GA GA - Mary Shotwell Little, 25, Atlanta, 14 Oct 1965

[Fukiyama]

liz b.:

Go along with me here as I think this out...

If Mary was working for the new HR manager who was brought into investigate prostitution and she learned about such things through her work, how would that tie into receiving phone calls and roses from a Somebody?

She is either a girlfriend escaping from a Somebody or she's a secretary who has learned too much. It's just too hard for me to believe that she got tied up in this situation as /both/ a part of the ring and secretary of the investigating director.

Was she already working for HR when the new manager came in to investigate?

 

[liz b.]

liz b.:

Go along with me here as I think this out...

If Mary was working for the new HR manager who was brought into investigate prostitution and she learned about such things through her work, how would that tie into receiving phone calls and roses from a Somebody?

She is either a girlfriend escaping from a Somebody or she's a secretary who has learned too much. It's just too hard for me to believe that she got tied up in this situation as /both/ a part of the ring and secretary of the investigating director.

Was she already working for HR when the new manager came in to investigate?

I doubt she was involved personally in any prostitution goings on. And,that was only rumor,IIRC.

You know what's interesting ? She called an old High School friend out of the blue, and told her that she felt afraid.and especially afraid in her car.I don't know if the friend asked her why,but one would think so ? Shortly before she vanished. That phone call ? Co workers only recalled her talking on the phone. They never recalled being there when the phone actually rang... The flowers ? They were delivered to her home. I do not think she mentioned them at work ? I don't remember ever hearing that she did... They were sent from a florist close to her house... Not close to downtown or the bank..

According to the Charley project, she told her co workers she had "something very important to tell them " a day or so before she vanished. But,she refused to say what it was...

Several seasoned investigators believed she staged her own disappearance. What do you think ?

 

[Fukiyama]

So you're thinking she picked up the phone and faked it? She simply told others about getting flowers at home? She was calling old friends out of the blue and telling them stuff?

If the alleged report of the mother calling the cops a few years later and asking that the investigation be ended is true and add in the fact her husband wasn't all that broken up...

The one thing that bothers me about her car being found the next day and all the stuff in it... Blood smeared around, undergarments rolled up, sure. But why would there be a swatch of her hose cut out from the rest of the stocking with a knife? That is pretty odd.

I am still leaning towards her being murdered, but staging an abduction and disappearing fits about as well as any other scenario.

But that doesn't help us explain Diane (if she was actually involved in anything in the first place).

 

[liz b.]

So you're thinking she picked up the phone and faked it? She simply told others about getting flowers at home? She was calling old friends out of the blue and telling them stuff?

If the alleged report of the mother calling the cops a few years later and asking that the investigation be ended is true and add in the fact her husband wasn't all that broken up...

The one thing that bothers me about her car being found the next day and all the stuff in it... Blood smeared around, undergarments rolled up, sure. But why would there be a swatch of her hose cut out from the rest of the stocking with a knife? That is pretty odd.

I am still leaning towards her being murdered, but staging an abduction and disappearing fits about as well as any other scenario.

But that doesn't help us explain Diane (if she was actually involved in anything in the first place).

Regarding Diane, I think she was being truthful when she told her friend in Alabama that she was working with LE to try to find out what had happened to ML. I just do not know in what capacity. I doubt if LE would have had a young female civilian doing detective work in what looked like a possible murder case ? I doubt if LE just casually asked her to snoop around.

Is it possible she was employed by some LE agency ? It seems important that she had actually left C & S bank when she was killed.. MOO

 

[Fukiyama]

Regarding Diane, I think she was being truthful when she told her friend in Alabama that she was working with LE to try to find out what had happened to ML. I just do not know in what capacity. I doubt if LE would have had a young female civilian doing detective work in what looked like a possible murder case ? I doubt if LE just casually asked her to snoop around.

