IA IA - Johnny Gosch, 12, W Des Moines, 5 Sept 1982 - What happened? - #2

[godzorphan]

This is by no means meant to sound like an attack or anything, but where can I find the verifiable information and how was it verified?

I drove to the locations myself and verified that these places that were given in Bonacci's statements were exactly where he said they were, even though they were states apart.

 

[godzorphan]

Godzorphan -

First thank you for all of your insight to this important matter.

Question for you...I believe you think that Johnny is still alive and out there somewhere. What do you think he is doing? I don't see how he could be working for instance, without a SS number and/or birth certificate. Seems like someone would eventually spill the beans (a girlfriend, friend, etc.) as secretes are very difficult to keep. I mean things like learning how to drive, etc., he missed all of that and I don't see how he could be functioning.

Doesn't it seem like it would be difficult for him not to have contacted his dad, brother or his sister??

Would appreciate your thoughts on this..

I can only speculate based on my experiences with victims of child predators over a period of years. From what I understand, if he is still alive (and I believe he is, unlike the fear I have for Jacob Wetterling) he is still working for the group. When kids are taken and raised in that business, they eventually outlive their usefulness as a "trick" and become a "mule" - the one who procures kids. I imagine he does not work a normal job; according to Noreen, he can never leave them. And according to her website, he DID visit her in the middle of the night a few years back. I have no reason to doubt her story. It would make sense, that, as predators often do (especially in organized pedo rings) they first break in the kid, get them "working" then eventually force them to be the perpetrator. The guilt is so extreme - realizing they are now doing to other kids what was done to them - they wouldn't dream of going home. Only one child to my knowlege was able to do that, and that was Steven Stayner, who was kidnapped as a little boy and escaped as a young teen - only after he realized his perpetrator was going to take another boy. And in fact, he almost did not run because he had been threatened so badly by his perpetrator/kidnapper.

One of the things we need to understand is when a child is violated at such a young age, they stay very much frozen in time. If at 13 they are told, "We'll kill your parents if you run or talk", then they believe them. And if they are 35, the fear of that never leaves. I am not at all surprised if at some point Johnny just "gave up" the idea of going home, probably thinking it was too late, or if they knew what he now was doing, they would hate him or jail him. (Which in fact would probably be the case.) Again, speculation based on what I DO know. And also, from what I understand, this group moves the kids around on a constant basis from state to state and into Mexico when necessary. They've basically dropped off the radar. And fake id's used to be fairly easy to get anyway, and with a large enough money base it wouldn't be hard to keep them hidden pretty much forever. Hope some of that makes sense.

 

[Roy Harrold]

Godz - I've stated several times that I've studied all the publicly available data on this case. Did you read the materials I posted links to at the end of the old thread?

I've got a kind of peace offering for you, a way for us to demonstrate our sincerity to each other. I haven't been able to interest law enforcement in the writer I referred to in that posting, so I'm willing to give you my data and let you have a go at it.
But - that will involve giving you links to materials that are extremely offensive. You claim, on your website, to be a servant of God - I will want your word as a pastor/preacher, however you describe yourself, that you will not post links to this material all over the internet. I don't want this animal's filth downloaded by people who don't already know about it.

If you are agreeable to this, I'll set up a way for us to talk more privately than here.

 

[William R Thomas]

Godz - I've stated several times that I've studied all the publicly available data on this case. Did you read the materials I posted links to at the end of the old thread?

I've got a kind of peace offering for you, a way for us to demonstrate our sincerity to each other. I haven't been able to interest law enforcement in the writer I referred to in that posting, so I'm willing to give you my data and let you have a go at it.
But - that will involve giving you links to materials that are extremely offensive. You claim, on your website, to be a servant of God - I will want your word as a pastor/preacher, however you describe yourself, that you will not post links to this material all over the internet. I don't want this animal's filth downloaded by people who don't already know about it.

If you are agreeable to this, I'll set up a way for us to talk more privately than here.

