gaps in timeline

[luckyme]

weird! I saw last night on one of the HLN shows that police have him on video tape working at the construction site. I think it was jvm. I think they have ruled him out completely for some reason. I m not sure which show because jvm was on for two hours last night hers and nancys.ullhair:

 

[Cazzie]

I think it is fact that Deborah didn't drive, correct? That is why she had brother take her to the store around 5pm.

The neighbor can vouch for Deborah's whereabouts until later in the evening, right (around 9+pm?).

Assuming JI truly has an alibi for the hours preceding when he said he arrived home (at 4am?), if Deborah had disposed of Lisa somewhere, how did she do it by herself with no car? Better yet, how could she have done it so cleverly that the FBI, etc. can't find a trace of it? Is she so sinister that she could do this and then come home and pretend to be sleeping and innocent? Is she so sharp intellectually (I think not) that she wouldn't have been broken down in interrogation by now?

I just don't know, so I'm on the fence. The strange stealing baby story is too far fetched for me to believe too. I just do not think Deborah could do something with this child alone, and I think JI's alibi eliminates him from helping her. That leaves her brother, uncle, or another person that would help her. I would think that for 100k, even they would turn her in.

It is my understanding that Jeremy/Deborah have a car, which presumably was left at home when Jeremy went to work in his company van.

Just because she allegedly has no driver's license doesn't mean that she couldn't have driven their car (or any other vehicle), or had someone give her a ride in their vehicle.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Here is what he says verbatim:

" They keep bringing up, you know, that maybe it was an accident, maybe you did it during the 2 hours you were home and she found out about it later. "

Surely LE doesn't mean that this accident might have occurred prior to JI going to work, and DB having found about it then. They have video of a smiling DB and her little brother practically skipping into the grocery to store to buy wine at 5:00 pm. We also know that the neighbor was there from sometime in the early evening to 10:30 at night. Stretches the imagination to think LE might believe a terrible accident occurred at the hands of JI prior to 5:20 (when he supposedly went to work), and Debbie and the neighbor just party hearty. Neighbor suspects nothing? Uh uh. He's talking about AFTER he returned home from work...guarantee it.

Now, if you look at the time the dumpster fire was reported, that was called in at 2:19 (I think). So...if Jeremy Irwin was home for 2 hours before the 911 call was made...

 

[Wise Old Owl]

Here is what he says verbatim:

" They keep bringing up, you know, that maybe it was an accident, maybe you did it during the 2 hours you were home and she found out about it later. "

Surely LE doesn't mean that this accident might have occurred prior to JI going to work, and DB having found about it then. They have video of a smiling DB and her little brother practically skipping into the grocery to store to buy wine at 5:00 pm. We also know that the neighbor was there from sometime in the early evening to 10:30 at night. Stretches the imagination to think LE might believe a terrible accident occurred at the hands of JI prior to 5:20 (when he supposedly went to work), and Debbie and the neighbor just party hearty. Neighbor suspects nothing? Uh uh. He's talking about AFTER he returned home from work...guarantee it.

Now, if you look at the time the dumpster fire was reported, that was called in at 2:19 (I think). So...if Jeremy Irwin was home for 2 hours before the 911 call was made...

Good point. But, look at the "she found out about it later". The "later" would tend to lead you to earlier in the day. It has happened where babies are hurt and not show serious signs until hours later. Internal injuries and all - ya know?

But that still doesn't fit because we have DB saying yesterday that she did go in to check on her once and found her standing in her crib. If something had happened to her ealier - she wouldn't have been able to stand.

Its the "2 hours home" that is the odd duck words here.

I would personally like to know what the whole fam damily did for that day. From 8 AM on. The boys attend school. Breakfast? What the 6 hours or so while the boys are at school - what did DB and Lisa do? Lunch? Did Lisa take a nap that afternoon? That maybe why DB put her down so early - I know when mine were that young, if they didn't get an afternoon nap for whatever reason - they went to bed earlier that night.

Wishful thinking that we'll get a detailed timeline from the family for that entire day though.

 

[LCoastMom]

I think it is fact that Deborah didn't drive, correct? That is why she had brother take her to the store around 5pm.

