GUILTY GA - Lauren Giddings, 27, Macon, 26 June 2011 #11

[bessie]

That was my thought, too, Sandstorm. Had the BH trash been hauled away before LE searched the premises again, SM would have no explaining to do - no body, no murder.

The trash pick up is one of the things I was referring to when I mentioned planning for contingencies. Since he left the torso in the can overnight, I think he was counting on the trash being picked up early.
His plan would have worked IF the truck had come on time. Were he really smart, he wouldn't have relied on the truck's schedule.

But, it's no over yet. Assuming that SM is the perp (IMO he is), I believe he's carefully planning his strategy, using Buford as his pawn, to outwit the DA. SM is trained in law, so he probably considers himself a member of the defense team. Already, he's tried to implicate other people - the MM and a running partner of Lauren's. The blue gloves in the laundry room were another ploy. I'm sure LE knows the difference between blood and paint - did they even need bother to send the gloves to a lab for testing? Once during New Year's, someone poured what appeared to be yellow paint on the hood of my car and on a neighbor's car. The temperature was below freezing, so the yellow substance was frozen onto the cars. I warmed up my car while I waited for LE. I don't remember if the officer touched the yellow substance, but I know he didn't send it to a lab for testing, and he didn't taste it or smell it, but he immediately knew, even in it's semi-solid state, that it was only mustard! Surely, LE recognizes blood by sight alone, whether it's fresh or dried, because their work and training familiarizes them with blood in various forms.

I do think SM was devastated when LE discovered LG's torso because he wanted to avoid suspicion altogether. But, I doubt he will readily confess. I'm surprised to learn that the tenant below LG was still in town because it does seem awfully brazen of SM to store items related to LG's murder there. But, he may have felt it better to have the deed discovered in someone else's apartment rather than his. He apparently has no problem framing innocent people to save himself because, IMO, he has no conscience.

Also, I wonder if the reason LE didn't search SM's apartment during the second search is that they felt confident with the evidence they collected there during the first search. Maybe they didn't even know what else to look for until testing of items from the first search was complete.

I've had blood on similar type gloves and other plastic, rubber, silicone surfaces. There's a definite visible difference between dried paint and dried (dehydrated) fat and protein based substances. The glove story is very sketchy imo.

As for why LE didn't search McD's apartment during the second search, I think you might be right.

 

[bessie]

Earlier in the case, I also thought that McD probably knew of the downstairs tenant's plans through conversations with his neighbors. But, now it seems that McD didn't talk much with his neighbors and fellow students. So, maybe his chattiness did increase as he formulated his scheme. Or, maybe McD was simply watching all of his neighbors to learn their routines, wanting to ensure there were no witnesses to his crime. If so, perhaps he hadn't seen the downstairs tenant for a while, so assumed it was safe to use the apartment to store incriminating evidence. And if the tenant did return, as I said in my above post, the evidence would implicate the other tenant - especially since he had moved many of his belongings from the apartment, suspicion would have fallen on him rather than on McD.

McD wasn't friendly, but I'm sure he was vigilant about his surroundings and the comings and goings of his neighbors. I think it's in his nature. We can even look at the condom thefts as an example. They were taken from units on the opposite side of the building. Yet, somehow he knew the neighbors would not walk in on him. If he was able to ascertain that information, then surely he could've known the downstairs neighbor's plans. I wonder how much he talked to BB.

 

[Indy Anna]

Have I missed or forgotten something?

It wasn't anyone specific. I don't know if I can find the article now, but - I think it may have been the TV interview on the day her torso was found - SM suggested that LG may have disappeared while running. When her running club was discussed in an earlier thread, people said that members of the club normally run in pairs. So, SM seemed to be directing suspicion toward a running partner. At least, that's how it seems to me and, IIRC, there were a few people on WS contemplating earlier the possibility that someone in LG's running club could be the perp.

 

[bessie]

I'm still holding to my thoughts that SM had no backup plan to frame anyone
should his 'missing person' plan fail. For one, to do so would be for him
to admit that his 'missing person' plan could fail, and I think he was too
arrogant to do this. Also, if this were the case, you would expect him to
have removed the other incriminating evidence from his own apartment.

Now, having said that, there is another scenario which could still be possible.
He may have planned to have LG go missing, then plant evidence before he left.
Then, weeks later, possibly drop an anonymous hint to LE which would lead to
the discovery of the planted evidence. Then, sit back and watch LE try to
convict someone with only the evidence he planted - and no body.
This could explain why he still had incriminating evidence in his apartment.

