IA IA - Johnny Gosch, 12, Des Moines, 5 Sept 1982 - What if no ring / No conspiracy?

[docwho3]

Beyond the "phone call" (and gee, if this is true, doesn't anyone besides me think this is just a little bit important????), we hear nothing about the father or the 2 siblings (older I think, than Johnny) in terms of how they "acted" back then or what their thoughts are today on all of this. Obviously they are not publicity seekers, but I find it strange that you can find no comments, etc., from any of them, especially after the pictures came out a few weeks back. . .

I agree that it is odd that we hear so little about or from the father. I am not sure any phone calls were important or not important. It could simply have been prank calls or wrong numbers. It would be nice to have traced the calls but I can live without it since it appears we have no choice. And who said the calls existed and were traced L.E. or noreen?

. . .I'm not even convinced I understand the "official" report of how many people abducted him..if its one or two..so many important details seem to be sketchy.

"Official report of how many people" - say what? Was there one (an "official report")? I mean I have never read where L.E. actually had witnesses to any "abduction" at the time of his disappearance when it was still fresh in the news. (I am trying to say all that with a chuckle so we don't all sit down and cry over the lack of info as tempting as it may be- smile.) All I ever read was that maybe someone had been seen talking to him and I don't remember that info as being an official release of any kind (It may have been an official release but I don't remember for sure so don't want to make a claim I can't, at the moment, back up.)

Why am I pointing out that there is even little hard evidence that an abduction took place? Because without reliable eye witnesses to an abduction being mentioned by L.E. or without forensic evidence being mentioned by L.E. we don't know for sure that one or more parents was not involved in his disappearance and in starting at square one I figure the parents are first on the list that need to be eliminated and so far I can't for sure rule them out with the little reliable info available.

I seem to remember reading about a dinner type alibi but I am not yet convinced the timeline of the disappearance is correct as I remember it so until I get reliable info I am still stuck with the parents remaining on the suspect list.

It seems unlikely a 10 years old could have run away and gotten by with it undetected all these years but I can not totally rule it out if he had managed to convince an adult that he was in danger at home and needed to be kept hidden.

If witnesses saw the boy talking to grown men just before he disappeared I want to know who saw him, boys or adults and I want to know if those people have proven to be stable people as the years have gone by.

 

[docwho3]

. . . Even if we could get the name of one of the detectives, assuming they are now retired, we could see what info he might tell.

Interesting thought. If he would allow his name to be known so we could see if he actually was connected to the case and really investigated it as L.E. and if he could give us good info to look at I would be much happier. I think it would be good to be safe and verify from the local L.E. if the guy we find is legit so we don't end up with some prank poster with his own conspiracy or political or or fame agenda. But if you want to contact L.E. and ask. . . go ahead. Maybe they can put out some real info of some kind as to what types of info they really want and maybe tell us something of what they already know.

 

[kawika]

Just an aside, and i'm certainly in full agreement that parents (or, really, anyone living in the home of a person who goes missing) should be looked at very carefully as far as possibly being responsible for the disappearance. But (and I admit I'm not among those who've pored over this case again and again), I'd hesitate to read bad motives into the father's (and other family members') silence.

Hypothetical: I'm married to a woman, we have children. In a highly publicized case, the youngest disappears. A decade later we divorce. My now ex-wife, is utterly consumed by what happened to our child, not even as I am, or anyone would be, but to the point where it is her life 24 hours a day and will be until she dies. Every X number of years, something about his disappearance, often accompainied by improbable (though not impossible) claims by his mother, my ex-wife, is the lead story on every news program across the country.

We had two other children and the three of us all care about my ex, their mother. But. She truly has become pretty 'out there' and as far any of us saying anything publicly about her, about the whole strange (and it has been very strange at times) series of events that have occured in the aftermath of the disappearance of my son/their brother---to what purpose would it serve? The chances that anything will ever be known about the specific circumstances seem very small after almost 25 years and, y'know, long before this point, just being intensely private about the whole thing seems about the only course for us to take.

IMHO, I think the above couple of paragraphs seem an equally plausible scenario one could come up with if trying to read something into the apparently tight-lipped behavior of the non-Noreen family members.

 

[Montanagirl]

The only verifiable fact that I see in this case is the fact that Johnny Gosch was taken early Sunday morning Sept 5th 1982 by two men possibly driving a blue car, according to witnesses.

Everything else, IMHO, have been theories.

Exactly! I 100% believe the same.

His family didn't act like 'most'families under the circumstance which makes me suspicious. And I think Noreen actually believes - kind of like those people who are convinced they have been abducted my aliens. In their minds, they absolutely have and how frustrating for them to not have anyone believe them. Does it make them crazy? Probably not - maybe a bit delusional - but not necessarily crazy.

