How Many Steps to Innocence??

[Toltec]

8 TOM HANEY: What I would like to do

9 then is just have you walk us through and maybe

10 first of all, just in your own words again, if

11 you could tell us from the time that you got up

12 on the 26th of December, what you did and what

13 happened on that, after you go through it all

14 once and we will come back again and that's when

15 I would like you to mark on here, we will trace

16 your path, your route, what you did and the last

17 additional questions then, okay?

18 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay. I awakened

19 that morning, probably somewhere between 5:30

20 and 6. We are going to take off for the airport

21 just at 7, we were going to the lake house. I

22 got up and walked over here to my bathroom right

23 in here.

24 TRIP DeMUTH: I am sorry, I missed

25 what you said, what time you said.

0009

1 PATSY RAMSEY: Sometime

2 between 5:30 and 6 a.m. And walked around

3 here to the bathroom and I did not take a shower

4 that morning, so I don't know, you know, what

5 exactly I did here. I mean other than just get

6 dressed, brush my teeth, put on my make up. And

7 get ready to go.

8 And then I walked down downstairs

9 here, came to the landing there (showing

10 document) and there was an ironing board here,

11 some clothes, I had a plastic bag kind of right

12 in here somewhere that I had just things to

13 throw, throw in, to take for my trip. And I

14 think I was here for a couple of minutes, just

15 getting some clothes, things.

16 And then I started down the stairs,

17 this staircase, to go to the kitchen. And the

18 note was on the landing, on the stairs, the

19 bottom of the stairs here. And I, there was

20 some lighting on, but it wasn't bright lights

21 (INAUDIBLE) and looked -- you know, started

22 reading the letter.

23 And after the first couple of

24 sentences realized, you know, what was

25 happening, and I ran back up these stairs, okay,

0010

1 and pushed her door to her room right here, and

2 she was not in her bed. So I went over to these

3 stairs and yelled out for John, called to him

4 and he came down. And I said "she's been

5 kidnapped, here's a note," whatever. And I was

6 panicking, you know. I think -- I can't

7 remember exactly what I did then, whether -- I

8 think I ran downstairs again.

9 I said, you know, "what do we do,

10 what do we do?"

11 He said, "call 911, call the

12 police."

13 I ran upstairs, and I think -- I

14 think -- I -- I can't remember if -- I think

15 asked him to check on Burke, one of us checked

16 on Burke, and I remember just seeing him at the

17 phone, trying to -- and then I looked down and

18 John came down and on the floor, down here

19 (indicating), I came in here, here, and John

20 came down, I went to the telephone here, and he

21 kind of crouched on the floor, he was in his

22 underwear, and read the papers on the floor

23 right there, and you know, I was trying to get

24 this 911 person to -- it just seemed like it

25 took forever, to drag through, you know, crazy

0011

1 by that time.

2 Anyway, got the message across, she

3 said she would send somebody out, and oh, God in

4 heaven. Oh, then I phone -- called our friends,

5 Mr. and Mrs. Fleet White and Mr. and

6 Mrs. Johnson, they live in Boulder. I think

7 John went back up to get dressed.

8 And I called them and told them

9 that she's been kidnapped, she is missing. And

10 then I walked out through here, and opened the

11 door, and started waiting for -- front door --

12 started waiting for the police to show up.

13 (INAUDIBLE).

14 I was standing on the (INAUDIBLE)

15 and pretty soon a squad car came -- you know,

16 officer came up. And I remember thinking

17 because it said somewhere in the note, if you do

18 that, if you call somebody, that's not good.

19 Blah, blah, blah. And I just remembered

20 thinking oh, my God, I hope they are not

21 watching me. I mean, what if they are watching,

22 if the policeman comes, I mean all this was just

23 rushing through my head.

24 Anyway, he came in and -- and I was

25 just rattled. I think John came in, and I think

0012

1 he kind of walked us over to this sun room area,

2 and tried to -- tried to calm us down and, you

3 know, tried to explain what happened. And then

4 they kind of took over.

