Head injury vs. strangulation ***WARNING! AUTOPSY PHOTOS!***

[Britt]

With the head blow coming first...then the killer would have to have been in a rage...impulsively picking up the first weapon they see (flashlight) and striking her.

With the strangulation first...then the killer was playing some type of sex game with no intention of real harm.

Or the perp grabbed JB by the neck (and/or clothing in the neck area) in a rage attack of which the head blow was a part... followed by the final garrote strangulation. IMO initial choking, before head injury, doesn't mean it wasn't a spontaneous attack.

 

[BlueCrab]

I disagree...if Meyer thought they were consistant with stun gun injuries he would be legally compelled to add an amendment to the autopsy report and correcting the marks from "abrasions" to "burns".

They were not burns and he has made this very clear on numerous occassions.
He was NOT a "board certified forensic pathologist" at the time he examined JonBenet.

Seeker,

Page 431, PMPT pb:

"When they had gathered sufficient information, Ainsworth, Pete Hofstrom, Trip DeMuth, and Detective Sergeant Wickman met with the coroner, John Meyer. After reviewing the photos and this new information, Meyer concluded that the injuries on JonBenet's face and back were, in fact, consistent with those produced by a stun gun."

BlueCrab

 

[Charlie]

The only board certified forensic pathologist who examined the marks on JonBenet in person, Dr. John Meyer, has stated the marks are consistent with stun gun injuries. All other medical experts, except Werner Spitz, agree the marks are consistent with stun gun injuries. Spitz is winging it because all he has seen are the crime scene photos of the marks, so how does he know if the marks are stun gun burns or abrasions from pebbles or snaps? He doesn't.

I'll go with the the only expert who examined JonBenet's injuries in person, John Meyer, and most of the other experts, and say JonBenet was likely stungunned.

BlueCrab

BC what kind of reasoning is that of only believing the person who viewed the injuries in person...this is the man that contaminated JBRs fingernail samples by using the same nail cutter. I would base my belief on the majority of what the experts say...if someone could post what docs were brought in on the stun gun theory and who said what please?

BC, why do u dismiss Spitz so quickly?

 

[narlacat]

It is extremely important which came first...the head blow or strangulation.

With the head blow coming first...then the killer would have to have been in a rage...impulsively picking up the first weapon they see (flashlight) and striking her.

With the strangulation first...then the killer was playing some type of sex game with no intention of real harm.

And if the strangulation made JonBenet lose conciousness...then why strike an unconcious little girl over the head?

To make sure she was dead.

 

[Becba]

The blow was to make sure she was dead or because someone thought she was dead.

Cyril Wechts idea of things was the cords pinched the nerve and stopped her heart and breathing, she appeared dead, she had signs of being shaken, the person shook her in dis belief that she was dead. They'd done it before and felt it safe. They shook the heck out of her in an attempt to get a response.
At that time one of two things happened. Hit her purporsly or complete stranging.
Anger would make you hit her. It would allow you to hide from your sick sexual play.
A person in the house hearing the scream may have come up on them, This peson would want tofight off an attacker, likely thinking there was none because the sounds were normal to the house,
Patsy comes upon JR or BR choking or shaking JBR. Jonbenet is her little girl and she strikes out at the molestor. Yet her strike from a golf club only hits her own child.
She hugs her close in her clothing from that night. She hates her husband, he was having sex with JBR and she did not know.
Now she has hither child she wanted to defend, She has kiklled her child.
Perhaps she killed her child or perhaos she stumbled into the killing of her child,
Now the world will know Mr Ramsey has dallied with JBR and they will know Patsy accindently killed her beloved child. Mr Ramsey say write a letter and Patsy does.

 

[Shelayne]

One scenerio Cyrl had was she was being molested by John or Burke and Patsy walk in on this. In her attempt to get John or Burke off JonBenet, she accidlently clubs her own child she was hoping to defend.

Now she has moved from defender to accidental murder and crime witness. To save her and John or Burke from parts in the crime the stage a cover up.

Husband is caught molesting his little girl...

If I came upon that kind of nightmare scenario, I would NEVER vouch for my husband--even if I accidentally hit my child instead of him. No way. No how. After accidentally hitting her, I would call 911 immediately, completely freaking out, no doubt. I doubt he wanted to kill her, so he would be beside himself in horror as well. I wouldn't be able to write a 3 page ransom letter--I would be a flipping wreck! I just found my husband playing sex games with my little girl and then ACCIDENTALLY cracked her skull, she's dead--now you expect me to WRITE?? I probably can't even TALK! You would hear me wailing all through the neighborhood. There is no way you could get me drunk, stoned, or whacked enough to stage (much less participate in) a sexually sadistic crime scene with my precious baby. Then I see him carrying my darling into the livingroom, dead, and you think I'm not going to rip her out of his arms because HE KILLED MY CHILD? Furthermore, you can be certain, you would NEVER see me sitting next to that man, acting as a bereaved, yet loving wife and mother. I would despise him. He would be dead to me. It would be so obvious, everyone would know it.

