IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #28

[Marilynilpa]

Say LE spotted a "white van" on surveillance, would it be one that had been seen often enough to not stick out or be memorable? Such as a delivery van (car parts or restoration), landscaping, florists, or cleaning business vehicle? If I remember correctly, the van in the video had no advertisement on it.

While listening to the scanner the days after the disappearance, not only were LE following up on van reports, they were also interested in abandoned bikes. Sorry I have no link, just looking at my notes from that time. Why would they have interest in other bikes if they had already recovered the "girl's" bikes?

My thought's are that the girl's were abducted closer to the Collins home. Possibly near one of the building's /parking lot's. The girl's got off the bikes, and were abducted. Leaving the bikes and Elizabeths purse available for others (kids on their own bikes)to come along and take them for a ride to the lake, discarding the girl's bikes and throwing the purse over the fence.

How does the 12:30-1:00 sighting fit into your theory? Do you think the girls were taken after 1:00?

You have some interesting ideas, and I know there are other posters who think the girls were taken closer to home.

 

[georger]

What caught my attention with what Mr. Carpenter told reporters is that he saw the girls in that area often. Now grandma said they didn't ride that far, but they did. The Carpenters house is very very close to the lakes entrance. He also said that Elizabeth was always talking to people and was very friendly. This is what makes me believe that the girls meet the perp and befriended him on their many bike rides. Someone who rode the trail often.

Grand parents are put in a horrible position in situations like this.
:waitasec:

 

[georger]

The ONLY thing that makes me think that the girls did NOT know their perp was the fact that the purse was left behind. The bikes being at the lake would be enough for someone to think they would have possibly drowned.

That said, I guess adding the "left behind" purse also feeds a possible staged scene that they were abducted, because (like me) people would assume she would take her purse with her if it wasn't a quick abduction.

I don't think this crime would take too long at all if it was planned out from start to finish from the get go. Literally less than 2 hours. If someone had an afternoon off could easily have done this...job or not. However, would it throw up a red flag for someone to take a Friday afternoon off in the middle of summer? Probably not.

There are two things I just struggle with trying to understand with the whole abduction itself and any possible perps:

1. I just can't wrap my head around the fact that if the girls DID INDEED scream, kick, fight, and scratch, like they'd been taught how did NO ONE hear or see anything? This in turn, leads people to assume this person was known to them, and they went willingly.

2. Someone, somewhere had to have seen SOMETHING. Something has to be askew somewhere and this person who has an idea isn't talking, for whatever reason. Is it a family man whose wife KNOWS he took the afternoon off? Someone who is completely off the radar? Is it someone who is well known in this family who everyone thinks "oh my God, how DARE you even SUGGEST this person could do this?!!" Is it someone who this is their first offense and just got lucky?

I mean really, if this is someone's first offense...never been charged or convicted of any other crime, and abducted these two girls on a whim and has ZERO connection to these girls; the chances of actually finding out who did this is next to impossible...especially if the perp is "such a great family guy". 9 times out of 10 even if the wife DID know, she isn't going to talk...for fear of her own life (assuming it IS a man).

I am not sold on the drug connection. I personally feel if they were killed to send a message they would have done it right on their front lawn. No reason to take and hide them in a park 30 mins away. This perp did NOT want them found right away, for whatever reason. I am of the belief that 7 bridges was nothing but a dumping ground. I think this person took them somewhere else and killed them, and then took them there under the cover of night and dumped them. I don't think they went straight from Evansdale to the park. JMO of course.

Thought: two girls, two abductors working together.

Example: that older man & woman team who have been operating in central Iowa since at least last summer, are still out there, somewhere.
Recently active! LE hasn't found them!

 

[georger]

It would not have to be to "send a message" if a drug connection killed them. It could be someone who bought drugs from the family,also happened to be a pedophile and made a mental note to keep an eye out for one or both of the girls. So it could still be connected to the drug activity without being personal.

Your post sparks a thought. Is there such a thing, people who, specialise in
child sex & drugs, that Dan might have unknowingly been dealing with? That would seem a short list if it exists in this case ???
:waitasec:

 

[georger]

I really think that whole white van association came from the fact that there had been a TON of "white van abduction attempts". I think the fact that they were watching video and saw someone with a white van close to the scene of where they went missing prompted them to check it out just in case.

I think the fact he not only turned himself in immediately, but was also cleared right away indicates it was just a coincidence. That's just my take on it, though...

well unless I am mistaken there still is this older man & woman team operating and not apprehended ???

 

[Marilynilpa]

well unless I am mistaken there still is this older man & woman team operating and not apprehended ???

Why do you think a male and female team would abduct two girls in broad daylight in a public place, then kill them and leave them at 7 Bridges? Do you see this as a team where the woman obtains children for the male to sexually assault and kill?

