How bad a mother does it take? European or American ideas?

[southcitymom]

Kidnapping is not the only danger and not the only reason not to leave your child alone. Starting fires is another biggie. Getting into dangerous things like drugs, and sharp objects like razor blades and scissors, sticking their fingers in electric sockets, drinking poison, climbing on high cabinets, drowning in the toilets... That's why people hire babysitters.

These are my thoughts as well. If I ever considered leaving my 3 children ages 3 and under in a room by themselves while I went for dinner, kidnapping wouldn't be the danger that would come to my mind - I probably would never even think that there was a real chance that they might be kidnapped.

But I would worry that they might get into some sort of mischief that could harm them terribly. And I would worry just as much that one of them might wake up - sad or scared or from a bad dream - and need the loving arms of a parent to usher them back to sleep. Can you imagine how terrifying it would be for a 2 or 3 year old to wake up crying and not be able to find Mom and Dad? The thought of that just breaks my heart.

I'm all about independent children and no one would ever accuse me of being overprotective, but these are 2 and 3 year olds, for God's sake!!!! Even considering the cultural divide, it fails to make sense to me.

 

[colomom]

I hope with all my heart that this isn't true because if it is, my children are hosed!

I can tell by your post that you are probably....WRONG!!!

 

[colomom]

I'm in the UK I would now way leave my children alone, my youngest son has never slept without me in the room let alone out the house. It really isn't the usual thing to do in the UK either. Most people I know cant believe how stupid they were in leaving them alone.
I really can't see why they just couldn't of eaten dinner together as a family.
I am sure had this of been a smoking single young chav mum on benefits her name would've been dragged through the mud from day 1. Instead it's been kind of frowned on to criticise them too much...until now that is!

Me too spacecowboy...my kids were always soooo close to me, at all times, I began to think I was paranoid. But, I know now, looking back, I was careful, cautious, concerned and very much in love with them. I knew I could not live without them. Maybe, I am selfish, I try hard to give them appropriate freedoms but, I will hold them as close as I can, they are my everything.

Also, I want you to know that I really believe that most of us in America DO NOT believe that the McCanns "relaxed" parenting style is considered "normal" in your country. Parenting is so much an instinct that I believe that we are very much alike everywhere in the world. I really believe more people are paranoid like me...

Hurrah for the paranoid!!!!!

 

[hoppyfrog]

Texana, I thought your post above (#15) was excellent.

Shrinkydink, I thought your post that started this thread was excellent too.

Hoppy

 

[marrigotti]

Ya, I don't get that either. I mean, obviously it was supposed to be a "family vacation" because they took the kids with them. If they wanted soooo much privacy and time away from the children, why wouldn't they have just left them in the UK with a nanny or relative?

And, I agree--it is Madeleine who has paid the ultimate price for their inability to parent in an effective and responsible manner.

Wasn't Kate's mother there? I wonder what role, if any, she played in the babysitting department.

 

[Texana]

Ugh! Sounds like something out of Mary Poppins! But Mary Poppins did get the parents, especially the father more involved with the children by the end of the movie.

yes, which made the not-so-subtle point that not being with your children mean missing out on so many wonderful things.

If the McCanns were really used to that tradition, Nanny would have been an integral part of the family and come along on vacation.

 

[Texana]

Wasn't Kate's mother there? I wonder what role, if any, she played in the babysitting department.

Thank you Hoppy, I like your screen name!

Marigotti, the mother present was the mother of one of the other "Tapas 9" people, Diana Webster, mother of Dr. Fiona Payne, wife of David Payne. The Paynes reportedly used the baby monitor system to listen in on their child(ren.)

The McCann children were in the "creche" or daycare during the day, but at night were with their parents.

 

[Texana]

Sadly, it is as lax as I have said. I am appalled by how people here try to act as if these things don't happen that often. Ok, maybe kids aren't kidnapped all that often, but as I ask my friends here, are you really going to be sitting around, saying, "Gee, the odds were totally against my child getting kidnapped¨" when it's *your* child? Of course not.

I don't get it, either, but I do think this case and the recent ones in Switzerland have made a bit of a difference. A few Swiss people are also now saying that children of only four and five should not be walking alone to school. This is really progress for this country. It IS a very safe country, but they do need to admit *no place* is pedophile-free. And you are quite right about the pedo-rings in Europe. If we all know the kids walk to school alone, you know the pedophiles are aware of it, too.

Shrinky

I know Shrinky, what you mean by the attitudes people have. When we lived in a certain city in Texas that had lower crime rates overall, every time there was a serious crime they would interview the residents of that neighborhood on television, and they would always say, "I thought this was a NICE place!"

