes body and cleans floor. A different person comes in and walks on the clean floor. Would the 2nd person's shoes have remnants of the decomp, from walking on the floor?

2. How much decomp is required to be on an item for the item to cause an HRD Dog to alert? Will a well trained dog alert on a minute amount?

3. If an HRD Dog alerts in one area, and runs to another, will they continue to run to every single area decomp has come into contact with?

4. What is the geographical radius that an HRD Dog will alert on, once it has picked up one alert?

5. What is the time frame that a decomp scent will remain detectable for?

6. Do bleach and other chemicals interfere with the HRD dogs ability to alert?

7. Will a K9 SAR dog alert, even if the missing person has not actually been in a room? For example, if the missing person A has been in contact while alive with person B, could enough of A's living scent, be transferred to person B, enough for the SAR dog to hit in B's apartment?

 

[Wondergirl]

Here is my summary of the known searches, links by Bessie and Backwoods. Added the confirmation of the dogs hitting in the laundry room.

1st Search: LE Requested

Villa Rica Based K9 Search; Thursday afternoon, June 30, 2011
(Torso discovered Thursday morning)

K9 Search and Rescue Specialists

http://www.k9sars.org/MoreDogs.html

-Dogs alerted in victim’s apartment, vacant apartment, suspect’s apartment and on concrete outside suspect’s apartment, and the laundry room, according to Commitment Hearing testimony by LE.

2nd Search: Volunteered Services to LE

Dooly County K-9's Search; July 7, 2011

-They searched the crime scene at Lauren's Apartment, in addition to other locations of interest, expanding outwards.

-Note: They did NOT search SM's apartment.

http://maconpolice.us/?p=942

3rd Search: Family Requested

Search Conducted by Fred Golba, K9 Investigator; Late July/Early August 2011
-His dogs are only people dogs, that's all they look for they're not multitaskers and Fred's a volunteer. Golba and his dog Rhino searched around Lauren's apartment on Georgia Avenue and at the Ocmulgee River.He believes the body parts were put in a trash bin at Mercer Law School, and Golba says commercial trash from there is taken to the Wolf Creek Landfill in Twiggs County.

http://macon.13wmaz.com/news/news/56213-lauren-giddings-family-continues-search-remains

 

[southern_comfort]

Yes.
If a door to a room in a home or business or whatever were closed, and on the other side of the door there were human remains- an HRD dog should first alert at the door. That is not because they are trailing or tracking- it's because they are close enough to the source of the scent they are looking for- but have encounted obstacles in alerting right at the source. If the door is opened for the dog, and remains are, say, at the opposite side of the room- the dog should alert again, right at the location of the remains.

That helps, thank you!

Now, let's say there are two adjacent apartments. The bathrooms are back-to-back against each other on an interior, shared wall (the apartments are like mirror images of each other). In one apartment, the victim is killed and her body is dismembered in the tub.

The dogs would certainly alert in the bathroom where the victim was dismembered. Is it likely the dogs could detect the decomp and alert in the adjacent bathroom also?

 

[tomkat]

Actually, I was thinking if the body were on a surface that is no longer there, such as plastic, would the scent still be there. If the body and the plastic barrier were no longer present, would there be a scent.

So, according to the cops, it depends. Big help guys! lol! If the dog is trained to hit scents, then it will hit scents and odor from the air. If it is trained to hit objects, it will only hit if there is some remaining particle of the body.

Interestingly, we had a case up here where a body was suspected of being in the water. The dogs kept hitting on one particular area over and over again. They found the body elsewhere, but where the dogs had been hitting, they found a bunch of discarded dirty diapers. The dogs hit on the odor of the diapers as something from a decomposing body. And those were most likely the same dogs from Villa Rica considering we are much closer to them than Macon is.

The officers also stated if the dogs were using scent to find the area of decomposition, the scent could travel into other areas based on the movement of the flow of air and other elements, such as humidity and temperature. Makes for some food for thought.

I think if it were in a tightly closed area, decomp is in the air, but not sure how you can keep something in a very small enclosed area (ieLtrunk of car, small bathroom) without it actually touching anything well unless it was just a body part. They do conduct air decomp and it can be tested from how I understand it.