Just looking for a motive, thanks.

Also, how many such male/female attempted abductions have there been? I've heard of one, but it seems you may have heard of others. Links would be appreciated. Thanks again.

 

[race93]

How does the 12:30-1:00 sighting fit into your theory? Do you think the girls were taken after 1:00?

You have some interesting ideas, Anderson I know there are other posters who think the girls were taken closer to home.

As far as the confirmed last sighting...I would have to say it's kind of a confusing mess! IMO Grandma is not real sure when the girls left, video from auction house may be off 8 min either way. T.G. said he swerved around bikes, rode to bathroom and called his daughter at 12:28. Mr.C thought he saw them in the time span of 3 to 4 hours. I wonder how many people reported seeing the girl's but after hours of repeating said sighting finally confessed to LE that they really had not seen the girl's but wanted to be a part of things? I'm not saying this is what TG & C did, just offering an example as to possibly why the timeline is such a mess.
IMO the girl's were abducted between the sighting/video at auction house & 1:00.

 

[Considering]

What caught my attention with what Mr. Carpenter told reporters is that he saw the girls in that area often. Now grandma said they didn't ride that far, but they did. The Carpenters house is very very close to the lakes entrance. He also said that Elizabeth was always talking to people and was very friendly. This is what makes me believe that the girls meet the perp and befriended him on their many bike rides. Someone who rode the trail often.

Part of this interview has gone "poof". You'll notice that there are some breaks in the film. I remember that in one part that is missing, the Carpenters talked more about it being Elizabeth who they saw they saw in the evenings and in another part Mr. Carpenter talked about the street/direction the girls rode by his house on July 13 and he said something about how she/they usually turned around and came back but this time she/they didn't. There are two quotes left that I think are relevant to what you are saying.

Mr. Carpenter:

"I knew the one girl, though, when she went by, because you couldn't miss her."

The film is cut here and starts back with Mrs. Carpenter saying,

"So, you said, especially Elizabeth. I've seen her every night riding her bicycle. She always stopped and talked to people. She was a friendly little girl."

What I think is relevant is a) it seemed to be Elizabeth in particular that was recognized and b) Elizabeth rode her bicycle by their home every "night".

The Collins said Elizabeth didn't ride her bicycle that far from home but the Carpenters say they saw Elizabeth every evening (night). Not only did the Carpenters claim to see Elizabeth, but they said that she stopped and "talked to people". If they are to be believed, then Elizabeth went much farther than her parents were aware so they must not have been watching her as closely as was thought. Could other things have been happening of which the Collins were not aware?

Lyric had only been going with Wylma to the Collins home since the preceding Monday and that was in the morning. Did Elizabeth show Lyric the way to Meyers Lake? Had they been going to Meyers Lake every day that week? Did someone observe that the girls were there every morning and they were unsupervised? If someone was at or near Meyers Lake on a daily basis because they lived in the immediate area or because they used the trail, the lake, or the park, I think it's possible that someone befriended and later abducted them.

I can think of endless possibilities. :sigh:

 

[race93]

well unless I am mistaken there still is this older man & woman team operating and not apprehended ???

The "old man & woman" could be wearing a disquise to appear less threatening & cover their true identities. :angel:

 

[alliemay]

Was just wondering, is there a day care near the lake?

 

[georger]

Why do you think a male and female team would abduct two girls in broad daylight in a public place, then kill them and leave them at 7 Bridges? Do you see this as a team where the woman obtains children for the male to sexually assault and kill?

Just looking for a motive, thanks.

Also, how many such male/female attempted abductions have there been? I've heard of one, but it seems you may have heard of others. Links would be appreciated. Thanks again.

I have no idea why anyone would do what they did to the girls outside of some deranged so-called reason.

A man+woman team has been reported in the news twice since last
summer trying to abduct some child. CR the first. I forget the second.
Then sighted a third time and reported in the news but I forget where.

In the CR case the father of the child fought with the woman, but they escaped and the father did not get the license number.

 

[Snowbunny]

The "old man & woman" could be wearing a disquise to appear less threatening & cover their true identities. :angel:

Or could it be two males, one male dressed up like a female to throw everybody off their trail? Either way its disgusting to even think about. I hope they catch those two who ever they are and before they actually succeed in getting their hands on any child or human being. I'm still a firm believer that a white van was involved because LE was sure looking for a white van in the beginning.

 

[katydid23]

Why do you think a male and female team would abduct two girls in broad daylight in a public place, then kill them and leave them at 7 Bridges? Do you see this as a team where the woman obtains children for the male to sexually assault and kill?

Just looking for a motive, thanks.

Also, how many such male/female attempted abductions have there been? I've heard of one, but it seems you may have heard of others. Links would be appreciated. Thanks again.

