HODGE-PODGE - LISK-related

[Hotpotato]

Thinking out loud here with the idea I may be able to enlighten everyone about the relationship between Long Island (the main island) and Fire Island.
I grew up on Long Island and spent quite a few years traveling from the main island to Fire Island during the summer. Memorial Day kicks off the summer season when ferryboats are available to travel from the main island to Fire Island. The ferries run twice a day. Once in the morning to Fire Island and back, and again to Fire Island and back. For the most part, those ferries carry visitors who want to enjoy the municipal beaches of Atlantique or Ocean Beach. Doing so is a summer ritual going back long before I was a teenager (1967).
Although the beach runs the length of Fire Island, not all of the beaches are open to the public. Some are directly behind private residences and are not accessible from the road that runs the length of the island. All of them are accessible if you are willing to walk from the municipal beaches along the shoreline to other municipal beaches. Between those beaches are the beach areas used by private residents in the area.
Oftentimes, we would arrive at Atlantique Beach early in the morning, then walk via the beach route along the water to Ocean Beach. It was a long walk, but it afforded us an opportunity to glimpse another way of life and perhaps see a celebrity or two. Ocean Beach hosted an annual summer drag ball as far back as I can remember. Oftentimes, we saw young men taking the ferries from the main island to Fire Island carrying beautiful, sequined evening dresses on hangers covered with dry cleaning bags, and wig boxes. Over time, Ocean Beach came to be associated with the gay community, although it was also the home of members of New York City's more affluent, theater community, writers, and professional people. Ocean Beach was a kind of offbeat place for wealthy people to go slumming in relative peace.

Fire Island, where the designated, municipal beaches are, can be traversed by a series of boardwalks from the main island side, over Fire Island itself to the ocean side. In some places, it can be easily walked in about 10 minutes. There are also areas where there are thickets of swamp reeds, sea grapes, and other bramble-type bushes and shrubs. They are so thick and the brambles and stickers so nasty, that you would have to be an idiot or a very determined soul to try to gain access to the ocean side beach through them. I cannot imagine someone fighting their way through those brambles with heavy body parts, simply to stash them on the beach. The best route is to do it either from behind a private home, where the thickets have been chopped down to allow access to the beach, or along the routes cleared for the municipal beaches (which is highly unlikely as they're quite wide open and sometimes lighted). So, my guess is the killer had to access the beach through the back yard of a private residence.

Burlap. As I mentioned, the swamp thickets grow naturally along the beach and provide a windbreak for the wind blowing from the ocean over the island. It gets very windy by the ocean's edge. During certain months of the year, the wind is so strong that it blows sand from the beach into the back yards, homes and the road that stretches the length of the island. As a result, wherever those swamp thickets have been cleared for beach access or private homes, municipal workers and landscapers plant what's called "balled and burlapped" conifers along the dunes to prevent wind and sand erosion. A "balled and burlapped" conifer is a salt-resistant, small stature tree of about 6' tall with its roots wrapped in burlap and held together with wire or hempen cord. In order to plant this small tree, you have to dig a hole, cut the wire or cord, unwrap the burlap from the roots, put the tree in the ground and then water it. On a property with a 100' property line close to the ocean, you can easily place 30 trees in a line to form a wind break. That's 30 large pieces of burlap. That's a lot of burlap.

Now there's a number of things you can do with that burlap. Ordinarily, if you're an independent landscaper working for a wealthy person, you gather the burlap, chuck it back in your truck and take it home or back to your nursery. You don't leave a pile of burlap on a wealthy customers back lawn. You take it away with you. The same goes for municipal workers. After you plant, you clean up. You bring the burlap back to your municipal work station. Once the burlap is back on your own turf, you can either save it for future use, burn it, or dispose of it. Most landscapers hold some of it back for future use, but don't stockpile it, because if a pile of burlap remains in the sun for too long...it spontaneously combusts. Yes, it catches on fire, just as grass clippings do. Nurseries, on the other hand, will keep a lot of it around for future use with a directive to have the employees "turn" it (flip it over) so that it doesn't catch on fire. They will also keep some for customers when they ask for small pieces for home gardening.

How do I know all of this? My father was a landscaper on Long Island from 1950 until 1971.