Although this scenario is possible, personally I find it risky and unlikely.
But, if LE actually finds LG's blood on that glove, I'll change my mind.

What about the blood left on the hacksaw? And the hacksaw placed back in the storage closet? If it was actually used in the crime, why not dispose of it?

I think your second scenario makes sense. Eliminating all evidence wouldn't have been any fun. As the gamemaster, he wanted to retain something he could use to taunt LE and retain control. That doesn't explain incriminating evidence, though. So was he sloppy, arrogant, panicked, or all three?

 

[bessie]

It wasn't anyone specific. I don't know if I can find the article now, but - I think it may have been the TV interview on the day her torso was found - SM suggested that LG may have disappeared while running. When her running club was discussed in an earlier thread, people said that members of the club normally run in pairs. So, SM seemed to be directing suspicion toward a running partner. At least, that's how it seems to me and, IIRC, there were a few people on WS contemplating earlier the possibility that someone in LG's running club could be the perp.

I agree. He didn't point the finger directly at anyone in the interview, but through subtle innuendos he suggested the running friends.

 

[~SuperSleuth~]

What about the blood left on the hacksaw? And the hacksaw placed back in the storage closet? If it was actually used in the crime, why not dispose of it?

I've made a few statements about the hacksaw, but I think this one covers my take on this.
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Found Deceased GA - Lauren Giddings, 27, Macon, 2011 June 27 - #10

I think your second scenario makes sense. Eliminating all evidence wouldn't have been any fun. As the gamemaster, he wanted to retain something he could use to taunt LE and retain control. That doesn't explain incriminating evidence, though. So was he sloppy, arrogant, panicked, or all three?

What I mean is that the hacksaw packaging, master key and/or LG's key, etc...
he could have planned to plant somewhere, but never got the chance.
Of course, I'm sure they found other evidence as well... but, if no torso had been found,
he would have been gone and none of that would have been found
I think it's quite possible that he had this planned very well, and if it weren't for LE
discovering the torso, he would be sitting somewhere right now quite proud of himself.

 

[bessie]

Gotcha! I think I missed that post. Makes sense.

 

[Indy Anna]

What about the blood left on the hacksaw? And the hacksaw placed back in the storage closet? If it was actually used in the crime, why not dispose of it?

I think your second scenario makes sense. Eliminating all evidence wouldn't have been any fun. As the gamemaster, he wanted to retain something he could use to taunt LE and retain control. That doesn't explain incriminating evidence, though. So was he sloppy, arrogant, panicked, or all three?

It seemed sloppy to me not to devise a backup plan, but now I'm more inclined to think that he got sloppy due to his arrogance in believing he could outwit LE. It's the idea that he wants to prove only to himself that he is smarter than anyone else. Again, his plan began to unravel when the torso was found. Had it not been found, I think just knowing for himself the presence of little bits of evidence strewn about would have given him a feeling of superiority.

I'm considering whether panic played a role in the breakdown of his scheme. Now I'm not sure he really had a purpose in keeping the torso for a few days, but I think it was just more difficult for him to dispose of covertly. Instead of risking getting caught hauling the torso over to the dumpsters at the law school, it was easier for him to place it in the trash bin just outside the apartment building during the night. But, he knew that trash pick-up day was Thursday and that the body would begin decomposing and reeking before then. So, he kept the torso refrigerated to delay the decomposition process until his final opportunity to dispose of it. I do think he realized he was in a race for time, but I think he was energized by that time constraint.

 

[southern_comfort]

It seemed sloppy to me not to devise a backup plan, but now I'm more inclined to think that he got sloppy due to his arrogance in believing he could outwit LE. It's the idea that he wants to prove only to himself that he is smarter than anyone else. Again, his plan began to unravel when the torso was found. Had it not been found, I think just knowing for himself the presence of little bits of evidence strewn about would have given him a feeling of superiority.

I'm considering whether panic played a role in the breakdown of his scheme. Now I'm not sure he really had a purpose in keeping the torso for a few days, but I think it was just more difficult for him to dispose of covertly. Instead of risking getting caught hauling the torso over to the dumpsters at the law school, it was easier for him to place it in the trash bin just outside the apartment building during the night. But, he knew that trash pick-up day was Thursday and that the body would begin decomposing and reeking before then. So, he kept the torso refrigerated to delay the decomposition process until his final opportunity to dispose of it. I do think he realized he was in a race for time, but I think he was energized by that time constraint.