The neighbor can vouch for Deborah's whereabouts until later in the evening, right (around 9+pm?).

Assuming JI truly has an alibi for the hours preceding when he said he arrived home (at 4am?), if Deborah had disposed of Lisa somewhere, how did she do it by herself with no car? Better yet, how could she have done it so cleverly that the FBI, etc. can't find a trace of it? Is she so sinister that she could do this and then come home and pretend to be sleeping and innocent? Is she so sharp intellectually (I think not) that she wouldn't have been broken down in interrogation by now?

I just don't know, so I'm on the fence. The strange stealing baby story is too far fetched for me to believe too. I just do not think Deborah could do something with this child alone, and I think JI's alibi eliminates him from helping her. That leaves her brother, uncle, or another person that would help her. I would think that for 100k, even they would turn her in.

I'm not comparing the two cases but look no further than KC Anthony (and so very many others), yes some women lie and it doesn't take a lot of smarts. In the same case Caylee was right down the street from where she was last seen for months - LE, FBI, PI's and professional search teams all missed her.

Strange baby stealing story (which has on occasion happened before) where mom was so intoxicated that she doesn't remember whether or not she checked on her baby (who wasn't feeling well) and the ever changing details of what happened that night...I'm on that fence with you, barely, trying to keep an open mind but I'm dangling so far into the mom did it or knows what happened that a slight breeze is going to push me right off.

 

[LCoastMom]

Detective Klimpt:

:welcome5:​

 

[toodles11]

Here is what he says verbatim:

" They keep bringing up, you know, that maybe it was an accident, maybe you did it during the 2 hours you were home and she found out about it later. "

Surely LE doesn't mean that this accident might have occurred prior to JI going to work, and DB having found about it then. They have video of a smiling DB and her little brother practically skipping into the grocery to store to buy wine at 5:00 pm. We also know that the neighbor was there from sometime in the early evening to 10:30 at night. Stretches the imagination to think LE might believe a terrible accident occurred at the hands of JI prior to 5:20 (when he supposedly went to work), and Debbie and the neighbor just party hearty. Neighbor suspects nothing? Uh uh. He's talking about AFTER he returned home from work...guarantee it.

Now, if you look at the time the dumpster fire was reported, that was called in at 2:19 (I think). So...if Jeremy Irwin was home for 2 hours before the 911 call was made...

New here... this case has convinced me to come out of lurkdom... :seeya:

This scenario is a good one. Maybe they were suggesting (if DB was passed out drunk) that JI came home, did something with Lisa & left to dispose body, came back home at the 330-4am mark and woke up DB and that's where they're suggesting "she found out about it later". JI is really starting to set off my hinky meter.

And I don't think the lack of bedtime routine is any indication of anything. My house doesn't have a traditional bedtime routine but there is a set bedtime, there's just not always the bath/read a book/bed schedule followed that many people seem to assume happens in all homes with young children. Also, I think it's perfectly normal for infants/toddlers to wear "daytime clothes" to bed. Infant clothing & pajamas are basically the same materials and cuts, unless you're talking footed pajamas so I don't think that detail is of any significance. Some people may not see the need to spend the extra money on specific pajamas when infant daytime clothes are just as comfy for the little ones to sleep in. Not trying to defend DB on this one, it's JMO.

I do find Lisa's bedtime particularly early, considering the older kids are up until 1030. It's one thing to put a baby down and have them play around in their crib for a little while but if after an hour that baby is still awake enough to be standing up, I think it would be safe to assume that it was too early to lay her down.

 

[jacy]

I do find Lisa's bedtime particularly early, considering the older kids are up until 1030. It's one thing to put a baby down and have them play around in their crib for a little while but if after an hour that baby is still awake enough to be standing up, I think it would be safe to assume that it was too early to lay her down.

-yes, I snipped a bit


Picturing her toddling around her crib is getting to my heart. When my kids were that age we had no regular schedule (ok, by number 3 we did!). But in our case that led to later bedtimes, more likely baby falling asleep on daddy's chest in the living room, etc. NOT putting a little one down that early. JMO but that sounds more like convenience vs bedtime needs.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Not sure where to put this, but in my mind it helps to establish timeline so I'm sticking it here.