Is it possible she was employed by some LE agency ? It seems important that she had actually left C & S bank when she was killed.. MOO

Ahhhh! Her possible involvement with LE is something I did not know. Yeah, if she really did have some involvement with LE, I can only imagine it being answering questions and helping detectives decipher C&S stuff since she was the secretary. Maybe a younger detective chatted her up at some point for some unofficial exchanging of viewpoints on the case of Mary?

 

[TheBlackPumpkin]

Hi I am new and have been reading through this whole thread. It is a bizarre case! Anyway I can see alot of posters think the bank is the connection between Mary and Diane. But didn't they have some of the same roomates? What if that is the connection? Did any of these roomates of boyfriends? Maybe they became obsessed with Mary? Maybe later when Diane was investigating for LE or at least claiming to be, this person got wind of it through his gf who would have been Diane's friend? It would make sense then, as another poster said that she asked Isla, someone she was not close to to go to dinner with her, instead of one of her roomates and closer friends. It would also make sense as to why she did not got to stay with her former roomates when her husband was away and she was noted as being scared. She might have been creeped out by this guy already and perhaps even knew it was him whos ent her the flowers but did not want to tell her friend/former roomate that he was hitting on her?
My other thought, going in a whole other direction, is that the undergarments were placed in such a way to stage a sexual assault. But that like Diane, it was never about a sexual crime but silencing both girls which brings it back to the bank theory.
Just some thoughts from a newbie!

 

[Richard]

Hi I am new and have been reading through this whole thread. It is a bizarre case! Anyway I can see alot of posters think the bank is the connection between Mary and Diane. But didn't they have some of the same roomates? What if that is the connection? Did any of these roomates of boyfriends? Maybe they became obsessed with Mary? Maybe later when Diane was investigating for LE or at least claiming to be, this person got wind of it through his gf who would have been Diane's friend? It would make sense then, as another poster said that she asked Isla, someone she was not close to to go to dinner with her, instead of one of her roomates and closer friends. It would also make sense as to why she did not got to stay with her former roomates when her husband was away and she was noted as being scared. She might have been creeped out by this guy already and perhaps even knew it was him whos ent her the flowers but did not want to tell her friend/former roomate that he was hitting on her?
My other thought, going in a whole other direction, is that the undergarments were placed in such a way to stage a sexual assault. But that like Diane, it was never about a sexual crime but silencing both girls which brings it back to the bank theory.
Just some thoughts from a newbie!

Welcome! Thanks for your comments. It is always good to have new eyes and new thoughts on these very old cases.

 

[The Shoat]

Such an interesting case --- here are my thoughts
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I think that the killer was from Charlotte and the events were triggered by her wedding in Charlotte six weeks earlier.

1) Mary knew her killer, not as an old boyfriend, but as an unwelcome suitor from when she lived in Charlotte. He probably stalked her there, too. But, in a less threatening manner.

2) She leaves for Atlanta and, out of sight, out of mind. He probably moves on to his next obsession; or simply fantasizes about her.

3) She returns home to Charlotte for a lavish wedding on Labor Day, 1965. It's a small town, he bacame aware of it - and something just snapped.

4) From Labor Day to mid-October, he stalks and harrasses her; phone calls, flowers, probably followed her. She becomes more and more uneasy. Why she never mentions anyone's name, I don't know. It's odd she keeps it secret.

5) Around mid-October, he steals the license plate and enlists an accomplice in his plan. They probably used the accomplice's car, because he was probably stalking Mary with his own car.

6) He catches up with her at Lenox Square, probably has the accomplice make the approach. Overpowers her and drives the Comet to a dirt road and rapes and beats her. The accomplice follows in his car and let's not imagine what his role was.

7) Now, the accomplice returns the Comet because the killer wants it found. A way of telling her family, but especially her husband, that she's been taken. While I can see a sceanario, where the killer alone returns the Comet and drives out in his own car that he left parked there, I think it is unlikely.