It was as if they felt themselves to be immune from crime because they lived in a "nice place." They seemed outraged that they were having to deal with nasty crime. Once our neighborhood had a spate of burglaries overnight from cars, and all the idiots who left laptops and purses in their cars in the driveways--some even unlocked--were quite convinced that the thiefs must have been dreadful outsiders because of course, we lived in a "nice place."

I was disappointed that the McCanns did not take the line of emphasizing that "no child is safe alone these days" instead of "it was just like being in the garden." If Madeleine was indeed kidnapped, in that small of a time window, then we must do a better job world-wide of convincing people that there are no "nice places" anymore.

And even if she was not, because truly, I don't believe in nice places anymore.

 

[strach304]

Personally, I believe that the number one factor in a woman's ability to mother and her quality of mothering directly relates to how she was mothered.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6651307.stm

http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-1264930,00.html

I won't make any comment....what does your gut tell you?

My sister and I would be a total contradiction for that opinion. Of course we were mothered differently by the same mother so maybe that explains it.

 

[Schmerty_Jones]

I know Shrinky, what you mean by the attitudes people have. When we lived in a certain city in Texas that had lower crime rates overall, every time there was a serious crime they would interview the residents of that neighborhood on television, and they would always say, "I thought this was a NICE place!"

It was as if they felt themselves to be immune from crime because they lived in a "nice place." They seemed outraged that they were having to deal with nasty crime. Once our neighborhood had a spate of burglaries overnight from cars, and all the idiots who left laptops and purses in their cars in the driveways--some even unlocked--were quite convinced that the thiefs must have been dreadful outsiders because of course, we lived in a "nice place."

I was disappointed that the McCanns did not take the line of emphasizing that "no child is safe alone these days" instead of "it was just like being in the garden." If Madeleine was indeed kidnapped, in that small of a time window, then we must do a better job world-wide of convincing people that there are no "nice places" anymore.

And even if she was not, because truly, I don't believe in nice places anymore.

There are NO places "nice"enough for babies & toddlers to be left without a parent or a nanny!

 

[shrinkydink]

It sounds almost like because it is "common" in Europe somehow (in this case) must be justified, I do not think so at all. Her "mentality" as you call it resulted in the DISAPPEARANCE of her three year old child, let's PLEASE not forget that. Really? It seems like you see her as a "victim" when the only victim I see here is Madeleine whose because of irresponsible parents ended up...well...who knows where! The Mc Canns will ONLY pay for their negligence when they are charged for negligence. Sure but in this case we have a MISSING child, are you going to make an eye blind there? Yes, people make DUMB choices DAILY but when those choices AFFECT OTHER people, in this case a toddler they MUST be held accountable.

Her mentality helped someone take her child, there is actually a difference, and you still don't see, to get that. The person who took her child is the one who is culpable. Did her and her husband's choice to leave their children alone make that crime easier? Of course it did. How has she not been held responsible for that? As far as I know, that action on her part, as wrong as it seems now, IS something that people do all the time, and what you don't get is that - until this happened, they didn't see the harm. Stupid? Obviously. A crime in Portugal? Nope. I'm assuming it's not a crime in Switzerland, either, simply based on how often it's done.

I am NOT saying this makes it a good idea. The fact that a child is missing shows it wasn't. What I am saying is that over here, MOST people ONLY think it is bad luck that their child was taken, not a sign of bad parenting. They only blame the person who took her, not the parents for leaving her.

Yes, hold people accountable, but could they please be held accountable for what they actually did and not made up stories like swinging and child abuse according to American law - a law that does not apply to this case? So many people want to assume they are even capable of murder, which is a pretty big jump, based on the lack of evidence, and the shabby evidence thus far.

I'm not making excuses for what they did, but two wrongs don't make a right, either. Their poor parenting skills don't leave them legally liable for anything at this point. And their poor parenting skills are no excuse for the nonsense that some people spout here, based on nothing but rumors they WANT to believe, since everyone knows bad mothers should be shot at dawn. Seriously, I have read more than once on this board what a shame it is they can't just go ahead and arrest them now, even lacking any proof they did anything worse than leave their children home alone. Some would argue their child being take was some sort of punishment, but people here seem to not think that is punishment enough.

Some people here talk as if it's such a shame we can't just start throwing people in prison based purely on the hateful sentiments of some who have made their decisions based on how they "feel" after seeing some pictures and thinking about how they don't like the smug looks of the parents.

That doesn't seem just a little legally shaky to you? Again, dumb as it was, it was not a crime for them to leave their children sleeping while they went to dinner. And, much as you don't want to believe it, in a lot of the world, that is considered within the realm of "normal." Not wise, but not unheard of and generally not condemned, either.