In the grocery store video, we see Debbie wearing black capri pants, a grey T-shirt that looks like it says "d-unk", and tennis shoes.

This video was taken early that morning, and it looks like Debbie is wearing jeans and a red sweatshirt.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Xdu-BA6Gf8"]Hours After Amber Alert, Still No Sign Of Baby - YouTube[/ame]

So I'm wondering a few things here:

1. Did Debbie change her clothes before going to bed that night?
2. Have detectives recovered the clothes we saw her wearing when she went into the grocery store?
3. And if they haven't recovered those clothes, could these items be the burnt articles of clothing that Debbie says police showed her?

(Tip of the hat to Kamille for causing me to look at the clothing she was wearing in the grocery store.)

 

[yllek]

Here's an update based on what we know to date. This is based on all known interviews as of 10.24.2011 p.m., to the best of my ability. I can put pieces together a lot better with a linear picture; just a working time line/tool.

Sunday, Oct 2: Unknown time
Lisa attends a birthday party with her family; party held at extended family member's house.

Sunday, Oct 2 after party to Monday, Oct 3 at 4:47 pm
GAP - NO KNOWN ACTIVITY; NO INFORMATION PROVIDED.

Monday, Oct 3: 4:47 pm
Debbi and her 20 year old brother purchase baby food, baby wipes, and a box of wine at the Fesitival Foods. Jeremy is said to be at home with the children.

Monday, Oct 3: 5:20 pm
Jeremy goes to his second job of the day, he has been home for two hours prior to departing. It's his first ever night shift and it's at a nearby Starbuck's.

Monday, Oct 3: 5:30 pm
Debbi is reportedly cooking a chicken dinner for the neighbor lady and her daughter, along with Debbi's sons. Lisa not mentioned. Not mentioned whether the neighbor and daughter are present during the cooking or if they come over later.

Monday, Oct 3: 6:40 pm
Debbi reportedly puts fussy Lisa to bed. It is not mentioned that the neighbor or the other children saw Lisa. We don't know where Lisa was prior to being put to bed by Debbi.

Monday, Oct 3: sometime shortly after 6:40 pm
Debbi reportedly looks in on Lisa, Lisa is standing in her crib, Debbi lays her back down. This is the last time Lisa Irwin is seen.

Monday, Oct 3: 6:40 pm until 10:30 or 11:00 pm

• Debbi and the neighbor sit out on Debbi's front stoop drinking wine.
• Debbi's 6 year old son and Jeremy's 8 year old son and the neighbor's 4 year old daughter watch a movie in the boys' room (with bunk beds) while the moms are having "grown up time".
• Debbi reportedly gets drunk; possibly enough to black out.
• No mention of any of the children during this time frame. No mention of anyone else coming by the house. No mention of either Debbi or the neighbor leaving the house.
  *Somehow Debbi acquires a stray kitten during this time.

Monday, Oct 3: 10:00 pm
Jeremy is expected to arrive home from the Starbuck's job. He does not come home. He does not call Debbi or anyone to let Debbi know that he will be more than 5 hours late from his first ever night shift.​

Monday, Oct 3: 10:30 or 11:00 pm

• The grown up time comes to an end.
• Presumably, the neighbor takes her daughter home.
• Possibly Debbi is asked if both boys can sleep in her room.
• Debbi thinks she turned off all of the lights (later says her drinking buddy neighbor told her so, (they have a code according to Debbi's laywer).
• Debbi leaves a window open in the computer room.
• Debbi doesn't know if she locked the front door or not.

Monday, Oct 3: 11:00 pmish to Tuesday, Oct 4: 3:45 am
GAP - NO KNOWN ACTIVITY; NO INFORMATION PROVIDED
Debbi does not remember; possible she blacked out. Debbi has not been quoted as saying she was asleep the whole time. She has not been quoted as saying she was not asleep the whole time.