We just had one in Philadelphia. 'N', a 5 yr old was abducted by a 19 yr old female daycare worker, and raped, then released.

Then we just had a case in Canada, where a couple raped and killed a woman on New Years Eve.

 

[Marilynilpa]

We just had one in Philadelphia. 'N', a 5 yr old was abducted by a 19 yr old female daycare worker, and raped, then released.

Then we just had a case in Canada, where a couple raped and killed a woman on New Years Eve.

I heard of those, thanks. But I was specifically wondering about a roving male/female team attempting to abduct children in Iowa.

 

[Marilynilpa]

Was just wondering, is there a day care near the lake?

Yes, there is a nearby daycare center:

The rules at her daycare center have changed too. Foote usually takes the children on daily walks around Meyers lake.

“We won’t be doing that in our daily activities anymore,” Foote said.

http://www.cbs2iowa.com/shared/newsroom/top_stories/videos/kgan_vid_12062.shtml

 

[Bootsctr]

Regarding if the abduction could have been related to retribution in regards to either family and/or both families and perhaps the murders not done where they could be easily found by LE:

12/21/2005

Jury recommends Johnson be sentenced to death

Nearly 12 years had passed since their loved ones were shot to death and buried in shallow graves outside Mason City, Iowa. On the steps of Sioux City's Federal Building Tuesday afternoon, the families of Terry DeGeus and Lori Duncan smiled, tears streaming down their cheeks as freely as the words that came from their mouths. Minutes earlier, they had heard the words they had hoped for: a jury had recommended that Angela Johnson be sentenced to death and join Dustin Honken on death row in connection with five murders in 1993. "She chose the path she wanted. She pays the price now," said Marge Milbrath, the mother of Duncan, who was killed along with her two young daughters. "I feel great. Twelve years is a long time." After 10.5 hours of deliberating, the eight men and four women recommended that Johnson, 41, of Forest City, Iowa, receive the death penalty on eight of 10 counts of aiding and abetting murder. Last month, the same jury found her guilty of helping former boyfriend Honken kill Mason City residents Terry DeGeus, 32; Greg Nicholson, 34; Duncan, 31, and Kandace and Amber Duncan, ages 10 and 6, respectively. The jury recommended death for Johnson on all victims but Nicholson.

On July 25, 1993, Johnson posed as a lost cosmetics saleswoman needing to use the phone when she knocked on Duncan's door. Her entry allowed Honken to get inside, where they forced Nicholson to make a videotape exonerating Honken of the drug crime. Nicholson, Duncan and her daughters were taken to a wooded area outside Mason City, where they were each shot in the back of the head and buried together. On Nov. 5 that same year, Johnson set up a meeting with DeGeus at a field near Mason City. Honken awaited him there and shot him several times before smashing his skull with a baseball bat and burying him.

The bodies remained hidden until 2000, when Johnson, who had been arrested on suspicion of the murders, drew maps to the graves and gave them to a jailhouse informant, who turned them over to investigators. Brenda Stone, DeGeus' sister, said the families still have several unanswered questions about the events of those two nights, details she said are known only to Honken and Johnson. But finally, she said, the families have no questions about the punishment the two will receive. "This woman deserves death. There's a lot of different views on the death penalty, but I think we've all come to the agreement that this is the case in which it is appropriate," Stone said.

http://www.cncpunishment.com/forums/showthread.php?4687-Angela-Johnson-Federal-Death-Row/page2

Of note:

Feb. 18, 2003 - A federal judge denies a request to release the remains of the five victims, ruling the bodies are key evidence in the on-going cases. http://www.murderpedia.org/male.H/h/honken-dustin-lee.htm

Seven years after that, on a fall day, the FBI began digging in the gentle hills of northern Iowa near Mason City. They'd been tipped about new information that yielded a terrible find.

The bodies of all five showed signs of beating and torture; two were bound with duct tape, children's socks stuffed in their mouths.

Honken faces trial next month in federal court on five counts of first-degree murder in what will be the first death penalty case in Iowa in more than 40 years. Iowa has no death penalty.

Expected to last three months, it could also be one of the longest in state history and the most expensive on record.

"There's no doubt this is going to be a big case here," said David McCord, a Drake University law professor who teaches death penalty law. "We don't have that many mass murders in Iowa."

Honken, who grew up in the northwest Iowa farm town of Britt, currently is serving a 27-year sentence in a federal prison on a 1997 methamphetamine conspiracy conviction. He will soon be moved from a federal prison in Marian, Ill., to a state prison in either Polk or Story counties so he can prepare for trial, according to court records.

In 1993, federal investigators described him as one of the biggest meth dealers in the country, with ties in Iowa, California and Arizona.

On July 25 of that year, his girlfriend, Angela Johnson, posed as a saleswoman at the doorstep of Nicholson's girlfriend, Lori Duncan, prosecutors say. Honken followed her inside. He then forced Nicholson to make videotaped statements exonerating him, authorities say.