As for saying no one but Madeleine is a victim, do you really mean to say that, if your child was missing and now presumed dead, and you knew in your heart this wouldn't be the case if you had only not gone to dinner that night, or had you only gotten a babysitter, you really don't think you'd suffer? Just because Kate Mccann did something stupid doesn't mean she doesn't suffer the pain any mother would feel if she had lost a child this way. Do you really think she sits around thinking, well I totally asked for my kid to be take for me by my own bad choices, so I have no right to feel any pain? Or do you just assume she feels no pain because you've made her such a non-human in your mind?

Your inability to recognize that Kate McCann is suffering just proves to me how hard you work to demonize the woman.

Shrinky

 

[Shazza]

The parents did committ a crime by leaving their children alone, they put their children in danger knowingly, they are not stupid, they knew the risks and what can happen with children if they are left alone, so by putting them in harms way they should be charged with child endangerment.

If we leave our children alone in a car, house etc for a any period of time those children are in danger as they are unable to defend themselves at such a young age, and if the police are called you are charged.

So what makes it so different that the McCanns are not charged for endangering their children.

 

[ThoughtFox]

Kidnapping is not the only danger and not the only reason not to leave your child alone. Starting fires is another biggie. Getting into dangerous things like drugs, and sharp objects like razor blades and scissors, sticking their fingers in electric sockets, drinking poison, climbing on high cabinets, drowning in the toilets... That's why people hire babysitters.

Unfortunately, that list is so true, and things happen to children all the time. Little children don't have to fall very far to have major injuries, and the chance of that happening increases when parents aren't there. Of course accidents happen even at home, but you can't hear a child cry out in pain if you are out the door, past the hedge, and in a restaurant with music playing. And that is neglect.

The person who took her child is the one who is culpable. Did her and her husband's choice to leave their children alone make that crime easier? Of course it did. How has she not been held responsible for that? As far as I know, that action on her part, as wrong as it seems now, IS something that people do all the time, and what you don't get is that - until this happened, they didn't see the harm. Stupid? Obviously. A crime in Portugal? Nope. I'm assuming it's not a crime in Switzerland, either, simply based on how often it's done.

But that doesn't make it right or good for the children. This isn't about whether the parents thought it was good, right, or something alot of parents do.

This is about what one family did that led to some sort of tragedy - we don't really know what happened yet, but a child is missing. That their "intention" was to be safe isn't the point - people often rationalize what they are doing so they can go off and feel good about it.


What you seem to be talking about is the Logical Fallacy known as "All the Kids on the Block," as in "If all the kids on the block like a certain type of cereal, then we should go buy that cereal now."

Advertisers use that form of persuasion, but it's really illogical.

The argument would be:

If all the parents in Europe are leaving their children alone in resort hotels . . . therefore it is all right that the McCanns did that even if Maddie disappeared . . . and they really did nothing wrong . . . because all parents in Europe leave their children alone.

It's a circular argument in an effort not to pass judgment, but when a child is a victim, the parent's rights are secondary to that, I believe.

 

[shrinkydink]

I agree with your comments on mothering. We do learn from our own mothers, obviously. I think Kate's mother sounds like a very simple, probably none-too-bright woman with misplaced faith. (Not so unllike some people posting about her family on the internet, in fact.) She also sounds very, very desperate, which is how they have *all* sounded to me, from the beginning. I personally think all the press was a bad idea, because I think huge amounts of international press like that makes any kidnapper less likely to take a child back in public for any reason. I also think it ties up LE in many countries with false leads. I can understand why people would do it, though, because it makes them feel less helpless, and there is the very small chance it might lead to their child being spotted.

I think the sad fact is that in most of these cases, as someone here already mentioned, these children are dead within hours. There is every reason to believe Madeleine will never be found alive, just based on statistics and the amount of time that has already passed.

I can see why her family doesn't want to ever give up hope, though. There are the rare cases where they are found again. A young teenage girl in Germany finally escaped from a dungeon she'd been kept in for years not too long ago. She'd spent something like seven years in a dungeon under a pedophile's house, less than a kilometer from her parents home & the spot where she'd been taken. (She'd been across the street from her parents' apartment, going to a candy store when she was abducted. Someone saw her talking to a man in a car, and then she was just gone. Not heard from again for years. No other signs, not other clues.)

Personally, I think people need to be concentrating more seriously on the very real existence of pedophile rings in Europe, instead of wasting time trying to decide just how bad a parent KM is. Even if she can be proven to be THE worst mother on the planet, if her daughter was indeed taken by a stranger, that should still be the main focus.

If nothing else, I hope the people in Europe whose mantra has always been, "But it doesn't happen that often" will realize that they need to stop doing things that make it so much easier for it to happen as often as it does.

Shrinky

 

[shrinkydink]

Advertisers use that form of persuasion, but it's really illogical.

The argument would be:

If all the parents in Europe are leaving their children alone in resort hotels . . . therefore it is all right that the McCanns did that even if Maddie disappeared . . . and they really did nothing wrong . . . because all parents in Europe leave their children alone.