8) Meanwhile the killer goes to Charlotte. They pay for the gas with Mary's Esso card because it's a power thing for him, plus he's not affluent.

9) They wait in Charlotte, probably someplace familiar for several hours. Poor Mary.

10) They rendevous in Raleigh with the accompice, buy some more gas, and finish it -- probably buried in woods around Raleigh.

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Takeaways -

The bank connection - it's just not as strong as the Charlotte one.
Husband Roy - probably was told by his lawyer not to cooperate with the police once they began casting suspicion on him.
The family asking to stop the inquiry - probably found out she was dead and were intimidated themselves. Not to mention painful, everytime she was in the news. (This probably applies to Roy as well)

I have strong suspicion both Roy and her parents knew who it might be and they were very intimidated. The accomplice indicates a person who had the means to take revenge even if he was jailed.

Just MOO

 

[reportertype]

I have one other possible scenario that I haven't seen yet on this thread.

Because Mary and Diane had many things in common, including roommates (thought not at the same time) I am wondering if they had a common circle of friends/acquaintances. Maybe someone they met through a roommate?

This person could be involved or responsible for Mary's disappearance. If he was stalking her, it would explain some of the strange things Mary said and did and had happen to her, and Mary may have willingly let him in her car or gotten into his.

Then Diane comes along and mentions, even in passing, her looking into Mary's disappearance. She may have known more than she realized. It could have spooked this guy, who then decided to get rid of Diane. This explains why the killings were so different. While Mary's was very well planned and calculated, Diane's appears to be more in line with someone who was angry with her.

Also, in regards to the confusion about Mary telling coworkers she had something to tell them, I believe that originates from the AJC story in 2004, and if memory serves, it states that Mary "hinted" that she had something to tell them, not that she went around stating it right out.

 

[Tarheel72]

Such an interesting case --- here are my thoughts
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Just MOO

Very interesting. Read my post on page 8, number 179. We have a great many similar ideas on this. Regardless, I think too much time has gone by and it is highly unlikely that we will ever know what happened to her. Only the discovery of some letter or a confession to a younger relative will resolve this case. Merry Christmas Mary. You deserved better and who knows what you might have accomplished.

 

[karefree]

I found some new (to me) information on the internet just recently. http://maryshotwelllittle.blogspot....ll-little-and-diane-shields.html#comment-form
and
http://www.sandiewebb.com/uploads/Textbook_cold_case.PDF

 

[Tarheel72]

I am pretty dumbfounded that no one has ever mentioned anything about this extensive jailhouse interview. Maybe I missed it but I have never seen a word about this. I find it pretty amazing that if all of this information was available that close to the time of the crime there would be no follow up investigation. At the least there would be some interviews with Redacted, Redacted and maybe even Redacted. Also I see no citation for the source of this jailhouse confession, yet it is presented in great detail. Where did this information come from? How was it obtained by the writer?

On the other hand, it was almost impossible to read. What's with all the "redacted" crap? If it is in a written report why not publish it as it is? Or did the surviving copy of the report look like that? I got the impression that the blogger did the redacting, and if that is the case the question is why?

 

[karefree]

The blogger is an attorney who has been working on the cold case for years. I believe she got access to the police file. This is just information that I gleaned from the blog I posted. I would think the names would not be made public to avoid legal charges but I have no
way of knowing that for a fact.

I was also very interested in the section of the book in the other link that was written by a friend an room mate of both Mary and Diane Shields. I would love to hear more from her and from the other room mates.

 

[karefree]

BTW, there is a Facebook page that the attorney is a member of that discusses the cases. A son of one of the police officers is a member there as well. The FB page is not as active as it once was but when new information is available, it is discussed there.

 

[CassP]

I read through all this thread (and related websites!) yesterday and just wanted to post a few thoughts:

I was really interested in the discussion about whether or not her underwear would be considered racy. Perhaps she was intending to meet someone?