When I read about these murders, I immediately thought about that burlap and who might have access to it. My conclusion was that it had to be a landscaper, a nurseryman, a municipal worker, a carpenter working where new home construction required new installations of "balled and burlapped" trees and plants, or a nursery worker. Outside of that, I cannot think of another profession or reason for someone to require a constant or secure knowledge of where burlap may be used, stored or obtained.

Hope this has been helpful.

That was definitely enlightening! I wonder though if the wealthy person might request for them to use the burlap saying they have a project for it or whatever. I can't imagine it'd be such an outlandish request that someone Years later would remember it when the GB4 were discovered. Or maybe they did and called it in, who knows.

 

[WINDSOR]

My conclusion was that it had to be a landscaper, a nurseryman, a municipal worker,


A great number of seasonal workers wor for the various National, State and Municipal Parks authorities on Long Island. Any indication if there was a seasonality factor involved with the date of the disappearances of the victims?

If most disappeared during a specific season, that could be very pertinent.

 

[Armchair-reader]

Thinking out loud here with the idea I may be able to enlighten everyone about the relationship between Long Island (the main island) and Fire Island.
I grew up on Long Island and spent quite a few years traveling from the main island to Fire Island during the summer. Memorial Day kicks off the summer season when ferryboats are available to travel from the main island to Fire Island. The ferries run twice a day. Once in the morning to Fire Island and back, and again to Fire Island and back. For the most part, those ferries carry visitors who want to enjoy the municipal beaches of Atlantique or Ocean Beach. Doing so is a summer ritual going back long before I was a teenager (1967).
Although the beach runs the length of Fire Island, not all of the beaches are open to the public. Some are directly behind private residences and are not accessible from the road that runs the length of the island. All of them are accessible if you are willing to walk from the municipal beaches along the shoreline to other municipal beaches. Between those beaches are the beach areas used by private residents in the area.
Oftentimes, we would arrive at Atlantique Beach early in the morning, then walk via the beach route along the water to Ocean Beach. It was a long walk, but it afforded us an opportunity to glimpse another way of life and perhaps see a celebrity or two. Ocean Beach hosted an annual summer drag ball as far back as I can remember. Oftentimes, we saw young men taking the ferries from the main island to Fire Island carrying beautiful, sequined evening dresses on hangers covered with dry cleaning bags, and wig boxes. Over time, Ocean Beach came to be associated with the gay community, although it was also the home of members of New York City's more affluent, theater community, writers, and professional people. Ocean Beach was a kind of offbeat place for wealthy people to go slumming in relative peace.

Fire Island, where the designated, municipal beaches are, can be traversed by a series of boardwalks from the main island side, over Fire Island itself to the ocean side. In some places, it can be easily walked in about 10 minutes. There are also areas where there are thickets of swamp reeds, sea grapes, and other bramble-type bushes and shrubs. They are so thick and the brambles and stickers so nasty, that you would have to be an idiot or a very determined soul to try to gain access to the ocean side beach through them. I cannot imagine someone fighting their way through those brambles with heavy body parts, simply to stash them on the beach. The best route is to do it either from behind a private home, where the thickets have been chopped down to allow access to the beach, or along the routes cleared for the municipal beaches (which is highly unlikely as they're quite wide open and sometimes lighted). So, my guess is the killer had to access the beach through the back yard of a private residence.

Burlap. As I mentioned, the swamp thickets grow naturally along the beach and provide a windbreak for the wind blowing from the ocean over the island. It gets very windy by the ocean's edge. During certain months of the year, the wind is so strong that it blows sand from the beach into the back yards, homes and the road that stretches the length of the island. As a result, wherever those swamp thickets have been cleared for beach access or private homes, municipal workers and landscapers plant what's called "balled and burlapped" conifers along the dunes to prevent wind and sand erosion. A "balled and burlapped" conifer is a salt-resistant, small stature tree of about 6' tall with its roots wrapped in burlap and held together with wire or hempen cord. In order to plant this small tree, you have to dig a hole, cut the wire or cord, unwrap the burlap from the roots, put the tree in the ground and then water it. On a property with a 100' property line close to the ocean, you can easily place 30 trees in a line to form a wind break. That's 30 large pieces of burlap. That's a lot of burlap.