That is my thinking about Mr. Wecht's possible theory involving John as the perp.

Now if it was Burke, I doubt she would have tried to hit him with any kind of club or bat; she would likely have pulled him away from her, screaming, "WHAT ARE YOU DOING?" The part about swinging at her 9-year-old boy doesn't ring true to me. So now we have a little girl with no head injury--could I revive her from the asphyxiation? I surely would have done everything in my power to get her to breathe. Whacking her probably would not serve that purpose. And you still cannot get me to stage that kind of a sick crime scene with my baby girl. Additionally, I am still a basket case, unable to utter complete sentences, surely unable to write them. No can do. At this point, sign me up, bring on the little white truck...she's goin' down....

 

[Dark Shadows]

Oh my - this gets more confusing by the day. :crazy: Shelayne I agree although I think there is one thing you need to remember about Patsy Ramsey -

The Beauty Queen competitions!

 

[BlueCrab]

Oh my - this gets more confusing by the day. :crazy: Shelayne I agree although I think there is one thing you need to remember about Patsy Ramsey -

The Beauty Queen competitions!

Dark Shadows,

I agree; Patsy's ability to perform has to be cranked into the equation. She loved performing and continued doing it even as family home entertainment.

In regard to the cause of death, it should be remembered that the device wrapped around JonBenet's neck was not designed to be a garrote. It was too elaborately built. Garrotes are usually nothing but a simple length of wire or rope. The rope device on JonBenet had ligatures and a wooden stick handle and was a complicated erotic asphyxiation device designed to be used in dangerous sex games involving breath control.

According to the FBI, about 500 to 1,000 Americans accidentally lose their lives each year messing with erotic asphyxiation techniques to enhance orgasms while masturbating. Statistics are hard to calculate because the deaths are often covered up family members to prevent embarrassment.

Had the perp hit JonBenet on the head first, an elaborate EA device would not have been put on JonBenet after death in order to portray a vicious strangulation. That wouldn't make any sense. The perp would have needed only a single length of rope to portray a strangulation. Therefore, it appears the proper sequence of events would have been:

1. Accidental strangulation while EA was being performed on JonBenet;

2. Hit on the head and extreme tightening of the ligature already around the neck to portray the work of a foreign terrorist.

BlueCrab

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Hi. I've been reading for a while, have been closely following the JBR case since I first heard about it in 96. I personally believe JBR was killed accidentally by PR (being tortured for wetting the bed right before a big trip - what about the laundry area inconsistencies?) and JR found out afterwards and helped to cover it up. I believe PR wrote the ransom note...after all, murderers don't write kidnapping notes (and I think a killer bent on revenge against the Ramseys would have left JBR in a more prominent location, perhaps under the Christmas tree), and a kidnapper wouldn't have left the child behind. Even with the girl dead, he could still ransom the body.

Here's my question, in regerds to the strangling/head injury/screaming...how could JBR have emitted a scream loud enough to be heard by people in the house much less out of it if she was being strangled? (I believe the strangulation came before the head wound, and in that scenario, I see no way for her to be able to scream. I further assume she was unconscious by the time her skull was cracked open. I think the head injury was to ensure the obviously imminent and unavoidable death, and to make it look more like the work of an intruder.)

 

[Nehemiah]

Here's my question, in regerds to the strangling/head injury/screaming...how could JBR have emitted a scream loud enough to be heard by people in the house much less out of it if she was being strangled? (I believe the strangulation came before the head wound, and in that scenario, I see no way for her to be able to scream. I further assume she was unconscious by the time her skull was cracked open. I think the head injury was to ensure the obviously imminent and unavoidable death, and to make it look more like the work of an intruder.)

Hi Nuisanceposter...good to hear from you.

I don't think we know that JB did scream at all. Melody Stanton changed her story about the scream and we don't know if she really never heard one, or if she just didn't want to get involved. A scream from JB is just speculation by any of us.

 

[aussiesheila]

aussiesheila,

No, I didn't say the MagLite was irrelevant. I said that, IMO, the MagLite wasn't the murder weapon. However, the fact that someone apparently had removed the flashlight from the drawer in the wet bar and the fact that the light had no fingerprints on it, nor on the batteries, is interesting. It suggests someone had used the flashlight in the murder. A neighbor reported he saw strange lighting coming from the Ramsey's kitchen area late that night, which was likely someone using the flashlight.

I don't remember which bat had the carpet fibers on it; I think it was the one found behind the bushes near the basement's bathroom window sill.

BlueCrab

Thanks Bluecrab. Did either of the Ramseys have anything to say about why the Maglite was on the kitchen bench? It does seem very strange that there were no fingerprints on it. Could that just mean that forensics were unable to pick up a proper set of prints or does it mean the lite was pristine clean? Do you have a reference for the forensic evidence please Bluecrab?

Was the bat in the bushes in a position where it could have been thrown by the killer if (as I think) he departed through the front door, do you know?