You want to talk inconsistensies...read this.

 

[MurriFlower]

Your words, not mine. That's not my theory.

Oh right, my mistake. I think the "killed beause she wet the bed" might be SD's theory. I get all the different RDI theories confused.

 

[MurriFlower]

16 And then I started down the stairs,

17 this staircase, to go to the kitchen. And the

18 note was on the landing, on the stairs, the

19 bottom of the stairs here. And I, there was

20 some lighting on, but it wasn't bright lights

21 (INAUDIBLE) and looked -- you know, started

22 reading the letter.

23 And after the first couple of

24 sentences realized, you know, what was

25 happening, and I ran back up these stairs, okay,

0010

1 and pushed her door to her room right here, and

2 she was not in her bed. So I went over to these

3 stairs and yelled out for John, called to him

4 and he came down. And I said "she's been

5 kidnapped, here's a note," whatever. And I was

6 panicking, you know. I think -- I can't

7 remember exactly what I did then, whether -- I

8 think I ran downstairs again.

9 I said, you know, "what do we do,

10 what do we do?"

11 He said, "call 911, call the

12 police."

13 I ran upstairs, and I think -- I

14 think -- I -- I can't remember if -- I think

15 asked him to check on Burke, one of us checked

16 on Burke, and I remember just seeing him at the

17 phone, trying to -- and then I looked down and

18 John came down and on the floor, down here

19 (indicating), I came in here, here, and John

20 came down, I went to the telephone here, and he

21 kind of crouched on the floor, he was in his

22 underwear, and read the papers on the floor

23 right there, and you know, I was trying to get

24 this 911 person to -- it just seemed like it

25 took forever, to drag through, you know, crazy

http://braveheart.users4.50megs.com/ramsey/floorplans.jpg

I've often heard RDI saying about the discovery of the note, and this doesn't make it absolutely clear by any means, but I think I can see what may have happened and why they did not have their fingerprints on the note.

PR came down the spiral stairs and saw the note, read a few lines and ran back up the stairs to JBR's room. (Never said there that she stepped over the note BTW). Saw she wasn't there and ran to the middle stairs and yelled up the stairs to JR (maybe even went up to the top). Went back down the middle stairs to the kids floor, (checked on BR?), JR probably came down and looked in both rooms, then both went back down to the kitchen and JR read the note where it was on the second stair. Neither of them needed to have touched the note.

Not expecting RDI to take notice of this BTW, just for my own and any IDI (are there any others??) information.

 

[Let_Forever_Be]

I've often heard RDI saying about the discovery of the note, and this doesn't make it absolutely clear by any means, but I think I can see what may have happened and why they did not have their fingerprints on the note.

PR came down the spiral stairs and saw the note, read a few lines and ran back up the stairs to JBR's room. (Never said there that she stepped over the note BTW). Saw she wasn't there and ran to the middle stairs and yelled up the stairs to JR (maybe even went up to the top). Went back down the middle stairs to the kids floor, (checked on BR?), JR probably came down and looked in both rooms, then both went back down to the kitchen and JR read the note where it was on the second stair. Neither of them needed to have touched the note.

Not expecting RDI to take notice of this BTW, just for my own and any IDI (are there any others??) information.

The order of events that the Ramseys took on the 26th December as described in their book:

Patsy finds the note
Patsy checks JonBenet's room
John reads the note
Patsy and John look in on Burke who is "apparently still asleep." (note they did not shake him to make sure he wasn't dead or near death because the kidnapper had done something to him).
Patsy calls 911
Patsy calls a friend called Fernie
Patsy calls the Whites
Police arrive
John checks the walk-in refrigerator
John deals with setting up money for payment
John and Patsy deal with the police
FINALLY, John decides to do a check of the house with friend Fleet

 

[MurriFlower]

The order of events that the Ramseys took on the 26th December as described in their book:

Patsy finds the note
Patsy checks JonBenet's room
John reads the note
Patsy and John look in on Burke who is "apparently still asleep." (note they did not shake him to make sure he wasn't dead or near death because the kidnapper had done something to him).
Patsy calls 911
Patsy calls a friend called Fernie
Patsy calls the Whites
Police arrive
John checks the walk-in refrigerator
John deals with setting up money for payment
John and Patsy deal with the police
FINALLY, John decides to do a check of the house with friend Fleet

Ok, I just realised there is a set of stairs from the second up to the third floor. The spiral stairs do not go up to the third floor, but begin on the kid's floor and go to the kitchen. Then there is a main staircase that goes from the third floor down to the first and then to the basement. Some of the drawings do not explain that well.

 

[Peepers]

It could be that these are not exactly inconsistencies as much as panicked parents trying to remember the exact order of events that took place in a short period of time. What I mean is I dont consider this something that made me suspicious of the R's.

 

[claudicici]

I think

15 asked him to check on Burke, one of us checked

16 on Burke, and I remember just seeing him at the

17 phone, trying to --
I wonder who she is referring to here? Seeing Burke at the phone?...trying to what?

 

[Toltec]

My posts don't come up when I hit the quote button...anyhoo Claudicici you caught this which proves to me that Burke was awake and was heard on the 911 tape.

 

[Agatha_C]

23 And after the first couple of

24 sentences realized, you know, what was

25 happening, and I ran back up these stairs, okay,

0010

1 and pushed her door to her room right here, and

2 she was not in her bed. So I went over to these

3 stairs and yelled out for John, called to him

4 and he came down. And I said "she's been

5 kidnapped, here's a note," whatever. And I was



If she had the RN on the second floor as she indicates in the statement above, then why aren't their finger prints on the RN? Picture it, she carried to the second floor to check JB's room. Called for JR and "here" in reference to the RN. He does not read it until he goes down to the first floor, where he lays it out on the ground, to read (Yeah, Okay). NO FINGERPRINTS!

Does it really take 15 years and internet posters to see this crud?

 

[otg]

First of all, I should say that I can understand having difficulty remembering details of such a traumatic event. But... that shouldn't preclude us from questioning whether or not statements made might mean something that hadn't been considered previously.

That being said, I do wonder who Patsy was referring to when she says, "I remember just seeing him at the phone, trying to..."

Another inconsistency is in the following sequence she describes:


16 And then I started down the stairs,

17 this staircase, to go to the kitchen. And the

18 note was on the landing, on the stairs, the

19 bottom of the stairs here. And I, there was

20 some lighting on, but it wasn't bright lights

21 (INAUDIBLE) and looked -- you know, started

22 reading the letter .

[So she is in the kitchen here, finding the RN at the bottom of the stairs.]

23 And after the first couple of

24 sentences realized, you know, what was

25 happening, and I ran back up these stairs, okay,

[So here she has gone back up the spiral staircase to where JonBenet and Burke slept on the second floor.]

0010

1 and pushed her door to her room right here, and

2 she was not in her bed. So I went over to these

3 stairs [the stairs going from the second floor to hers and John's bedroom] and yelled out for John , called to him

4 and he came down [To the second floor]. And I said "she's been

5 kidnapped, here's a note," whatever. [So if she shows the note to John here, on the second floor, she had to have picked it up and carried it up with her in order to show it to John.] And I was

6 panicking, you know. I think -- I can't

7 remember exactly what I did then, whether -- I

8 think I ran downstairs again.

[So here she confirms that she was on the second floor when she showed the note to John, and he reads it.]

No fingerprints on the RN from PR or JR? Why not?
.

 

[otg]

If she had the RN on the second floor as she indicates in the statement above, then why aren't their finger prints on the RN? Picture it, she carried to the second floor to check JB's room. Called for JR and "here" in reference to the RN. He does not read it until he goes down to the first floor, where he lays it out on the ground, to read (Yeah, Okay). NO FINGERPRINTS!

Does it really take 15 years and internet posters to see this crud?