Now there's a number of things you can do with that burlap. Ordinarily, if you're an independent landscaper working for a wealthy person, you gather the burlap, chuck it back in your truck and take it home or back to your nursery. You don't leave a pile of burlap on a wealthy customers back lawn. You take it away with you. The same goes for municipal workers. After you plant, you clean up. You bring the burlap back to your municipal work station. Once the burlap is back on your own turf, you can either save it for future use, burn it, or dispose of it. Most landscapers hold some of it back for future use, but don't stockpile it, because if a pile of burlap remains in the sun for too long...it spontaneously combusts. Yes, it catches on fire, just as grass clippings do. Nurseries, on the other hand, will keep a lot of it around for future use with a directive to have the employees "turn" it (flip it over) so that it doesn't catch on fire. They will also keep some for customers when they ask for small pieces for home gardening.

How do I know all of this? My father was a landscaper on Long Island from 1950 until 1971.

When I read about these murders, I immediately thought about that burlap and who might have access to it. My conclusion was that it had to be a landscaper, a nurseryman, a municipal worker, a carpenter working where new home construction required new installations of "balled and burlapped" trees and plants, or a nursery worker. Outside of that, I cannot think of another profession or reason for someone to require a constant or secure knowledge of where burlap may be used, stored or obtained.

Hope this has been helpful.

This has been very helpful to me. I don't live near the ocean. I had no idea how these beaches all connected other than a road but you put things in perspective. Now I can visualize with the pictures you have painted instead of looking at maps. I always look forward to your posts. They are interesting and enlightening. Thanks bunches!

I've never been on a ferry
I've never been on a train
I do not like the ocean
Give me the farm with horses and cows and trucks. Lol

 

[Hotpotato]

My conclusion was that it had to be a landscaper, a nurseryman, a municipal worker,


A great number of seasonal workers wor for the various National, State and Municipal Parks authorities on Long Island. Any indication if there was a seasonality factor involved with the date of the disappearances of the victims?

If most disappeared during a specific season, that could be very pertinent.

Yes, summer

 

[Armchair-reader]

My conclusion was that it had to be a landscaper, a nurseryman, a municipal worker,


A great number of seasonal workers wor for the various National, State and Municipal Parks authorities on Long Island. Any indication if there was a seasonality factor involved with the date of the disappearances of the victims?

If most disappeared during a specific season, that could be very pertinent.

Suffolk seems to have migrant workers for potatoes. Late July through late November.
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2002/10/...ing-face-of-the-suffolk-harvest.html?referer=

 

[deedee21]

I was looking for something I thought I could find on this thread. There are no post between 12/18/13 and 12/4/16. Was this thread closed during that time period?

 

[TheGardener]

Has anyone seen this Pix 11 report from March 17, 2015?
http://pix11.com/2015/03/17/from-gilgo-beach-to-atlantic-city-a-serial-killer-by-the-sea/

"DNA played a pivotal role in Bittrolff’s case, eventually tying him to a third murder. PIX 11 was intrigued by an online comment posted by a young woman named Amanda Beinlich several years ago. Turns out her mother, Rita Tangredi, was one of Bittrolff’s alleged victims in 1993. Her best friend was Melissa Barthelemy, the first woman discovered in burlap on Gilgo Beach in December 2010."

"And PIX 11 remains intrigued by the Facebook connections—and friendships—between some of the victims.
It turns out Molly Jean Dilts, a 20-year old from Blairsville, Pennsylvania discovered dead in the Atlantic City ditch, was Facebook friends with Amber Lynn Costello of Long Island, a victim of the Gilgo Beach ripper."

...an interesting connection.

 

[deedee21]

Has anyone seen this Pix 11 report from March 17, 2015?
http://pix11.com/2015/03/17/from-gilgo-beach-to-atlantic-city-a-serial-killer-by-the-sea/

"DNA played a pivotal role in Bittrolff’s case, eventually tying him to a third murder. PIX 11 was intrigued by an online comment posted by a young woman named Amanda Beinlich several years ago. Turns out her mother, Rita Tangredi, was one of Bittrolff’s alleged victims in 1993. Her best friend was Melissa Barthelemy, the first woman discovered in burlap on Gilgo Beach in December 2010."

"And PIX 11 remains intrigued by the Facebook connections—and friendships—between some of the victims.
It turns out Molly Jean Dilts, a 20-year old from Blairsville, Pennsylvania discovered dead in the Atlantic City ditch, was Facebook friends with Amber Lynn Costello of Long Island, a victim of the Gilgo Beach ripper."

...an interesting connection.