And I can't even say that I wouldn't do them same. I would possibly be unable to accept that my little girl had been abducted and or killed. I might choose to believe almost anything rather than believe that she may be dead.

 

[William R Thomas]

Will, You need to go back to the thread where you post conspiracy theory if all you can do is attack the posters in this thread. Any further confrontation designed posts will be reported. Comparing someones post to a 9 year olds level is nothing but insulting and cant be taken any other way and it violates the TOS here which I suspect you need to reread.

That wasn't even remotely an attack. And perhaps YOU should reread what I wrote. Her post struck me as being exactly the kind of answer my children would give me, whether you think so or not. If Gidget can't get answers the way she wants them, perhaps she could do the same research those of us deep into this case have done (and continue to do).

If that's what you consider a violation of TOS, or an attack, your incorrect. I think you know DW that my contributons go beyond "all I can do is attack posters on any thread", isn't even remotely accurate.

If you feel neccesary to "report" me for something, please, don't let me stop you. At least try to make it a real violation.

 

[2sisters]

i feel truly bad for Norreen, she is grieveing and has let people with sinister motives covince her that this story is true. For this pedo ring to work then all LE, all polititians, all political spouses and children, all government officals (even some international government) would have to be somehow involved or paid off. It is just not possible. I truly belive that Johnny's life ended that day at the hands of a serial killer( maybe John Joubert needs to be looked at agian). There is just absolutley nothing to go on here for all we know he spontaniously combusted that day. It has been a long time, were he alive he would have been spotted by more people than his mother in a late night meeting that nobody else saw and if his life were really in danger then why did she tell everyone about his vist, wouldn't that be dangerous?

 

[Insguru]

i feel truly bad for Norreen, she is grieveing and has let people with sinister motives covince her that this story is true. For this pedo ring to work then all LE, all polititians, all political spouses and children, all government officals (even some international government) would have to be somehow involved or paid off. It is just not possible. I truly belive that Johnny's life ended that day at the hands of a serial killer( maybe John Joubert needs to be looked at agian). There is just absolutley nothing to go on here for all we know he spontaniously combusted that day. It has been a long time, were he alive he would have been spotted by more people than his mother in a late night meeting that nobody else saw and if his life were really in danger then why did she tell everyone about his vist, wouldn't that be dangerous?

I agree wholeheartedly. We don't know (again maybe this is in a police report?) if he even made it out of the house that morning. Since his dad did not go with him, it makes sense that nobody saw him leave. For all we know, he could have snuck out of the house at 11:30 p.m. (as 12 going on 13 year olds will sometimes do) and never came back in.

Now, I guess that it is fact that his wagon was discovered, and that part of his paper "batch" were folded and in the wagon. Maybe even some were delivered. Again, I'm getting this from the web and not from any official news story. If this is the case, and we can all agree on this (if we can find at least some mainstream media report), then it does make sense that he left the scene in an auto. If we can at least establish that he did begin the route that morning, it would be a helpful beginning. Do we have any concenses on this here?

 

[Insguru]

. I truly belive that Johnny's life ended that day at the hands of a serial killer( maybe John Joubert needs to be looked at agian). There is just absolutley nothing to go on here for all we know he spontaniously combusted that day. It has been a long time, were he alive he would have been spotted by more people than his mother in a late night meeting that nobody else saw and if his life were really in danger then why did she tell everyone about his vist, wouldn't that be dangerous?

For what little my opinion is worth (though I have seen every Magnum P.I. episode), I also tend to agree that he probably did not live long after the disappearance. I know that at least one of our regular posters believes otherwise, and I respect his work on this case greatly, I'm just not there quite yet.

I have too many questions in terms of how he's lived for so many years "underground" without being found out or without coming forward, and I will not get in to all of that here. I've posted my thoughts on that elsewhere.

On the other hand, I will say that bodies have a nasty habit of being found, and alas, there has been nothing. So I cannot discount the idea that he could be out there somewhere.

 

[2sisters]

I agree wholeheartedly. We don't know (again maybe this is in a police report?) if he even made it out of the house that morning. Since his dad did not go with him, it makes sense that nobody saw him leaveQUOTE]

why didn't Mr. Gosch go that morning? He went every Sun is what he has said and Noreen said the same. The one morning he doesn't go and this happens. Again, there are 2 sides to that coin, one he was involved and thats why he didn't deliver with him or 2 someone was watching Johnny and saw him alone and took thier chance. this pedo tale has caused Noreen more harm that good and it is time it is dropped. For her she is always wondering, she has no "closure" for lack of a better word. It is always an open wound of sorts. These people have had her belive horrid things. I can't imagine thinking my child spend most of his life being raped and victimized.

 

[2sisters]

For what little my opinion is worth (though I have seen every Magnum P.I. episode)

Put that with some matlock and you are ready for your law enforcement career! Lol!

