GA GA - Shirley, 87, & Russell Dermond, 88, Putnam County, 2 May 2014 - # 7

[mck16]

rsbm --

I'm sure that there were 'clues'/evidence. It may just not point to a particular person at this time, which doesn't mean it isn't useful for the investigation or prosecution.

Didn't Sills say he had hundreds of finger prints? Hair samples, etc. ty

 

[mck16]

This is what I am talking about. No one here but me. That's fine. Good nite all. Have a good nights sleep.

 

[Backwoods]

Here are some replies to my question from a few days ago about "why the weekend timing" of this crime (tried to quote them all, sorry if I missed any):

My theory (well, my favorite one) from the beginning has been that the perp. is a part-time resident of the lake area. There are many part-timers who work in Atlanta, Augusta, or elsewhere during the week and only come to the lake on week-ends or holidays. Or it could be that the perp.(s) have a 9-5 job closer to GW and committing the crime on the week-end allowed them to not miss any work. I think he (or she/they) could have been gone from the area before Mr. Dermond's body was found on Tuesday. Probably gone by Monday morning. Another idea is that the perp. may have been on a spring break type vacation (maybe a college student) and was leaving the lake area at the end of the week, perhaps Sunday afternoon. I believe the perp. is a long-term but part-time resident of the lake area.

Couldn't take off from work?

Still gotta pay the bills!

Interesting.

Other reasons;

Family gone for the weekend.
Opportunity knowing friends would be at the Derby party.
Lax security during a big weekend. More people less scrutiny by guards.
Money withdrawn on Friday might not be noticed til Monday.

Any others??? Just add them on!

Lots of these have to do with why the weekend might have "worked" with the "normal" schedule or circumstances of the perp/s.

What about the Dermonds' usual weekend routine? We really know very little about that. We know that THAT weekend, the Derby Party was on...but I wonder what a normal weekend was like for them? I think it has been stated in MSM that they usually attended church on Sundays. Did they have other activities they normally pursued, especially ones they pursued separately?

(If this had all happened during the first part of the week, say, Mon.-Wed., time frame...we might be theorizing something like: "Maybe the perp knew Shirley went to play bridge on Tuesdays -- so they moved in on Russell while she was away...but she got back early...etc." Because we know that she played bridge on Tuesdays.)

So -- back to the weekend. What if the "plan" was, say, to kidnap Shirley and communicate with Russell about ransom. It was said at one point that someone reported that they thought they saw Russell out walking on Friday (don't think it has ever been confirmed, though). What if that was his normal routine -- a walk in a specific time frame on Friday -- something routine enough that a perp who observed for a while might count on it. So...Russell goes for his walk; perp/s move in to take Shirley but before they can get away, Russell shows back up, earlier than expected. He stumbles right into the kidnapping -- he could likely identify them, or, at the very least, send someone after them very quickly. So he is shot or struck in the head. And then -- the plan gone awry and the perp/s agitated -- the beheading takes place ... either to make sure Russell is dead or because the perp/s is/are enraged that he "ruined" the carefully orchestrated (up to then) plan.

Perp/s take off, taking Shirley -- thinking maybe a ransom deal might still work, but changing that thought later.

Just one scenario ... but there might be others that could have been built around what weekend schedule S & R normally followed. Wish we knew a little more about that. (I'm sure LE probably does.) I don't think we even know, do we, if both Dermonds were still driving? (I know that Shirley normally caught a ride to the bridge games, but she might have still driven, at times.)

 

[Backwoods]

Not at all meaning to derail with O/T ... but I did want to make one post to thank all of you who visited the Carlene Tengelsen thread on the 21st (or later) and to make a couple of quick replies to those who posted replies to my appeal in this thread:

I hope so. That would be wonderful. Was she a relative or acquaintance of yours. A really sad case. Hoping for miracles. jmo

No, mck16, I didn't know or have any family connection to Carlene. Like a lot of WSers, I expect, I tend to look especially at cases in my general area (of Georgia), as Carlene's is. And for several reasons, Carlene's case has particularly "stuck with me".

BBM:


Thanks for the link Backwoods; I have saved the case and plan to look over the details. Why??? Well.... I was living in Macon, GA in 1972 and in fact lived in some apts a couple blocks from the shopping ctr mentioned - but not until 1973. Thanks for sharing and the heads-up.