There was no facebook connection. Someone setup a fake facebook. It has been said Rita T ( Bittrolff victim) daughter was friends with Melissa B ( victim of LISK). Dont know if that was verified or not? Quite a coincidence. Or not.

 

[deedee21]

Youtube John Bittrolff. Could he be the LISK? Hes vicious.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Has anyone seen this Pix 11 report from March 17, 2015?
http://pix11.com/2015/03/17/from-gilgo-beach-to-atlantic-city-a-serial-killer-by-the-sea/

"DNA played a pivotal role in Bittrolff’s case, eventually tying him to a third murder. PIX 11 was intrigued by an online comment posted by a young woman named Amanda Beinlich several years ago. Turns out her mother, Rita Tangredi, was one of Bittrolff’s alleged victims in 1993. Her best friend was Melissa Barthelemy, the first woman discovered in burlap on Gilgo Beach in December 2010."

"And PIX 11 remains intrigued by the Facebook connections—and friendships—between some of the victims.
It turns out Molly Jean Dilts, a 20-year old from Blairsville, Pennsylvania discovered dead in the Atlantic City ditch, was Facebook friends with Amber Lynn Costello of Long Island, a victim of the Gilgo Beach ripper."

...an interesting connection.

Just a few comments to make on this post and the one before it.

1. We do know the cause of death for the Asian male victim...it was blunt force trauma.
2. The facebook page you mention is a fake.

 

[TheGardener]

Just a few comments to make on this post and the one before it.

1. We do know the cause of death for the Asian male victim...it was blunt force trauma.
2. The facebook page you mention is a fake.

I did mention that he may have had a rough sex gone bad encounter. Its also possible he was picked up for the sole purpose of being robbed and beaten. Its not an uncommon crime in the LGBTQ community, unfortunately.

Thanks for pointing out the fake.

There's something else I noticed. Many of these bodies have been discovered in or near parks, reserves, outdoor recreation areas. They're not being stuffed into dumpsters. This murderer knows where cops don't patrol. He knows a LOT about the natural wilderness areas on Long Island. He also knows that Ocean Parkway and those wilderness reserves are unlighted and inky black at night. Unless the moon is full, you can't see your hand in front of your face - which leads me to believe he's using night vision equipment. If you remember, the police searches at Gilgo Beach were lit with floodlights. Which in turn leads me to believe he's a hunter with money to spend for top-notch hunting supplies. Think about it. He needs butchering tools: a variety of extremely sharp knives and a stone for sharpening them, saws for cutting through bone, plastic bags, burlap, suitcases, Rubbermaid containers, cleaning supplies, disposable phones. This is a way of life for this guy...and its expensive money and time wise. He has to be able to finance both his cover life and his killing life. He has to have leeway to both find time and finance his killing life and cover life. He may take long trips away from home saying he's going hunting or on business related trips. He needs to be able to drop out of his cover life for a few days or a week at a time. Don't forget, he has to hunt for a victim, transport them to the kill site, butcher them, then distribute the body parts or bodies to one of those wilderness areas at night. That's quite a time consuming escapade.
He's very intelligent and calculating, and he has everyone in his cover life completely fooled.

Notice where the bodies were located and their proximity to nature preserves and heavily wooded areas.
https://maphub.net/jjslate/gilgo-beach-murders

 

[Hotpotato]

I've seen it said that Melissa barthelemy was likely kept for a time either prior to or after her death. Is there any validity to this? Because I think that says where/what the killer has access to. Might also suggest killer is able to have time off (summer even, maybe?)

 

[TheGardener]

Thinking out loud here again...

Whoever this guy is, he's having a ball making idiots out of the cops. He hasn't been dumping entire bodies for the length of his killing career. He's putting torsos in one spot and their detached legs quite a distance away. In effect, he's creating more than one crime scene for each body he dismembers...thus complicating law enforcement's job. He hates cops. He's getting a charge out of creating as many crime scenes as possible, because he likes the idea of making any discovery more difficult for the cops. It fits in nicely with his dismemberment fantasy and amuses him...after all, isn't he thinking he's smarter than the police?

I also got to thinking about Fire Island Jane Doe#7's legs. Her skull is waaay over by Jones Beach Island, and her legs are on Davis Beach. Think about that. Who would drop the skull in Jones Beach, then drive alllllll the way to Davis Park to dump her legs? Now, if you had a boat, you could easily cross from a slip on Long Island anywhere from West Hampton Beach west to Freeport or Rockville Center to gain access to the Jones Beach/Fire Islands.

