IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #18

[mysticrose]

I havent been able to keep up as much as everyone here but I think they were taken at that lake. I just don't think anyone staged the bikes it would take to much time and possibly cause quite some interest for anyone driving by or hiking around the lake....

I am so sick of perverts snagging up our children like it is all ok !

 

[Jules71]

I wish we knew the exact location of the bikes. Dan and Abben said they were found by the gate to the jetty. Does that mean literally right at the gate? Or does it just mean the double fenced area near the gate? If the bikes were found further east from the jetty gate, where the woods are - would that change peoples opinions about whether the girls left them there or if the bikes were dumped? I think for me it would. I think if we were told today that the bikes were found on the path where the wooded area is rather than on the path at the gate- I would be inclined to think someone walked the bikes thru the wooded area and dumped them over the fence.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

 

[hambirg]

I still hold the same opinion I held early on.

I dont think they were abducted at the lake. I think they were kidnapped closer to where the camera caught them on tape. I dont think the bikes were 'staged' either but were just discarded there due to convenience.

Most of these kidnapping cases involving young children are opportunity kidnappings. I think the suspect is most likely a stranger or perhaps was there for other reasons but doesnt live there.

He saw two girls alone with no one around. It was the perfect opportunity to kidnap them without anyone seeing them. We have seen this happen in other cases where the child is kidnapped and gone in the blink of an eye. Unfortunately it also isnt unusual for no one to see or hear anything either.

I do not think any of the family members are involved. <modsnip>

That's an interesting thought I haven't really considered. So that would imply that the perp was going south.

I'm just thinking out loud. . .but if the perp was traveling south. . .say from Minneapolis to St Loius. . .and he gets off somewhere in Waterville that would lead him down Lafayette eventually. :waitasec:

What about 11th Street? I had to ask myself why he would get off there. Interestingly there is a liquor store on the corner of 11th and Lafayette. Hmmmm. . .maybe.

 

[callyn]

Actually talking about the "ignore" function is not really allowed here...

I'm glad someone did, as I could not find it. And sometimes, for my blood pressure's sake, I need it.

 

[callyn]

I still hold the same opinion I held early on.

I dont think they were abducted at the lake. I think they were kidnapped closer to where the camera caught them on tape. I dont think the bikes were 'staged' either but were just discarded there due to convenience.

Most of these kidnapping cases involving young children are opportunity kidnappings. I think the suspect is most likely a stranger or perhaps was there for other reasons but doesnt live there.

He saw two girls alone with no one around. It was the perfect opportunity to kidnap them without anyone seeing them. We have seen this happen in other cases where the child is kidnapped and gone in the blink of an eye. Unfortunately it also isnt unusual for no one to see or hear anything either.

I do not think any of the family members are involved. <modsnip>

BBM
If the bikes were discarded due to convenience, to me it seems that the bikes wouldn't have been so far from where a vehicle could park. It just doesn't seem like a 'convenient' spot. If the bikes were found close to where a vehicle could pull up, then I would agree with your statement.

 

[nightowl]

I wish I could think like an 8 year old, or 10 year old.

Looking at where the bikes were found, what are the chances that they were headed there of their own accord, would have gotten off their bikes there to explore or do what???

Why were they in that specific spot, not somewhere else on the path, or anywhere else around town?

Yes..that is hard to do! Thinking like an 8 year old or 10 year old! They could have gotten off their bikes for any reason. For example, I have two girls ages 9 and 11 and at our local neighborhood park they have a special "hidden rock!" It is a brick sized rock that is half buried but they have such an imagination that for whatever reason it is a "special rock" to them that is like a "club meeting place". They've left it in a certain place and want to check and see if it is still there!

The point I'm making is that children these ages will still do things based on imaginative play. They could have had a game or something they liked to play near the pumphouse. If they got off their bikes anywhere around the lake, it could have been for any reason you could think of -- not necessarily a logical reason.

Just makes trying to figure out what could have happened all the more frustrating!

 

[daisynae]

Interesting timing on the pump house comments here. May want to go downstairs to take a peek... just sayin...

I do not get it?
why is it ineresting timing?

 

[elmomom]

I do not get it?
why is it ineresting timing?

You'll have better luck asking your question downstairs.
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Jump to posts around 231 and later.

 

[SapphireSteel]

BBM
If the bikes were discarded due to convenience, to me it seems that the bikes wouldn't have been so far from where a vehicle could park. It just doesn't seem like a 'convenient' spot. If the bikes were found close to where a vehicle could pull up, then I would agree with your statement.

I thought they were?

Gramma on Nancy Grace -

And then another thing I want to say is down by the lake, going, not the bike path, somebody could have snatched them along the road. If there was two people in a van, they could have thrown those kids in their van with their bikes and there`s another way to drive by the houses and get to the end of that trail and they could have chunked the bikes down there with the children.

Misty clarifying -

What she`s saying is at the end of the U that you were shown, the trail comes around here, the bikes were found here, You come to that end of it, this bridge is out into a wooded area and right here is a big patch of grass where you can pull your vehicles up on to and that`s where we parked our vehicles to get back on the trail and go back this way.