In legal papers, prosecutors say all four were shot execution-style with a semiautomatic pistol that Johnson had bought at a pawn shop. Their bodies were buried near a grove of trees in a field southwest of the city. Both of Duncan's parents had driven past the grove many times after her disappearance, oblivious she was there.http://www.realpolice.net/forums/police-officer-headlines-76/15080-i-hope-they-hang-him.html

 

[alliemay]

Thanks Marilynilpa, thinking there will be a lot of changes in this town now, which is a good thing, to bad this had to happen for changes to come about.

 

[Bootsctr]

Nicholson and Duncan, an Elvis Presley fan who worked in a local cabinet shop, hadn't known each other long. Duncan agreed to let Nicholson move in a week after he betrayed Honken to a grand jury. Duncan and her daughters, 10-year-old Kandi, who had just begun to grasp reading and math, and the quick-tempered Amber, 6, had no idea of Nicholson's past drug behavior.

Their lives "were snuffed out by a person ... leaving us numb and staggered with disbelief," the Rev. Jim Stiles said during a funeral service held Saturday for Duncan and her daughters, two weeks after a judge released the remains to family for burial.

Not sure why the part about cabinet maker disturbs me in regards to Elizabeth and Lyric, but would a custom cabinet maker have a van to carry their cabinets to their intended destination? Just random thoughts. . .

 

[threecrazykids]

Part of this interview has gone "poof". You'll notice that there are some breaks in the film. I remember that in one part that is missing, the Carpenters talked more about it being Elizabeth who they saw they saw in the evenings and in another part Mr. Carpenter talked about the street/direction the girls rode by his house on July 13 and he said something about how she/they usually turned around and came back but this time she/they didn't. There are two quotes left that I think are relevant to what you are saying.

Mr. Carpenter:



The film is cut here and starts back with Mrs. Carpenter saying,



What I think is relevant is a) it seemed to be Elizabeth in particular that was recognized and b) Elizabeth rode her bicycle by their home every "night".

The Collins said Elizabeth didn't ride her bicycle that far from home but the Carpenters say they saw Elizabeth every evening (night). Not only did the Carpenters claim to see Elizabeth, but they said that she stopped and "talked to people". If they are to be believed, then Elizabeth went much farther than her parents were aware so they must not have been watching her as closely as was thought. Could other things have been happening of which the Collins were not aware?

Lyric had only been going with Wylma to the Collins home since the preceding Monday and that was in the morning. Did Elizabeth show Lyric the way to Meyers Lake? Had they been going to Meyers Lake every day that week? Did someone observe that the girls were there every morning and they were unsupervised? If someone was at or near Meyers Lake on a daily basis because they lived in the immediate area or because they used the trail, the lake, or the park, I think it's possible that someone befriended and later abducted them.

I can think of endless possibilities. :sigh:

Sadly, as much as it pains me to say, I have a feeling these girls may have been a little less supervised than what we have heard from the family. No one wants to go on national TV and admit that the girls typically rode their bikes unsupervised for longer than what the "perfect parent" would consider "acceptable".

But the reality is this: Small town people live like this every day. My kids STILL did before these girls went missing. No one thinks it's going to happen in their community. Kids are out riding their bikes all hours of the day (and sometimes night) and come home safe year after year. I grew up in the same town I live in today and honestly not much has changed. I'm sure some of the daily practices that go on in my house would horrify people who have never lived with my "small town mentality".

It's not even the story of "when I was little we could leave in the morning and not come home until dinner"...I'm saying it STILL happens today in small towns. Just up until a year or so ago can I say I'd noticed a sharp decline in the # of kids who were out riding on their own. Even now, I still see tons of kids out...it's just there are typically at least 2, sometimes more. But parents still let their kids out and about for long lengths of time.

Anyway, my point is simply that I think these girls probably went further than anyone in the family knew. How many of OUR parents would be shocked if they knew all the stuff we did when we were younger? I am CERTAIN my parents didn't know all the mischief I got into.

I know the family means well in their interviews declaring how well supervised they were and how obedient the girls were about their boundaries, but someone isn't accurate...either Mr. C or the family...but I don't know which. And I don't necessarily think anyone is lying, it's what they truly believe.

 

[Bootsctr]

Yes, there is a nearby daycare center:

The rules at her daycare center have changed too. Foote usually takes the children on daily walks around Meyers lake.

“We won’t be doing that in our daily activities anymore,” Foote said.

http://www.cbs2iowa.com/shared/newsroom/top_stories/videos/kgan_vid_12062.shtml

Thank you for that link Marilynilpa! So, anyone who lived near/on Meyers Lake or frequented that area would know the daycare took children there regularly. I am glad the daycare has stopped that activity.