In the plan you envision, where he purposefully places items items around to taunt others and allow himself opportunities to feel superior, what does the torso having been found matter? Discovery of a hacksaw with LG's blood on it seems to say, pretty clearly, "Murdered and dismembered". The torso seems almost redundant. Unless the torso carries evidence linking right back to him, why bother to hide it?

 

[Indy Anna]

In the plan you envision, where he purposefully places items items around to taunt others and allow himself opportunities to feel superior, what does the torso having been found matter? Discovery of a hacksaw with LG's blood on it seems to say, pretty clearly, "Murdered and dismembered". The torso seems almost redundant. Unless the torso carries evidence linking right back to him, why bother to hide it?

Had the torso never been discovered, would the hacksaw with the traces of blood have been found? Without a body or a body part, there would be no evidence that a crime had been committed, so there would be no murder investigation in which pieces of evidence would be found. There would only have been the mystery of LG's disappearance. That was likely McD's intention - an unsolvable mystery for LE, for Mercer, and for LG's family. Only McD, in that case, would be aware of the lingering bits of evidence such as the bloody hacksaw.

Maybe even without the torso the hacksaw would have been discovered with enough of LG's DNA (an attempt had been made to clean the hacksaw) to warrant a murder investigation, but I think McD envisioned the former scenario.

 

[southern_comfort]

Had the torso never been discovered, would the hacksaw with the traces of blood have been found? Without a body or a body part, there would be no evidence that a crime had been committed, so there would be no murder investigation in which pieces of evidence would be found. There would only have been the mystery of LG's disappearance. That was likely McD's intention - an unsolvable mystery for LE, for Mercer, and for LG's family. Only McD, in that case, would be aware of the lingering bits of evidence such as the bloody hacksaw.

Maybe even without the torso the hacksaw would have been discovered with enough of LG's DNA (an attempt had been made to clean the hacksaw) to warrant a murder investigation, but I think McD envisioned the former scenario.

I see what you mean. Maybe it would never have been found.

I originally imagined the saw to have just traces of LG's DNA between the teeth or wedged where the handle connects. But, it turns out that investigators could see the blood. The perp had to have known that dogs would hit on it. It seems like it was meant to be found.

 

[southern_comfort]

I don't know if I have seen it put like this before:

"A hacksaw was later found splattered with Giddings blood in a nearby laundry room."

Splattered? Wow... that certainly invokes some vivid images and makes me think even more that it had to have been intentionally planted. Did LE actually say it was splattered?

If it was intentionally planted, then the idea that the perp wanted people to think LG was just a missing person doesn't work so well for me.

 

[~SuperSleuth~]

Since much of what we discuss here revolves around "why SM would do something",
I wanted to point out that SM himself gave us a very important clue.
In one of his internet posts, he stated he took a Myers-Briggs questionnaire and was of the INTJ personality type.

This also corresponds to the fifth Enneagram personality type, the Investigator.
(This page has a brief, easy-to-read summary of this type, which I think fits him perfectly.)

Understanding the "type" of person SM was... what his basic desires and fears were,
what motivated him, etc... is really helpful when considering his various actions.

 

[~SuperSleuth~]

I don't know if I have seen it put like this before:

"A hacksaw was later found splattered with Giddings blood in a nearby laundry room."

Splattered? Wow... that certainly invokes some vivid images and makes me think even more that it had to have been intentionally planted. Did LE actually say it was splattered?

If it was intentionally planted, then the idea that the perp wanted people to think LG was just a missing person doesn't work so well for me.

I think this is just a case of a reporter trying to be sensational.
He's also incorrectly quoted SM and Patterson in this article.

As to the hacksaw, as I stated a few posts back and in other posts,
whether or not this was planted intentionally IMO depends on just how much blood stain was visible.
And, it's also possible that he only intended for LG to be a "missing person" long enough for him to move out.
So, there are still several possibilities here... unfortunately, we just don't have enough pieces to the puzzle.