Also, is there any reason (other than the woman who said a man approached her in the car park) why its assumed that Mary's assailant was waiting for her at the car? She could have driven from the car park herself and met someone willingly, or perhaps she was even flagged down and then knocked out when she stopped to help.

One of her former colleagues said that she and Isla, the woman she had dinner with, never really spoke much at work. I wonder why she asked to meet her that day of all days? No real theories about that, but it is curious.

The other thing I wonder about is whether the assumption that it was a man who was telephoning her / sending her flowers is correct. Rackley, her boss, was sent in by the bank to deal with a homosexuality scandal, and supposedly the place was rife with 'lesbian harassment'. (Does anyone have links to more info on that, btw?) Maybe that was why she was so reluctant to confide in anyone - shame / embarrassment, or even just not wanting the woman to lose her job over it.

If there was something to the confession linked further up this page, and her killers were paid to get rid of her, perhaps it was linked to that internal investigation at the bank. Maybe the lesbian angle was why her husband didn't seem as upset as it might be expected, given the attitudes of the day? Just thinking out loud...

One last thing, I was reading an article about Diane Shields' death in the new york times archive which says after a bit about Diane getting the mystery roses: "They quoted her employer as saying that other employees had also received flowers." If true, it seems to add weight to the idea that the stalker figure was a bank employee.

 

[Fukiyama]

I was really interested in the discussion about whether or not her underwear would be considered racy. Perhaps she was intending to meet someone?

It's been awhile since I've read through the thread. Could you point me to where this is discussed?

Also, is there any reason (other than the woman who said a man approached her in the car park) why its assumed that Mary's assailant was waiting for her at the car? She could have driven from the car park herself and met someone willingly, or perhaps she was even flagged down and then knocked out when she stopped to help.

An interesting question is how close to her original parking spot the car ended up. Was it put back at the exact spot where she had parked originally. Assuming the car was put back more or less where it had been, if she had left on her own and then been assaulted, how would her assailant known to take the car back to where she had been parked?

As for the rest, I really need to check out the links. I haven't ever gotten around to them.

 

[lamblisa]

I found some new (to me) information on the internet just recently. http://maryshotwelllittle.blogspot....ll-little-and-diane-shields.html#comment-form
and
http://www.sandiewebb.com/uploads/Textbook_cold_case.PDF

The story in the comments is really interesting, I only wish that instead of "(name redacted)" the commenter would have used initials or something else. There are so many instances of "(name redacted)" that it's really hard to follow which "(name redacted)" is which.

 

[Stella]

Why was Sandie Webb considered a suspect?

 

[eclipse827]

I haven't seen it mentioned yet that Mary's mother passed away in 2011. Here is a link to her obituary:
http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/gr...aspx?page=lifestory&pid=149016736#fbLoggedOut

Isn't it odd that Mary isn't mentioned?

Several of you have asked about the layout of the mall at that time:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-mWBumSNPU...9EHQaUyTs/s1600/03_Lenox+Square+plan_1959.jpg

Here is a photo:
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5883/1181/1600/Lenox Square, Atlanta GA c1960s.jpg

I believe the cafeteria was located on the plaza level, one floor down from the grocery store. In the photo, the grocery would be on the top left side.

The man who developed Lenox Square and who was in charge of it at the time is named Ed Noble. I have never seen him interviewed in association with this case. Initially, they would have been trying to protect any liability on their part, but he is in his 80s now and sold the mall many years ago. As I understand, he is still in the Atlanta area. Wonder if he would be willing to talk?

 

[chlban]

[

QUOTE=eclipse827;9853270]I haven't seen it mentioned yet that Mary's mother passed away in 2011. Here is a link to her obituary:
http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/gr...aspx?page=lifestory&pid=149016736#fbLoggedOut

Isn't it odd that Mary isn't mentioned?

Very Odd. It was also odd that the family requested the search be called off.

I am certainly not implying her mother was involved in her disappearance, but it is all very curious.