 

[Zman]

Hi. I've been reading for a while, have been closely following the JBR case since I first heard about it in 96. I personally believe JBR was killed accidentally by PR (being tortured for wetting the bed right before a big trip - what about the laundry area inconsistencies?) and JR found out afterwards and helped to cover it up. I believe PR wrote the ransom note...after all, murderers don't write kidnapping notes (and I think a killer bent on revenge against the Ramseys would have left JBR in a more prominent location, perhaps under the Christmas tree), and a kidnapper wouldn't have left the child behind. Even with the girl dead, he could still ransom the body.

Here's my question, in regerds to the strangling/head injury/screaming...how could JBR have emitted a scream loud enough to be heard by people in the house much less out of it if she was being strangled? (I believe the strangulation came before the head wound, and in that scenario, I see no way for her to be able to scream. I further assume she was unconscious by the time her skull was cracked open. I think the head injury was to ensure the obviously imminent and unavoidable death, and to make it look more like the work of an intruder.)

Ok for all those who still think JBR was killed by PR in a fit of rage for wetting the bed please tell me how JBR ate pineapple with a 1x1 hole in her skull?

 

[narlacat]

I dont know if PR is responsible.
She ate it beforehand.

 

[Zman]

I dont know if PR is responsible.
She ate it beforehand.

So PR finds JBR in a wet bed and freaks out. Then takes her down stairs and feeds her pineapple with a bowl and spoon that both R's say no one would ever use. After a few min's of eating and calming down PR picks up the FL and clubs JBR over the head.

Have I got that right?

 

[Nehemiah]

So PR finds JBR in a wet bed and freaks out. Then takes her down stairs and feeds her pineapple with a bowl and spoon that both R's say no one would ever use. After a few min's of eating and calming down PR picks up the FL and clubs JBR over the head.

Have I got that right?

I don't think Patsy killed JB, however, for those who do...they think JB ate the pineapple when she first got home. They don't think JB was asleep when she got home but that she was up playing around or whatever. I've never read anyone post the scenario that you just posted.

 

[Shelayne]

Oh my - this gets more confusing by the day. :crazy: Shelayne I agree although I think there is one thing you need to remember about Patsy Ramsey -

The Beauty Queen competitions!

I guess I am having a hard time comprehending this scenario. Because she was a former pageant gal she could pull off this ordeal???

Excuse me, but I have done that beauty route and have been in commercials--have done various acting jobs, etc. and there is still NO WAY I could ACT myself through such a horrendous tragedy. Not happening. Unless they really despised that little girl, they wouldn't be able to stage a sexually sadistic scene with her after whacking her over bedwetting, either. Even the best actors need direction. They shoot their scenes in tiny segments, knowing their lines in advance, rehearsing their scenes before the actual shoot. Because she did pageants? ... Well, she probably had the smile down pat anyway.

But participate in a murder of her child and/or sadistic staging of same, I just don't buy it. :snooty:

 

[narlacat]

So PR finds JBR in a wet bed and freaks out. Then takes her down stairs and feeds her pineapple with a bowl and spoon that both R's say no one would ever use. After a few min's of eating and calming down PR picks up the FL and clubs JBR over the head.

Have I got that right?

Nehemiah has basically already said what I am going to say...but this is what I think
JonBenet was not alseep when she got home that night. Burke remembers her being awake when they got home.
She ate the pineapple shortly after arriving home BEFORE the tragedy happened.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Nehemiah has basically already said what I am going to say...but this is what I think
JonBenet was not alseep when she got home that night. Burke remembers her being awake when they got home.
She ate the pineapple shortly after arriving home BEFORE the tragedy happened.

So many possibilities, couldn't she have come downstairs and helped herself to the pineapple before she was hit with the bat or flashlight in the kitchen and taken downstairs?

 

[Shelayne]

So many possibilities, couldn't she have come downstairs and helped herself to the pineapple before she was hit with the bat or flashlight in the kitchen and taken downstairs?

Absolutely. The pineapple doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the crime. I found a package of OREOS behind a chair one morning, and they weren't there the night before. Some little "elves" obviously helped themselves to a midnight snack, while the shopkeepers were sleeping, so I think you are more than likely on the right track.

She could have even "pretended" to be asleep, so she could sneak downstairs later for a little snack without mommy or daddy knowing and even snuck back upstairs. Anything is possible. Wasn't there a statement about the wrong bowl or spoon used for this? Sounds like the mark of little hands! Children can be quite sneaky--well at least in MY house they sure try!

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I think JB was awake when they got home from their night out Christmas night. I've read JR say two different things...that she was, and he read her a book, then that got changed to no, she wasn't, and he read a book himself. I believe but I'm not sure that the first one was the original story he told, but quickly changed it.

I think the pineapple was something she ate before any of the nasty business occurred, whether she was served it by someone or got it out herself. *Sigh* Her last meal, so to speak.

I'm having some trouble visualizing Burke being the "intruder." I don't see that he could have done this himself (I doubt he was strong enough or knew about the EA device), I can't imagine who would have helped him (his parents maybe? Certainly not a friend), and there's no way you can convince me he was the author of the RN. I definitely believe that one or more of the three Ramseys in that house were the one(s) who committed this crime.