 

[SmoothOperator]

Well then I say test it so there won't be any question as to what it is(the "blood" on the glove that is).. I think it's likely that this was LE thoughts as well about the new "REVELATION" of this defense private investigator moseying on in, 8 weeks later to BH apt complex and his great "find" that he came upon.. "thought" it to be blue gloves with blood stains on these gloves that he discovered In the key coded laundry room of the complex.. Yet this paid defense team investigator that shows up this late in the game, so to speak, discovers this major piece of evidence, literally within feet of where the bloody hacksaw was found Some 8*Weeks prior..

Yet, obviously it was not deemed important enough to ensure that it was properly collected, bagged, and tested, but rather just left there In the laundry room for any and all to further contaminate this huge of importance evidence.. But then come into a court of law and carelessly throw out there into the wind of the public and public opinion this*important piece of "overlooked" evidence by LE handling the case.. Throw it in the face of the lead detective with every intention to attempt to paint the picture of a "shoddy" investigation with lead cop not even having a clue as to this new bombshell evidence!!

Evidence that the truth of the matter is this.. There is zero proving or substantiating that this LE negligently overlooked and failed to discover and take into evidence for testing.. Zero that even yields half azz substantiation of this even being anything even remotely connected to the case, much less actual evidence connected to the crimes charged!! But rather we have the owner of BH apt complex making a Public statement that they are her nitrile gloves used in repairing, replacing, and repainting the apts in getting them ready for the newcoming tenants that were on their way.. Therefor the gloves not even being introduced into the picture until after the fact.. After the fact of the crimes committed, after the fact that the thorough investigation and collection of evidence related to those crimes had concluded..

So, IMO these were known by Buford, himself that they were not likely to be in any way related to the crimes.. He and his investigator did nothing to ensure this new "bombshell" evidence was properly Collected and tested, nor did they even bother to ask or even mention this "bombshell" to the owners, Marty or Boni.. Because if they had chosen to do the proper
Procedure or mention their find to the owners they would have very quickly and very easily learned that these were no way in hell related to the murder or any other crime, but rather belong to the owner, Boni and not even used until way after the murders and the investigation and collection of evidence by LE done of BH apt complex..

Why weren't these extremely easy steps followed
Where the bombshell gloves are concerned?? Because Buford, the highly intelligent, extremely experienced criminal defense Atty That he is knew that in all likelihood they were absolutely MEANINGLESS!!!!.. he full well knew this and that's why the decision was made to not do anything whatsoever to see this possible bombshell evidence was collected or tested and instead used in a very "frivolous" but yet highly "effective" way in the commitment hearing by throwing this info out into the wind to get a reaction from a lead cop and at the same time already planting the seeds of reasonable doubt into the publics' minds, period.. End of the subject!! The blue gloves purpose has been full well served!

And now of course, LE is going to go collect the "evidence" that God knows who and what could've been done to them or what they are tainted with at this point.. But nonetheless LE is going to make certain to tie up these loose ends that DT are attempting to leave untied to further their defense..

IMO EVERY SINGLE PERSON INVOLVED IN ANY WAY WITH THIS CASE, BOTH PROSECUTION AND DEFENSE, EVERYONE OF THEM KNOW FOR ABSOLUTE CERTAIN THAT THIS/THESE GLOVE(s) ARE ABSOLUTELY 100% NOT INVOLVED IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER WITH ANYTHING OR ANYONE THAT HAS EVEN AN INKLING TO DO WITH THE CASE!!!

LE is going to "do the right thing" and prove thru testing just how ridiculous this waste of time and money is in pointing out and bringing in Red Herrings already this early in the proceedings.. Pathetic IMO.. But I assume for the defense a purpose was served..

Let the testing be done so that we can move on to actual relevant and factual evidence and quit wasting time on the bs..jmo, tho!*

 

[bessie]

I think this is just a case of a reporter trying to be sensational.
He's also incorrectly quoted SM and Patterson in this article.

As to the hacksaw, as I stated a few posts back and in other posts,
whether or not this was planted intentionally IMO depends on just how much blood stain was visible.
And, it's also possible that he only intended for LG to be a "missing person" long enough for him to move out.
So, there are still several possibilities here... unfortunately, we just don't have enough pieces to the puzzle.

I'll take it a step further. Maybe he was going to wait awhile and then just before he moved out report to LE that his hacksaw was stolen. "See, officer, I still have the packaging, but no hacksaw." And then LE would be on the hunt for a hacksaw. Okay, I'm not really serious. But if he's as arrogant as he seems to be, who knows. We don't, that's for sure. For that matter, we don't know if he actually used the hacksaw.