So that`s what she`s saying, that someone could have very well come into that grassy area on the south side of the trail that ends as far as being able to walk or ride a bike.

Nancy Grace and Jim Spellman clarifying too -

GRACE: OK, Jim Spellman, joining me there at Meyers Lake, OK, this is the first I`m hearing of a quasi-parking area on a grassy turf near where the bikes were discovered. Would that have been access for someone to park there, dump the bikes and keep going?

SPELLMAN: Yes, it could -- it sort of connects the neighborhood actually quite close to the police station to this back end, that would definitely have to be somebody who was waiting there, because the bike path and the direction that the scent dogs went would lead them down this bike path, someone would have to know that they were there to be on that end, almost ready to intercept them, Nancy.


http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1207/17/ng.01.html

 

[Simp]

I asked this on the last thread before it was closed so I never got an answer. For some of you more experienced sleuthers, what are your thoughts on the girls being together when found? I'm just wondering what's the possibility that they are still together?? I just want to know kinda what to prepare myself for. Then I'm not sure how many times 2 people are taken in an abduction so there may not be any way for you experienced folks to help me. Just a question. TIA

 

[SapphireSteel]

I asked this on the last thread before it was closed so I never got an answer. For some of you more experienced sleuthers, what are your thoughts on the girls being together when found? I'm just wondering what's the possibility that they are still together?? I just want to know kinda what to prepare myself for. Then I'm not sure how many times 2 people are taken in an abduction so there may not be any way for you experienced folks to help me. Just a question. TIA

The fact they were taken together implies to me they will be found together.

There was a reason two were taken instead of one. I upset the forum before by stating how rare the circumstances are as to be almost unheard of. If you figure out why BOTH were taken, you've found the girls.

I do not believe the motive is sexual or random.

:cow:

 

[iamnotagolem]

The fact they were taken together implies to me they will be found together.

There was a reason two were taken instead of one. I upset the forum before by stating how rare the circumstances are as to be almost unheard of. If you figure out why BOTH were taken, you've found the girls.

I do not believe the motive is sexual or random.

:cow:

Could you share your theory using generality rather than specifics, so that we can discuss it? If you think it's family you could say someone close to them, if you think it's a witness say someone in the community, if you think it is someone not yet mentioned you could say unknown perp.

I just find it helpful to discuss theories, it can really be an eye opener.

 

[callyn]

The bikes were found by the gate to the little jetty. On the map you can see that it is not close to where a vehicle could park and just chunk the bikes out. The bikes would have to be carried from the parking spot down the trail to the gate. That just doesn't make sense to me. Why not just drop them and get the heck out of there instead of carrying them whatever distance it is to the gate? I am going by the map, not by what gma said.

 

[Sailorsgirl]

I wish I could think like an 8 year old, or 10 year old.

Looking at where the bikes were found, what are the chances that they were headed there of their own accord, would have gotten off their bikes there to explore or do what???

Why were they in that specific spot, not somewhere else on the path, or anywhere else around town?

When I was 11/12, a friend and I used to go on an "adventure." Basically, we would ride our bikes to the lake, which was only one street over. There were these vines that you could climb through especially in the fall. We would drop our bikes in a grassy area at the beginning of the vines and then climb through them about 100 feet or so and come out on the other side. It could take a good 30 minutes to get through all the vines because they tangled and snapped under our feet. Sometimes when we got to the other end, we would walk around by the lake about 250 feet from where our bikes were. From that point, we wouldn't have been far from the main road. My point is simply that kids do throw their bikes down and explore/wander. Why did we pick that place by the lake when there is a beach in the other direction with swings and a dock. I think because it was a special spot where we could pretend we were on an adventure and that's it.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

CBS 2 in Eastern Iowa's facebook page made a picture of Lyric and Elizabeth, and the tip-line, their cover picture. I thought this was a good idea for keeping the case on people's minds.

http://www.facebook.com/kgancbs2

ETA: Also, they made it their cover picture on August 1, so perhaps they figured that even if they aren't covering the case as much (due to less developments), they can still do their part to keep it on people's minds.

 

[nikb]

Just an fyi. . .LE does not generally name witnesses. . . they out themselves. :what:

That's good to know. I got that impression but I wasn't sure. So as long as RNER's brother doesn't go to the media or somehow accidentally 'leak' the info hopefully he'll be fine.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Could you share your theory using generality rather than specifics, so that we can discuss it? If you think it's family you could say someone close to them, if you think it's a witness say someone in the community, if you think it is someone not yet mentioned you could say unknown perp.

I just find it helpful to discuss theories, it can really be an eye opener.

No worries, as long as I'm not going to get beaten up again for doing so.

Trying to walk a fine line here with TOS but here goes -

First of all you can totally disregard all paddleboats, puppies, fishing boys, horses, campers, Craigs Listers, online boyfriends, empty houses, second hand sightings.

The witnesses we know about are not involved apart from being honest citizens.