Also, I think you are suggesting like passing through a room, for example, body in wheelbarrow, will the dogs hit? or a decomposed part being carried through an area in a bag, will the dogs hit on it.

My guess would be no unless it was tightly enclosed and there for a while otherwise these dogs might have no direction would they? I mean do the trainers guide them from one area to another and then let them sniff it out? If they hit on air or anything similar to decomp, they'd be psycho (lol) wouldnt' they?? I mean like the dumb scarecrow, "which way do I go, which way do I go?" What confusion that cuold be.

Which brings me to ask, then, How far off does the scent have to be in order for the dogs to be able to hit?

These trainers swear the dogs ONLY HIT ON DECOMPOSITION. Trash or rotting meat or anything else does not qualifty and I would guess that means soiled diapers. Something may put off Chloroform, as in Anthony case but not everything emits the smell of decomp.

On the other hand, it makes sense, as the excrement is coming from a body but they say that is a scent you will NOT CONFUSE with anything else (we humans anyway) and I've smelled dead animals before in passing and it didnt' smell like dirty diapers though I've not smelled dirty diapers left outside for weeks.

 

[tomkat]

That helps, thank you!

Now, let's say there are two adjacent apartments. The bathrooms are back-to-back against each other on an interior, shared wall (the apartments are like mirror images of each other). In one apartment, the victim is killed and her body is dismembered in the tub.

The dogs would certainly alert in the bathroom where the victim was dismembered. Is it likely the dogs could detect the decomp and alert in the adjacent bathroom also?

That's why an earlier thread was probably discussing the position of the bathrooms and I think it was determined that LG and SM were not back to back, though all the plumbing is shared at some point. but not in close proximity as in tubs side by side between a wall

That makes sense

 

[southern_comfort]

That's why an earlier thread was probably discussing the position of the bathrooms and I think it was determined that LG and SM were not back to back, though all the plumbing is shared at some point. but not in close proximity as in tubs side by side between a wall

That makes sense

I'll have to go back and read. I thought the apartments were mirror images.

 

[Oriah]

Bringing forward from last thread for Oriah (hope that's okay)

Questions for HRD Dog Experts:

1. Can human decomp be "transferred" onto an item it comes in contact with in passing? eg. A body was once on a floor. Someone removes body and cleans floor. A different person comes in and walks on the clean floor. Would the 2nd person's shoes have remnants of the decomp, from walking on the floor?

A: Possible, but variable. In that instance, a lot would depend on what was used to clean the floor, and what kind of shoes the person was wearing. And the amount of decomp present.

2. How much decomp is required to be on an item for the item to cause an HRD Dog to alert? Will a well trained dog alert on a minute amount?

A: It depends on the training the dog has had. Yes, a well-trained HRD dog can alert on a very small amount of decomp.

3. If an HRD Dog alerts in one area, and runs to another, will they continue to run to every single area decomp has come into contact with?

A: If there are multiple locations of decomp in an area, an HRD dog should alert on the closest and most dense particle scent they are exposed to. After alerting and being released by their handler, they should proceed to the next most dense scent area and alert. Repeat, until the dog stops alerting.

4. What is the geographical radius that an HRD Dog will alert on, once it has picked up one alert?

A: Not sure of the question?

5. What is the time frame that a decomp scent will remain detectable for?

A: Human remains go through many different stages of decomp- and decomp scent depend on a lot of variables (such as environment.) HRD dogs can be trained to distinguish many different 'aged' scents. So it depends on the dog, the scent training of the dog, and the circumstances of the remains detected.

6. Do bleach and other chemicals interfere with the HRD dogs ability to alert?

A: Sometimes. It depends upon the density of the scent particles deposited.

7. Will a K9 SAR dog alert, even if the missing person has not actually been in a room? For example, if the missing person A has been in contact while alive with person B, could enough of A's living scent, be transferred to person B, enough for the SAR dog to hit in B's apartment?

A: Not likely, unless there is a transfer of a scent article(s).

 

[Oriah]

Respectfully snipped for space:
<On the other hand, it makes sense, as the excrement is coming from a body but they say that is a scent you will NOT CONFUSE with anything else (we humans anyway) and I've smelled dead animals before in passing and it didnt' smell like dirty diapers though I've not smelled dirty diapers left outside for weeks.[/quote]>

To a properly trained HRD dog, human remains smell differently than animal remains, dirty diapers, rotten food, etc.
When working, they should ONLY alert on the actual deposit of physical particles of human remains.
That does not mean that they do not 'smell' decomp in the air or elsewhere. It is what they should alert on.