Stay with me here. Since our murderer likes to scatter body parts, or dump bodies as clandestinely as possible, could he not load those bodies or parts into a boat, cross the inlet, deposit Jane Doe's legs on the northern side of Fire Island/Davis Park, travel west underneath the Robert Moses Causeway to Jones Beach, anchor close to the beach, carry or drag a body or parts across that short width of beach, and toss either the entire body (or in this case JD#7's head) into the brambled woods there? In doing this, the legs wind up on the northern side of Davis Park/Fire Island, but the bodies and parts wind up on the southern side of Jones Beach. He doesn't need to use the highway at all.

Does our killer have access to a boat? A cabin cruiser? Did he switch from dumping on the mainland via the highway, to dumping on the outlying islands via the sea?

A little Long Island history...since this country began, Long Island has always been thought of as a collection of seaport villages strung together by roads and highways. The first towns and villages grew up along the shoreline. As those seaport villages grew, the native Americans living on the Island were gradually pushed out in order to make way for whites in the shipping and fishing industries. You'll notice that Long Island's various villages and towns' names are derived from Native American tribal names, British names, or port names. Its a place traditionally and historically arranged to accommodate boating activities. There are virtually hundreds of boatyards, marinas, slips and docks where all kinds of pleasure craft and commercial ships can be docked on both the North Shore and the South Shore. Wherever there's a body of water or an inlet opening out to the ocean...you're guaranteed to find either a little boat slip, an upscale marina for wealthier people, or a commercial boatyard.

How do I know this? Not only was my dad a landscaper on Long Island, he was also an avid sport fisherman who knew the inlets, docks and boatyards on Long Island like the back of his hand. I spent a lot of my childhood learning about deep sea fishing and boating from him, so I understand both the local nautical culture and history of Long Island. If you have two cents to rub together, and you live on Long Island...you own a boat.

So, our killer just might be a long time Long Islander who is also a boat owner - which gives him TWO methods for disposing bodies and body parts. When I saw that Jane Doe#7's legs were found on the north shore of Davis Park and the head found on the south shore of Jones Beach. It made sense that our killer may have abandoned risky dumping on the main island for more clandestine, shore dumping from the sea. By the way...its easier to hose out a boat than it is to hose out a car or truck.

Take a look. Possible?
https://maphub.net/jjslate/gilgo-beach-murders

 

[TheGardener]

By the way...if you zoom in to the closest zoom on the map, you'll see literally thousands of boats moored behind houses, at marinas and at boatyards. From Massapequa Park to the tip of Fire Island...you have clear sailing across the bay and inlets through to either the northern side of Fire Island, or the southern side of the Jones Beach/Gilgo beach area.

There are five large boatyards on south Long Island near navigable waters to both Fire Island and Jones Beach/Gilgo Beach. They're located on the map: Lindenhurst, Bayshore, Islip, and East Islip. But, you can really dock anywhere you please.

https://maphub.net/jjslate/gilgo-beach-murders

 

[TheGardener]

Here's a map.

 

[Kellyd]

Here's a map.

Very interesting indeed...

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk

 

[Armchair-reader]

I've seen it said that Melissa barthelemy was likely kept for a time either prior to or after her death. Is there any validity to this? Because I think that says where/what the killer has access to. Might also suggest killer is able to have time off (summer even, maybe?)

I'm wondering if Bittrolff and his wife had separated for any length of time. I have 5 addresses for him. 2 in Center Moriches. 1 in Monorville. 1. Shirley 1. Mastic Beach.
Also I think I read he had his own business. Does anyone know the name of the business?

 

[Vapor]

I'm wondering if Bittrolff and his wife had separated for any length of time. I have 5 addresses for him. 2 in Center Moriches. 1 in Monorville. 1. Shirley 1. Mastic Beach.
Also I think I read he had his own business. Does anyone know the name of the business?

Name of the business was Coastal Construction Inc.

 

[TheGardener]

I've located John Bitrolff's home on Google maps. Not surprisingly, less than 3-5 miles from him is an enormous grouping of greenhouses and nurseries. Any one of them would stock hundreds of burlap bags. Its a veritable motherlode of burlap.

 

[TheGardener]

Name of the business was Coastal Construction Inc.

Interesting. Maybe he was constructing something other than homes along the coast...