Just as an additional note of interest... during my 4 years in Macon I visited often good friends who lived in the apt Lauren Giddings was living in. When I saw the LG murder case in June 2011 and saw where she and her sicko murderer lived... it was surprising.

JustyThoughts, I hope you do get a chance to read through Carlene's thread and maybe post there some. Someone who lived right in that area around that time could probably answer some questions that have come up from time to time.

Again, to all who visited, THANKS!

Carlene's thread: GA GA - Carlene Tengelsen, 16, Macon, 21 June 1972 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[Solitaryone]

I wish we knew why the killer took Mrs. Dermond's body and "placed' it in the lake. If Sheriff Sills can find out the answer to that, I think he'll have the killer(s). Why would the killer(s) not just leave Mrs. Dermond's body with Mr. Dermond's? The only reason I can think of is a failed extortion/ransom attempt.

Then there's the possible motive of who would benefit if Mrs. Dermond was not found.

Could the killer have not wanted anyone to know that he/they beat Mrs. Dermond to death, so they hid her body? Not that he/they felt guilty, because no way do I think he/they did. But maybe he/they didn't want everyone to know how vicious her murder was?

What other reasons could there be for hiding Mrs. Dermond's body? I hope we hear from Sheriff Sills soon!

 

[Suthrnqt]

O/T - Since this thread is viewed by so many, and especially so many from Georgia or with Georgia connections, I hope it will be OK, at this juncture when not too much visible (to us) is happening in the Dermonds' case, to appeal to WS posters and guests -- especially (though not only) those with Georgia connections, to take a moment to visit the WS Missing But Not Forgotten thread for Carlene Tengelsen.

Her thread is here: GA GA - Carlene Tengelsen, 16, Macon, 21 June 1972 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community



Today, June 21, marks 42 years since Carlene, 16 and recently having gotten her driver's license, went for her first solo drive in the family station wagon. She visited what was then Westgate Shopping Center in her family's town of Macon, GA, and was to pick her younger sister up from a camp in town a short time later. But she never arrived.

The car was found near Westgate, but Carlene was never seen nor heard from by her loving family again. Her case remains unsolved.

My hope is that, somehow, someone will visit her thread on this sad anniversary and take away something to share, to ponder, to talk about that will, by some avenue, lead to a clue or information that will solve the long-standing mystery of what happened to Carlene that long-ago summer day.

I probably won't be much help, but I will go and read. My Mom's name is Carlene. We are not from GA, though.

 

[2Hope4]

I keep thinking about when we bought this house. The prior owners were elderly. I figured they had been married many years, raised their family here, etc. BUT, when I was talking to them, they had only been married 5 yrs! The man inherited the house from his prior wife who had died with no will. They had been married about 7yrs!! So the couple that sold us this house, they never paid a penny for it!!! There was family of the deceased wife that was so upset, they broke into the house and stole most of the furniture and even the door bell chime off the wall!! Took all lightbulbs, the curtains, rugs, etc. All things that were suppose to stay with the house! At any rate, while talking to the prior owners about that incident, the wife revealed to me that she insisted on a will when she married and if anything happened to her, everything, including the home would have went to her only daughter!! His kids would get nothing! Granted all were adult kids and had homes of their own in different states, but, I guess she figured she was going to make sure her daughter was taken care of. BUT, likewise, if he passed first, everything went to his kids!!! Soooo, this house was sold, and the money divided between their estates. Was weird she even shared that.

How that ties into this case? Well, I'm not sure it does. But I'm thinking that the Dermonds COULD have separate wills, and that depending on which went first one who would inherit more. Of course they could have the exact same will stating equally divided among the kids, we don't know. Was the grandchild of the son that was killed included in the will? Would that grandchild inherit the deceased son's part? Or was it only among the living siblings? Don't know.

If it's a complete stranger, and their motive was to cause mass chaos, terror, and frustration, well, so far they've managed to do that.

I'm watching ID right now...shouldn't be because it's dark,and scary at night, but anyway, the case on tonight, so far 3 elderly women have been blungeoned and stabbed to death, and then raped. Nothing known stolen form any of the residences. One lady he thought was dead, was left alive, but she was blind, so couldn't identify the perp. He attacked a teenager 7yrs later, and her family walked into the house and caught him! It was a neighbor!!! He's motive?? Sex with the dead.... :thud:

 

[2Hope4]

And I see plenty of typos, misspellings, etc in that post...but I think you can figure out what I was saying.