 

[loganone]

I agree wholeheartedly. We don't know (again maybe this is in a police report?) if he even made it out of the house that morning. Since his dad did not go with him, it makes sense that nobody saw him leaveQUOTE]

why didn't Mr. Gosch go that morning? He went every Sun is what he has said and Noreen said the same. The one morning he doesn't go and this happens. Again, there are 2 sides to that coin, one he was involved and thats why he didn't deliver with him or 2 someone was watching Johnny and saw him alone and took thier chance. this pedo tale has caused Noreen more harm that good and it is time it is dropped. For her she is always wondering, she has no "closure" for lack of a better word. It is always an open wound of sorts. These people have had her belive horrid things. I can't imagine thinking my child spend most of his life being raped and victimized.

For what its worth, Noreen wrote in her book that Johnny had asked to do his paper route that morning alone. His father said it would be ok, but Noreen said no. Again, this comes from Noreen's book, so there really is no way to verifiy this unless Mr. Gosch can confirm this fact.

 

[Alta]

This may have been answered somewhere already,if it has I apologize in advance.Was the father actively involved with the media and otherwise when Johnny first went missing?Does anyone know how long after the boys dissappearance they divorced?

I also find it strange his being so silent about everything.But,if he was active for years he may now just trying to go on with his life.He may have come to the conclusion his son was murdered and there is nothing he could do.He could also be totally embaressed by his ex-wifes theories and stories of Johnny coming home for a visit etc..

Also thank you so much for starting a seperate thread,I have lurked at the others but just could not wrap my mind around some of the (C) theories.

 

[docwho3]

That wasn't even remotely an attack. And perhaps YOU should reread what I wrote. Her post struck me as being exactly the kind of answer my children would give me, whether you think so or not. . .

I am not the only person who perceived your posts as an attack on a poster and, yes, if you do it again you will be reported.

. . .I think you know DW that my contributons go beyond "all I can do is attack posters on any thread", isn't even remotely accurate. . .

And if you think that having contributed posts in the past will save you when you break the rules you are mistaken. What you have done on this thread is to be confrontational and basically attempted to get into a verbal fight with someone as anyone reading your posts can see.

. . .If you feel neccesary to "report" me for something, please, don't let me stop you. At least try to make it a real violation.

Rest assured that if you continue to pick verbal fights here you will be reported and this is your last warning. We here are seriously trying to stick to the topic of this thread as posted in post number one and as stated in the title of this thread. I think I will bring this exchange of posts to the attention of our mods so they can monitor things.

 

[loganone]

I was just looking thru old newspaper articles and came across a article that ran on May 1, 2004 in the Des Moines Register. A former Des Moines TV journalist that covered the Gosch case wrote a book about the case. I can't find any information about the book, and I can't afford to purchase the article from newsbank.com

Does anyone know the name of this book?

I wonder if we could track down a few of the investigators on the case. I know three so far have retired. James Rowley, the Des Moines police Detective, Chuck Wood of the Iowa Divison of criminal Investigation and Jim Donlan, FBI.

 

[docwho3]

This may have been answered somewhere already,if it has I apologize in advance.Was the father actively involved with the media and otherwise when Johnny first went missing?Does anyone know how long after the boys dissappearance they divorced?

I also find it strange his being so silent about everything.But,if he was active for years he may now just trying to go on with his life.He may have come to the conclusion his son was murdered and there is nothing he could do.He could also be totally embaressed by his ex-wifes theories and stories of Johnny coming home for a visit etc.. . . .

I found this doing a quick web search but there may be more info available in a news archive somewhere:

. . .Johnny's father, now divorced from Gosch, has said he is not sure the visit ever occurred.
. . .

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,213507,00.html
Same quote at
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06256/721200-84.stm

I have not found much more in MSM online news reports of the father ever being very active in the search for Johnny but that does not prove he was not involved, just that I have not yet found evidence of it . . . but it is strange that there is very little mention of him in relation to the case compared to noreen.

I wonder if emails to the foxnews reporters or post-gazette reporters would get us some answers to your questions?

. . .Also thank you so much for starting a seperate thread,I have lurked at the others but just could not wrap my mind around some of the (C) theories.

You are most welcome.

 

[docwho3]

I was just looking thru old newspaper articles and came across a article that ran on May 1, 2004 in the Des Moines Register. A former Des Moines TV journalist that covered the Gosch case wrote a book about the case. I can't find any information about the book, and I can't afford to purchase the article from newsbank.com

Does anyone know the name of this book?

I wonder if we could track down a few of the investigators on the case. I know three so far have retired. James Rowley, the Des Moines police Detective, Chuck Wood of the Iowa Divison of criminal Investigation and Jim Donlan, FBI.