I believe the girls arrived home that day, shortly after 12, as expected. I believe they went back out again on a "mission" of some sort.

I believe they COULD have been to the lake earlier on this mission, were not successful, and had to go back a second time, and quickly!

I believe they were captured either right at or very near the lake. By a white van.

I believe TG saw the bikes when he said he did, (maybe about 12.23) and Mr C saw the girls at about 12.18 but has been told to be vague.

I believe they were then intercepted by someone they knew with a story, such as, gramma has taken ill, drop your bikes, quick lets get to the hospital.

I believe the girls may well have been still in the wooded area when Mr G biked past.

I believe there was an older male perp and a younger male perp.

I believe that IF the bikes were staged, it was done by the younger perp under instructions, who then left on foot therefore was not noticed.

IF they were staged, the younger perp went so far as to drag items of their clothing around the scene to confuse the scent, as he had been instructed.

I believe the girls were first taken to Elk Run Heights...perhaps a property, perhaps just a meet up with another perp/vehicle.

From there they were taken God knows where.

I believe the original plan was merely to hide them (motives I cannot discuss) but the main instigator has done a back flip and actually murdered them on the day...he had always planned it this way unbeknownst to his co-conspirators, some of whom had no clue this was part of his plan.

I believe the motive is not sexual but money, and/or another benefit, and I believe this part of the plan has worked out as hoped.

This was VERY well planned, and not random.

All my humble opinion and not intended to replace fact.

I could well do a 360 if other evidence comes to light but based on what we have, that is what I believe happened.

:cow:

 

[GrainneDhu]

One of the reasons I asked in the last thread if this was some sort of state park was that I know that in IA they have to have a pass to get into the area to begin with and that may have been one of the reasons the bikes were left at the gate. People with vehicles would be required to have a state sticker on their front windshield.

There is a small city park located generally across the lake from the place where the bicycles were found. No stickers needed.

A look at hollye's map (referenced in the first post of the thread) will give you an idea of how the area is laid out. To get to the gate, a vehicle would have to drive down a 10 foot wide trail, which would be fairly conspicuous.

Or, a vehicle could be left either in or on the other side of a small patch of woods near the southeastern tip of Meyer's Lake. The woods were full of underbrush but it would be do-able, I think.

 

[nikb]

About the haunted house, I think the link was a 2011 link in error, but I think the idea was valid. I wouldn't be surprised if they had already started working on this year's special haunts. IIRC, I read about it earlier when it was posted and all involved have regular jobs, so maybe friday afternoons, sat or sunday are the only times to work on it. Maybe they have regular volunteers each year too? I would have been thrilled to have a quick (free)run-through of a haunted house!
I looked at the map, lafayette rd looks like it's not far from the girls last sighting on video
*One disclaimer, I'm not the world's best with maps, but it looks pretty close to me.
:moo:

Yes it looked close to me, too. And I didn't think much of it until I read the article closer. I seriously think it's a stretch that it's related, but not as much as when I originally saw the article. Even just the way they advertise it is SO scary I don't think I'd even consider going, but obviously it's a popular attraction so that's just me. That does mean there would be volunteers, possibly regulars or possibly not, maybe in from slightly out of town, of course unpredictable hours and half of them may not even know each other's names or faces if they're only there a few hours a day and not at the same time. They wouldn't have a "shift" most likely (or if they did and didn't show back up what're you going to do, fire them?). It might not even be noticed for days that they hadn't showed back up to voluntter. It's an interesting thought! All IMO.

I should add that I have helped set up a few haunted houses, once at our house and several at friends' houses, so I'm not trying to say or imply that everyone who does is creepy. Most aren't, I'm sure. It was a lot of fun and a lot of creativity but I could never get into some of the more macabre stuff and it freaked me out the things people thought of. I know it's all from horror movies and stuff (which I also avoid), but it's still creepy what people can think up.

 

[nikb]

I've had a couple of theories and each time I have been 100% sure that voila, I have solved everything. I certainly hope that I'm not on the list of "certain posters" that has caused an adversarial atmosphere. I think it is great when someone has a strong theory and can back it up with facts or even over-the-top coincidences, but there really is no benefit to try to be right versus wrong and get others to buy in on your theory. If you are succesful then the brainstorming stops because everyone believes the same thing. It isn't productive to win the debate. The real productivity comes into play when someone puts their theory out there and allow others to find holes in it.

(ps: I am pretty sure I mixed my tenses a lot in there)

Personally I don't think you're on that list. I think you've shared great ideas and you're also open to other ideas, even when you have your "100%" theory. I haven't really settled on a theory (other than desparately wanting to believe my 'fantasy world' unrealistic one), but I have a feeling that absolutely none of us will be 100% right. We might get close, but 100% right with such limited information seems doubtful. On the throwing out theories or ideas, I agree, not just here but in business even, sometimes throwing out the "might be crazy" out of the box idea and letting people poke holes in it helps lead to the better idea that no one thought of before. "This won't work because of ____ BUT what about ___"? kinda thing.