 

[newone]

And I see plenty of typos, misspellings, etc in that post...but I think you can figure out what I was saying.

In reference to your post about separate wills etc. I remember a legal course from years ago wherein if both husband and wife die at the same time, it is usually deemed that the younger survived the elder. In other words estate passes first to the younger so that the younger's will would trump the older person's will.

Property would pass to the younger....and then it could be shared by the younger's beneficiaries.

 

[Foxfire]

http://onlineathens.com/stories/012509/new_381199608.shtml

Nuwaubian leader jailed, but the sect carries on
Not in Athens, though, as followers move
Posted: Sunday, January 25, 2009
By Joe Johnson

<sniped - read more - BBM for Focus>

Even before York was convicted, the Southern Poverty Law Center added the Nuwaubian nation to its list of hate groups because York preached black supremacy and hatred, according to Mark Potok, director of the SPLC's Intelligence Project.

Though the number of people who profess Nuwaubian beliefs has dwindled during the past five years, the group remains on the list.

"In the case of the Nuwaubians, they still clearly venerate York, whose ideology was black supremacist, that whites should be killed and they are the devils, and so on," Potok said.

"The Nuwaubians are a much smaller group now because a lot of people have left because of York's conviction and his treatment of the children," he said. "Those who have not left have not abandoned (York's) racist ideology."

Putnam County Sheriff Howard Sills, who began the investigation into reported child abuse at the group's Tama-Re compound near Eatonton in 2002, wonders if the Nuwaubian nation even is a viable entity anymore.

"Does it still exist as an organization? I really can't say," Sills said on Friday. "But I still receive calls from law enforcement agencies every couple of months wanting to know about the Nuwaubians."

 

[Carolinapeach]

I found the link you provided above, but it did not provide the info I was looking for or that I remember seeing. I don't think it was a notice by publication, but it might have been. It said who the executors were, and all debt should be directed to so and so (don't remember who). Do you know if the will has been probated? Do we know who inherited what, etc.? I guess I am morbidly curious, but I would really like to know.

thanks for your help.

This link?
http://www.georgiapublicnotice.com

 

[atthelake]

I need some help please. I know at one point we had a link for the Probate Cts. in Putnam County. It showed the executors of the estate, etc. I can't find it and I would like to see it again. I want to know if the Will has been executed, and also want to be able to follow along in the future.

Thanks if anyone has it. tia

Hey mck- The only reference I remember on the threads about this was this post which said that probate notices had been published and gave a link at the post http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10598884&postcount=90

cut/paste
"Probate notices have been published. It must be awful to have to go through this process for both parents at the same time.

http://georgiapublicnotice.com/"

HTH as I don't recall any other specific posts about the matter.

ETA: Direct links as it was reposted just yesterday at http://www.georgiapublicnotice.com/view/full_story/25334674/article-NOTICE-TO-DEBTORS--AND-CREDITORS-STATE-OF-GEORGIA-PUTNAM-COUNTY?phrase_match=dermond and http://www.georgiapublicnotice.com/view/full_story/25334672/article-NOTICE-TO-DEBTORS--AND-CREDITORS-STATE-OF-GEORGIA-PUTNAM-COUNTY?

ETA Second: Just cross posted with Carolinapeach, the OP on above link. :seeya:

 

[atthelake]

This was posted yesterday afternoon on another thread - just a heads up.

Kimster*Websleuths &#8207;@KimsterWS 2h
#websleuths moderators are practicing the new software that is about to be released to our members. It's not difficult to find your way!

 

[Cardinal47]

I understand what you are saying. I just think something happened at the dock. Mr. D was mad and it turned into something of total violence. He killed Mr. D. and then attacked Mrs. D. Took her in the boat and disposed of the body down river.