 

[PsychoMom]

Here is my summary of the known searches, links by Bessie and Backwoods. Added the confirmation of the dogs hitting in the laundry room.

1st Search: LE Requested

Villa Rica Based K9 Search; Thursday afternoon, June 30, 2011
(Torso discovered Thursday morning)

K9 Search and Rescue Specialists

http://www.k9sars.org/MoreDogs.html

-Dogs alerted in victim&#8217;s apartment, vacant apartment, suspect&#8217;s apartment and on concrete outside suspect&#8217;s apartment, and the laundry room, according to Commitment Hearing testimony by LE.

2nd Search: Volunteered Services to LE

Dooly County K-9's Search; July 7, 2011

-They searched the crime scene at Lauren's Apartment, in addition to other locations of interest, expanding outwards.

-Note: They did NOT search SM's apartment.

http://maconpolice.us/?p=942

3rd Search: Family Requested

Search Conducted by Fred Golba, K9 Investigator; Late July/Early August 2011
-His dogs are only people dogs, that's all they look for they're not multitaskers and Fred's a volunteer. Golba and his dog Rhino searched around Lauren's apartment on Georgia Avenue and at the Ocmulgee River.He believes the body parts were put in a trash bin at Mercer Law School, and Golba says commercial trash from there is taken to the Wolf Creek Landfill in Twiggs County.

http://macon.13wmaz.com/news/news/56213-lauren-giddings-family-continues-search-remains

BBM

If I am reading this right, they did not search McD's apartment with cadaver dogs. Just regular search dogs. Not that they are regular dogs, but they are not looking for dead bodies and are not trained to hit on decomposition. That is something important to think about. It would mean a link to a decomposing body was not found in his apartment. And it gives credence to the story of him tracking in her scent from her apartment.

Oriah, another question. See what you started. lol! Would a dog hit on a room where no body had been, but the room did share a vent with an adjacent room and a body had been in the other room? Thinking of in a house where the duct work is sometimes shared. If the decomp were in a bathroom, could the dog hit on the adjacent bedroom if they had a common vent?

Thanks for letting us pick your brain.

 

[PsychoMom]

Okay, reading some more. They do have a cadaver dog, but we don't know which dog was used, do we? Also, I have read repeatedly that it is not good to have a dog trained as both a rescue and a cadaver dog, but they have several. I can see how that might cause a problem on any search where that dog hit because he was trained to hit on living and dead. It could be very unclear which he was hitting on.

 

[bessie]

I'll have to go back and read. I thought the apartments were mirror images.

The layout of the bedrooms might differ from the drawing. Someone suggested they were not the same in each apartment, so I changed them a bit. The rest of the layout should be pretty accurate.

 

[Oriah]

<<Oriah, another question. See what you started. lol! Would a dog hit on a room where no body had been, but the room did share a vent with an adjacent room and a body had been in the other room? Thinking of in a house where the duct work is sometimes shared. If the decomp were in a bathroom, could the dog hit on the adjacent bedroom if they had a common vent?

Thanks for letting us pick your brain.[/quote]>>

I started this? Here I thought I was just making a public service announcement, lol!!

Not unless there are scent particles still there, being vented through.

Most would express interest, though.

 

[Oriah]

The layout of the bedrooms might differ from the drawing. Someone suggested they were not the same in each apartment, so I changed them a bit. The rest of the layout should be pretty accurate.

So it is likely the toilets share plumbing to sewer? And sinks and showers/tubs share plumbing from hot water heaters?

 

[southern_comfort]

So it is likely the toilets share plumbing to sewer? And sinks and showers/tubs share plumbing from hot water heaters?

I'll let someone else respond to this because it seems likely, but I'm not a plumber or in the construction biz. But, I want to reiterate, Oriah, that the apartment directly below the victim's is the third apartment where the dogs alerted. I would guess its layout is like the victim's apartment and that they would share plumbing.

I don't think we know exactly where in that apartment the dogs alerted, though.