I found this entry on a website:

ST. CLOUD, Minn.
In its promotional information, the publisher of a novel by a St. Cloud State University professor cites studies indicating that the run-of-the-mill pedophile molests up to an average of 150 children in his lifetime. Mark Locke Mills, SCSU associate professor of mass communications, tackled that very subject in a novel recently released by PublishAmerica, LLLP, Baltimore, Mass.
To Protect the Innocent” is the story of a father who chooses revenge when his young son is abducted, abused and killed. . .

http://www.stcloudstate.edu/news/pressreleases/default.asp?storyID=11341

 

[mjak]

Regarding the visit of Johhny in 1997
This is just my two cents but..........

As a mother of a son about Johnnys age..........IF he came back to me after he had been abducted for several years in the middle of the night.......there would be NO WAY IN HELL he would leave my house again. I assure you that I would have to be killed in order for me to lose somthing that precious again.

SO I wonder am I insane or would ANY mother do the same? There is no pedo ring or secret FBI crap that could keep me away from the son that I lost. NO WAY NO HOW! I would NEVER stop trying to find my son and HURT the poeple who hurt him. I do not want to say that Noreen is weak or anything but I do think that someone is playing her hard. I'm not sure she would have let her son walk out the door again after he visited her (six feet and all his *advertiser censored* would be staying put). WOULD YOU?

This has always bothered me too. I do not have children but my instant response to this event is there is no way I would accept my son just walking back out the door again. I would call the police, the press, my Clergymen,
the whitehouse and the incredible hulk!! If need be I would pack up and leave the country with my son that night. If my son had been abducted and showed up in my home years later there is no way I could just let him walk out the door knowing he was going back to a life of Hell given to him from his abudctors. I know someone might think well if you do something you could get him killed, but my response to that is he got away from them to come to my home so I have to believe He and I can keep him safe. He deffinitly is not safe if he leaves my home.

mjak

 

[2sisters]

So basically all that anyone has to go on is that he dissappeared that sunday morning. He may have never even made it to the paper route, the wagon may have been placed there by the abductor to make it look like he had been there. I would think that if it was some high reaching pedo conspiracy then Noreen would have been dead a long time ago. If she was really uncovering all these truths then why hasn't she died mysterioulsy yet, the government wouldn't leaver her hanging around to blow their cover. I really feel like his parents need to be talked to a little more. Not accusing them of anything by they are both a little fishy to me.

 

[docwho3]

Just an aside, and i'm certainly in full agreement that parents (or, really, anyone living in the home of a person who goes missing) should be looked at very carefully as far as possibly being responsible for the disappearance. But (and I admit I'm not among those who've pored over this case again and again), I'd hesitate to read bad motives into the father's (and other family members') silence. . .

Note: I shortened the quote of your material to save space. I hope you don't mind.

Just looking at this one post of yours, you seem like a compassionate and intelligent person who does not like to jump to conclusions about people. I think that is a good thing. I think that what has bothered some of us (although I can only speak for myself) about the apparent silence of some family, such as the father, in this case is that we are comparing the behavior in our minds with our admittedly limited knowledge of other cases we have read about on websleuths (and other places) and/or have seen on the news and the behavior, at least early on in the case and perhaps some later as well, seems different than what usually happenes when someone is innocent.

That having been said, I always look for actual evidence before making a final judgement as to what I personally believe happened. So if I express concern about how the family has acted it does not mean I am basing my personal judgment of their truthfullness or guilty involvement solely on that, but it is one of those things that may be a red flag to me that may make me want to look closer.

In this case, for me, the silence of the father both early in the case and later raises a red flag that something is not right. That silence does not mean he did anything but it raises the possibility that he knows something about the case that he finds upsetting enough to cause him to remain silent. Maybe he suspects the wife did it but can't bear to tell it or thinks it would not be wise for the investigations sake. . . or maybe he knows she did it instead of just suspecting and did not tell it or even helped cover it up and so can't tell now without gettng himself put on trial or maybe he just thinks she is mentally ill and does not want to say anything bad about her even though they have divorced (a rare form of chivalry these days) or maybe he did something to the boy himself or maybe he was just abusive and Johnny ran away and he doesn't want that all drug up in the media if he opens his mouth too much or maybe he feels guilty for not having prevented the disappearance but those are all maybes and with caring people like you on the thread I know we are much less likely to jump to conclusions from those maybes without evidence.

 

[docwho3]

I can finally post again - whew. Ok I had to log out and then come back to the website (my option is set to log me in automatically when I return to the forum website, and normally it keeps me logged in.) However when I used the "log out" link I was logged out and a message said "all cookies cleared" . . . .so I decided to try again to post with my now cleared cookies and it worked. I always knew cookies could be messy things - lol