Not complicated, and not a lot of trouble. There was no monetary gain to this crime. They did not rummage the house. So what was the motive? Not a revenge killing. If revenge where is the message? It was a rage killing. No one heard anything because there is no one around. And it happened very quickly. This is just my theory. For this sweet family I can't buy into cults or targeted killing. No, just wrong place wrong time. jmo

BBM is perhaps where we disagree. I think this killing WAS a lot of trouble. You have headless Mr. in the garage with Sills saying he MIGHT have been killed elsewhere. So there was the movement from wherever he was killed to that garage. You have a head missing...who in a rage does that. Where was it taken? Will it appear later? Nobody knows what evil is left to be.

Then you have Mrs. taken by boat in the middle of the night five miles down the river to where she was found.

In my mind anger does not happen that way. If they did kill Mr. down by the dock it would have to be during the daylight hours because I am pretty sure the Dermonds did not travel down there in the dark.

I still say this was planned and they were targeted. For what reason I am at a dead end there.

 

[Litig8ter]

But I'm thinking that the Dermonds COULD have separate wills, and that depending on which went first one who would inherit more. Of course they could have the exact same will stating equally divided among the kids, we don't know. Was the grandchild of the son that was killed included in the will? Would that grandchild inherit the deceased son's part? Or was it only among the living siblings? Don't know.

The wills now should be a public record in the probate court (not sure the exact name in GA.) They will not be posted online. Anyone that wants to go look at them at the clerk's office should be able to unless the Dermond sons were able to get the probate court to seal them (not unheard of here in TN, but not normal).

The only way to tell about who is included and if anyone is excluded would be to read them. And keep in mind, there is evidence in deed records that the Dermonds had established revocable trusts. Whatever property they put into those trusts would pass according to the terms of the trust, which may or may not be the same as the wills. The trusts will never have to be made public.

And further keep in mind, the wills could be real simple... I leave $*advertiser censored* to my church, and the balance of my estate is left to my trust. We may never know the answers to your questions unless the manner of disposition upon death of the Dermonds' assets ultimately has ties to the case. IMO, there will be no ties when all is solved.

 

[Cardinal47]

I wish we knew why the killer took Mrs. Dermond's body and "placed' it in the lake. If Sheriff Sills can find out the answer to that, I think he'll have the killer(s). Why would the killer(s) not just leave Mrs. Dermond's body with Mr. Dermond's? The only reason I can think of is a failed extortion/ransom attempt.

Then there's the possible motive of who would benefit if Mrs. Dermond was not found.

Could the killer have not wanted anyone to know that he/they beat Mrs. Dermond to death, so they hid her body? Not that he/they felt guilty, because no way do I think he/they did. But maybe he/they didn't want everyone to know how vicious her murder was?

What other reasons could there be for hiding Mrs. Dermond's body? I hope we hear from Sheriff Sills soon!

It has always been my thought that the killer wanted Mrs. Dermonds body to be found.

I have said many times, thinking perhaps it is somebody from that lake, you don't bury a body where you and yours fish and swim. No way.

If they truly did not want her to be found and if they do live close by they would have driven her miles out of town.

Perhaps we just aren't getting the message. But hopefully SS has a pretty good idea by now. Fingers crossed.

 

[atthelake]

The wills now should be a public record in the probate court (not sure the exact name in GA.) They will not be posted online. Anyone that wants to go look at them at the clerk's office should be able to unless the Dermond sons were able to get the probate court to seal them (not unheard of here in TN, but not normal).

The only way to tell about who is included and if anyone is excluded would be to read them. And keep in mind, there is evidence in deed records that the Dermonds had established revocable trusts. Whatever property they put into those trusts would pass according to the terms of the trust, which may or may not be the same as the wills. The trusts will never have to be made public.

And further keep in mind, the wills could be real simple... I leave $*advertiser censored* to my church, and the balance of my estate is left to my trust. We may never know the answers to your questions unless the manner of disposition upon death of the Dermonds' assets ultimately has ties to the case. IMO, there will be no ties when all is solved.

Yep :moo: many that plan/are knowledgeable about laws and have holdings - most of estate is distributed to beneficiaries (not public information) or to trusts (not public information) :moo:

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

 

[nursebeeme]

excuse me folks: why are family members being discussed here? please :modstop: until or unless a family member is named by LE in relation to this crime.

 

[nursebeeme]

new thread: move over here:

Found Deceased GA - Shirley Dermond, 87, Russell Dermond, 88, Putnam County, 2-4 May 2014 #8 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community​