It's a circular argument in an effort not to pass judgment, but when a child is a victim, the parent's rights are secondary to that, I believe.

You still don't understand what I am saying. My argument is not circular at all, nor is it even what you say it is.

I am NOT saying that what they did was right, just because everyone else is doing it. I am specifically answering the charge that they are lying when they say they didn't feel it was a mistake at the time. What I was saying is that I beleive they believed that at the time, based on the culture they were were both raised and live in AND based on the fact that they were in a tiny village at the time, where ulocked doors are common. "Common" might not make something right, but it does make it understandable, and it does make it seem true when they say it was what they believed.

I think you aren't separating a moral judgment from a practical one. Do I think they were stupid to do it? Yes, and I have been told many times by Europeans how cold I am to "blame" the parents by saying this. I also never said they shouldn't be held accountable. But other than saying, "Damn, that was stupid, and now your child may be dead because of your stupidity" how do you propose to hold them accountable?

There is a difference between held accountable for your own stupid choices - no matter WHY you made them, and no matter that you thought they seemed like fine choices at the time - and what I see happening here. People are ready to crucify KM for almost everything she does now, including the look on her face! That's not accountablility that's the villager's running amouk with torches, just trying to make themselves feel better by pretending only the children of bad, bad mothers get kidnapped by pedophiles.

It's a very common anxiety-reducing technique used to make ourselves feel better at the expense of other. It's not really any more intelligent than the stpud things these same people are villifying KM for. It's turning a totally blind eye to the very real problem of child predators. People are pretending the predator isn't really the problem, it's someone else. I don't see that attitude as being a whole lot smarter than the attitude that leaving a child alone at night is ok.

Shrinky

 

[shrinkydink]

The parents did committ a crime by leaving their children alone, they put their children in danger knowingly, they are not stupid, they knew the risks and what can happen with children if they are left alone, so by putting them in harms way they should be charged with child endangerment.

If we leave our children alone in a car, house etc for a any period of time those children are in danger as they are unable to defend themselves at such a young age, and if the police are called you are charged.

So what makes it so different that the McCanns are not charged for endangering their children.

YES - they were STUPID. Absolutely. What they did is a crime by American law, but they did NOT do this in the US. Sorry, but I don't get why this point is lost on you. Maybe it IS a crime in Portugal, and they have not been charged yet, but I don't think it is a crime, or all the other parents at that resosrt would have been charged, too.

American law does not apply outside America, no matter how much you wish it did.

Shrinky

 

[Shazza]

YES - they were STUPID. Absolutely. What they did is a crime by American law, but they did NOT do this in the US. Sorry, but I don't get why this point is lost on you. Maybe it IS a crime in Portugal, and they have not been charged yet, but I don't think it is a crime, or all the other parents at that resosrt would have been charged, too.

American law does not apply outside America, no matter how much you wish it did.

Shrinky

I know American law doesnt apply outside of America, just like Australian law does not apply outside of Australia.
I am sure I have read somewhere in this forum that there is a law about child endangerment in Portugal, if so they should be charged accordingly, pending further investigation into them having any further involvement in regards to her disappearance.

 

[shrinkydink]

I know American law doesnt apply outside of America, just like Australian law does not apply outside of Australia.
I am sure I have read somewhere in this forum that there is a law about child endangerment in Portugal, if so they should be charged accordingly, pending further investigation into them having any further involvement in regards to her disappearance.

Well,then, my guess would be they haven't been charged because no one is sure what really happened to her. If they really killed her, then they would obviusly be charged with that, instead. If someone else kidnapped her and killed her or has been holding her for their own evil purposes this whole time, then most people would think the parents are suffering enough having to live through that and they still wouldn't be charged with child endangerment. if they are ever charged with child endangerment, I would think they would get house arrest back in the UK, and there would be some question as to why their friends weren't charged, too.

Shrinky

 

[Shazza]

Well,then, my guess would be they haven't been charged because no one is sure what really happened to her. If they really killed her, then they would obviusly be charged with that, instead. If someone else kidnapped her and killed her or has been holding her for their own evil purposes this whole time, then most people would think the parents are suffering enough having to live through that and they still wouldn't be charged with child endangerment. if they are ever charged with child endangerment, I would think they would get house arrest back in the UK, and there would be some question as to why their friends weren't charged, too.

Shrinky

If they committed a crime in Portugal and there is a law there, then they should be charged, doesnt matter if they are going through tough times, commit the crime do the time.

 

[shrinkydink]

If they committed a crime in Portugal and there is a law there, then they should be charged, doesnt matter if they are going through tough times, commit the crime do the time.

Sure, in theory, but that isn't the way it works in the real world. If it did, they and all their friends would have already been arrested that night.

Shrinky