 

[SmoothOperator]

Happy Labor Day
WEEKEND, FeLlOw SlEuThErS!!

:fireworks:

 

[tomkat]

That's why I sat on the fence for so long. Sm is obviously an intelligent person but, if he did it, made some really stupid decisions in the disposal of her body, leaving a hack saw and the packaging. For someone who theorized about the perfect murder for years I would have thought he would have had all the bases covered. If what we heard in the hearing is true, he cleaned up the forensic evidence from dismembering her, yet kept keys, torso and hack saw for days after, even after he knew the friends discovered her missing. Even TM talked about how intelligent SM is.

MAAYYBEE, the hacksaw was PLANTED, AFTER, the torso was discovered, hasty hasty, trying to quickly frame someone, and the packaging left in his apt unawares??

The torso was never supposed to be discovered. Hastily, plan B. That may have never been planned prior.

 

[Sandstorm]

Had the torso never been discovered, would the hacksaw with the traces of blood have been found? Without a body or a body part, there would be no evidence that a crime had been committed, so there would be no murder investigation in which pieces of evidence would be found. There would only have been the mystery of LG's disappearance. That was likely McD's intention - an unsolvable mystery for LE, for Mercer, and for LG's family. Only McD, in that case, would be aware of the lingering bits of evidence such as the bloody hacksaw.

Maybe even without the torso the hacksaw would have been discovered with enough of LG's DNA (an attempt had been made to clean the hacksaw) to warrant a murder investigation, but I think McD envisioned the former scenario.

Without the torso there would not have been a crime scene. Without a crime scene the GBI and FBI would most likely not have been involved at the Barristers Hall Apts. Most likely there would not have been any searches of McD's apt. so the master key, Lauren's key, hacksaw wrapper, would not have been discovered. McD would be a free man today. No crime scene, no crime. That was his agenda. IMO he put the hacksaw back in the maintenance room with full confidence that it would not be discovered. Why would it be of interest to anyone? Lauren would have been a missing person. There would not have been any reason for local LE to search and take the hacksaw. We now know the purpose of the hacksaw, and we still have difficulty grasping what actually happened at the crime. Check out this link below to another missing young lady and note there is no crime scene which determined the direction of that investigation. This would have been Lauren's case had Detective Patterson not discovered Lauren's body and had the trash truck arrived first. IMO this is precisely why McD was in shock when Michelle Quesada informed him that a body had been found.
I posted this link before but it is applicable to this post. So here it is again in case you have not read it.
Katelyn Markham Missing Ohio: 22-Year-Old College Student Disappears from Townhouse
Moreover, she left her purse and car keys behind. But when friends and family tried to call her phone, they found it turned off...Police don't seem to know what to make of her disappearance. There were no signs of a struggle at the home...
http://www.truecrimereport.com/2011/08/katelyn_markham_missing_ohio_2.php

 

[Knox]

Without the torso there would not have been a crime scene. Without a crime scene the GBI and FBI would most likely not have been involved at the Barristers Hall Apts. Most likely there would not have been any searches of McD's apt. so the master key, Lauren's key, hacksaw wrapper, would not have been discovered. McD would be a free man today. No crime scene, no crime. That was his agenda. IMO he put the hacksaw back in the maintenance room with full confidence that it would not be discovered. Why would it be of interest to anyone? Lauren would have been a missing person. There would not have been any reason for local LE to search and take the hacksaw. We now know the purpose of the hacksaw, and we still have difficulty grasping what actually happened at the crime. Check out this link below to another missing young lady and note there is no crime scene which determined the direction of that investigation. This would have been Lauren's case had Detective Patterson not discovered Lauren's body and had the trash truck arrived first. IMO this is precisely why McD was in shock when Michelle Quesada informed him that a body had been found.
I posted this link before but it is applicable to this post. So here it is again in case you have not read it.
Katelyn Markham Missing Ohio: 22-Year-Old College Student Disappears from Townhouse
Moreover, she left her purse and car keys behind. But when friends and family tried to call her phone, they found it turned off...Police don't seem to know what to make of her disappearance. There were no signs of a struggle at the home...
http://www.truecrimereport.com/2011/08/katelyn_markham_missing_ohio_2.php

BBM- Glenda told us McD bought a hacksaw to use on the pear tree back in the spring. Do you think after he was done with that hacksaw he gave it to BB, who then put it in the maintenance room for future use?