Oops! You beat me to it while I was busily typing away at my response, Agatha.

That little detail kind of jumps out at you, doesn't it?
.

 

[joeskidbeck]

23 And after the first couple of

24 sentences realized, you know, what was

25 happening, and I ran back up these stairs, okay,

0010

1 and pushed her door to her room right here, and

2 she was not in her bed. So I went over to these

3 stairs and yelled out for John, called to him

4 and he came down. And I said "she's been

5 kidnapped, here's a note," whatever. And I was



If she had the RN on the second floor as she indicates in the statement above, then why aren't their finger prints on the RN? Picture it, she carried to the second floor to check JB's room. Called for JR and "here" in reference to the RN. He does not read it until he goes down to the first floor, where he lays it out on the ground, to read (Yeah, Okay). NO FINGERPRINTS!

Does it really take 15 years and internet posters to see this crud?

Thanks, Agatha. What never fails to amaze me is that we are expected to believe that Patsy saw these 3 pages and didn't pick them up out of pure puzzlement. Both she and John claim they didn't touch it and that is backed up by their lack of fingerprints but the truth is they touched it and touched it plenty, they just had on gloves when they did which would be another sign of guilt. Nobody would grab gloves when they saw a note lying on the stairs. She had no way of knowing who the note was from unless she had penned it herself, plus they moved it to the floor where John supposedly read it, how come that didn't leave fingerprints?

 

[Agatha_C]

Otg,

You did much better with explaining it than I did. PR lied and lied and lied. We all know that in time, lies tell on themselves.

 

[Toltec]

In his interrogation, John Ramsey also says Patsy handed him the note on the second floor.

 

[Agatha_C]

In his interrogation, John Ramsey also says Patsy handed him the note on the second floor.

I was just looking for that interview Toltec. I had remembered him saying she handed the RN to him. The lack of fingerprints on this one item, has always bothered me, even when I was IDI. It just cannot be explained away. Both the R's had contact with that RN and left nothing of themselves on it, not a fingerprint, not a tear, nor a palm print. Unless you're a ghost or wearing gloves, its impossible to do.

 

[otg]

I was just looking for that interview Toltec. I had remembered him saying she handed the RN to him. The lack of fingerprints on this one item, has always bothered me, even when I was IDI. It just cannot be explained away. Both the R's had contact with that RN and left nothing of themselves on it, not a fingerprint, not a tear, nor a palm print. Unless you're a ghost or wearing gloves, its impossible to do.

Exactly, Agatha. It doesn't matter who you think might have written the note. Even if it was left there by the "prescient intruder", why would the parents not pick it up to read it before they could have known it was evidence to some kind of crime?
.

 

[joeskidbeck]

I was once a witness at a criminal trial where a man was accused a holding another man at gunpoint. It was a farce because there was no gun and I should know, I was standing between them at time! Anyway during the trial I gave my version of events to the da and he said "are you sure you want to stick with that story?" I very nicely told him that my words were not a "story", they were the truth exactly as I had told it the night of the incident. He commented that it had been several months, how could I be so sure? Easy says I, when you tell the truth, it never changes and you don't have to remember what you "said", you only have to remember what happened. That's my problem with the R's, it always changed to suit whatever pressure they were under at the time and we can never be sure if what we're hearing is anywhere near the "truth".

 

[BBB167893]

She couldn't have woken up and gone tinkle, because if you recall, her mother beat her to death for wetting the bed!!

Remember, Murri: YOU said that.

 

[BBB167893]

Oh right, my mistake. I think the "killed beause she wet the bed" might be SD's theory. I get all the different RDI theories confused.

I get them confused myself, Murri. And as it stands right now, it's NOT my theory. At least, not as you suggest.

 

[Agatha_C]

Otg,

In this video at 1.11 to 1.12, there is a voice clip, where JR said he handed the RN to the officer that first arrived. So again, where are those finger prints? I'm not getting it. Do they not have fingerprints? Was he wearing gloves when he handed it to the officer?