Tuesday, Oct 4: 3:45 am
Jeremy arrives home, 5 hours and 45 minutes past the time expected.
He finds door unlocked, computer window open, screen tampered, all the lights on, Debbi in bed with her six year old and the stray kitten, his 8 year old presumably in his own bed, Lisa's light on and her door open (doors said to always be closed at night), LISA FOUND TO BE MISSING FROM HER CRIB

Tuesday, Oct 4: between 3:45 am and 4:08 am

• After some activity (too unclear as to what Jeremy and Debbi did and said first), the parents notice that 3 cell phones are missing from the counter in the kitchen.
• The boys are awakened in the confusion and are screaming for Pumpkin.
• Jeremy runs to the neighbor across the street and pounds on doors - "has anyone seen Lisa?". Or, Jeremy discovers work cell in pocket and then they look around outside and call 911. Or, Jeremy looks outside but Debbi won't go out back because she's afraid of what she might find. This time frame is unclear; too many sequence changes from parents to pin it down thus far.

Tuesday, Oct 4: 4:08 pm
Jeremy Irwin calls 911, presumably from his work cell phone which he found in his pocket. LE arrives shortly thereafter and an Amber Alert is issued for Lisa Irwin on the morning of Tuesday, Oct. 4, 2011.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If anyone notices any errors, please post and I will make corrections.

If we learn more about any activity to fill in the current gaps, I'll plug them in and post update in this thread.

 

[w1df10wr]

Not sure where to put this, but in my mind it helps to establish timeline so I'm sticking it here.

In the grocery store video, we see Debbie wearing black capri pants, a grey T-shirt that looks like it says "d-unk", and tennis shoes.

This video was taken early that morning, and it looks like Debbie is wearing jeans and a red sweatshirt.

Hours After Amber Alert, Still No Sign Of Baby - YouTube

So I'm wondering a few things here:

1. Did Debbie change her clothes before going to bed that night?
2. Have detectives recovered the clothes we saw her wearing when she went into the grocery store?
3. And if they haven't recovered those clothes, could these items be the burnt articles of clothing that Debbie says police showed her?

(Tip of the hat to Kamille for causing me to look at the clothing she was wearing in the grocery store.)

Great questions MK!

 

[Dee10]

I wonder if Lisa was fed supper? We know she bought baby food that, but there is no mention of feeding her only a bottle later on. I wonder if the dishes were done after supper? I wonder if LE can determine how many bottles or was she fed breakfast, lunch & dinner that day? Should be some empty baby food jars in the recycle bin or trash.

 

[panthera]

6:40pm "fussy baby" in crib; shortly thereafter "fussy baby" falls asleep for the rest of the night? She doesn't wake up needing a diaper change or hungry and start crying? No one checks on her? Huge red flag here!

JI arriving home more than five hours after expected time, with no phone call or contact with DB that he would be late, raises no concern with DB, or is that why she contends she was possibly "blacked out" because it appears unbelievable?

:waitasec:

MOO

 

[matou]

The new timeline has JI home at 3:30. So it takes a certain amount of time before he realizes Lisa isn`t there and runs to the neighbor`s, etc. 911 call at 4:08?

http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/nation...nce-of-baby-lisa-irwin,-according-to-a-source

3:30 a.m.
-Jeremy Irwin returns home from work.
-Irwin is angered to see lights on and a window screen damaged, but doesn’t immediately notice Baby Lisa is missing.
-A stray cat was sleeping on their bed.
-Facing financial concerns and concerned about electricity bills, he awakens Deborah Bradley to ask why lights are on.
-Deborah Bradley is groggy.
-Irwin checks on Baby Lisa, finding her missing.
-Irwin runs next door, banging on neighbors door, asking if Lisa is there.
-Irwin noticed the family cell phones were missing and called police from his work mobile phone
-Irwin and Bradley grab a flashlight and begin what has now become a month-long search.

I wonder where Bradley searched with this flashlight? I don`t think she actually did any searching at all. I haven`t heard anything really about them searching outside that night. If DB was so drunk, how could she be useful at all after passing out at only 10:30 pm or 5 and 1/2 hours later?

 

[gluestk]

yllek,
Great timeline. It's interesting to see that info on one page nice and neat. ty

 

[w1df10wr]

Can someone please post the link about the phone call time changing?
Thank you!

 

[ynotdivein]

Please continue discussing timeline gaps here:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154221"]11/9/11 MSM reports "major change" to timeline (Oct. 4 call)[/ame]