Roy, whats your motiviation here? You've made it known that your not interested in actually "solving" or Sluething this case, judging by all of the many rants and blogss that you have al over the net. You have formulated an opinion on this long ago. Your not looking for any clues, because in your mind, everyone involved has already been convicted.

If you would like me to start pulling your rants and blogs about this case from around the net, and osting them here, I will gladly do so.

It also seems you may have regurgitated the writings of some others, while here on webslueths.

 

[Roy Harrold]

William - if you are under the impression that the writer I'm referring to, in that posting, is you - you are incorrect. I'm not talking about you, there, so relax.

If you have concerns about anything I've posted here, please share them with the moderators as the Terms of Service require.

 

[Roy Harrold]

For the sake of clarification, Godzorphan gives a link to his website in posting #410 of the old thread. I don't reference anything about people who post on here that they have not mentioned here themselves.

 

[godzorphan]

Godz - I've stated several times that I've studied all the publicly available data on this case. Did you read the materials I posted links to at the end of the old thread?

I've got a kind of peace offering for you, a way for us to demonstrate our sincerity to each other. I haven't been able to interest law enforcement in the writer I referred to in that posting, so I'm willing to give you my data and let you have a go at it.
But - that will involve giving you links to materials that are extremely offensive. You claim, on your website, to be a servant of God - I will want your word as a pastor/preacher, however you describe yourself, that you will not post links to this material all over the internet. I don't want this animal's filth downloaded by people who don't already know about it.

If you are agreeable to this, I'll set up a way for us to talk more privately than here.

Yes, I did read some of the material, esp. the article concerning the Amsterdam connection. Some of the other material was inaccessible. I'm willing to look into anything that may get to the core of all of this. I still have a few good contacts in LE, and although their hands are tied in some areas, they do trust me enough to look into things if I feel they are legit. So yes, I'm willing to take a chance here. And yes, you have my word about not posting stuff. I have no desire to further the disease. I am also a little concerned about not knowing where you are on all of this, but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. Contact me privately when you are ready if you wish.

 

[HeartofTexas]

Roy Harrold: I've got a kind of peace offering for you, a way for us to demonstrate our sincerity to each other. I haven't been able to interest law enforcement in the writer I referred to in that posting, so I'm willing to give you my data and let you have a go at it. But - that will involve giving you links to materials that are extremely offensive. You claim, on your website, to be a servant of God - I will want your word as a pastor/preacher, however you describe yourself, that you will not post links to this material all over the internet. I don't want this animal's filth downloaded by people who don't already know about it.

Roy, you've said yourself that you have been waiting since the Gosch/Gannon headlines (which you said you were too late to confront) to jump right in "and force the reality of the convicted sex offender status of Gosch-conspiracy "celebrities" to the forefront - at least for awhile." So why is it that anyone should believe there aren't ulterior motives attached to your offer to Godzorphan? What does Godzorphan have to gain by going to these "offensive" sites other than, perhaps, getting arrested for visiting pedo/*advertiser censored* sites?

 

[inquiringmindz]

Godzorphan,
Thanks for all your meaningful input and insight to your work.

 

[Pablo]

The Franklin Cover-up is the best single source of information regarding the Johnny Gosch case, that I know of. I plan to get ‘The Mystery of the Carefully Crafted Hoax’ and Noreen Gosch’s book, ‘Why Johhny can’t come home’.

Also I’m glad to have recently found www.FranklinCase.org as I’ve had an interest in the issues surrounding the case for years but in somewhat of a vacuum in terms of dialogue. I don’t know who’s behind the site and don’t particularly like the ‘style’ of their selling the T-Shirts, etc. to ‘spread the word’. But I look forward to digesting the info at the site as my time allows.

Not everyone is in a position to research these issues to the extent you two appear to have done so. The ‘hands on’ perspective that you two seem to have is a great value to those who are ‘further down the grapevine’.

Let’s face it, these cases potentially lead to MKUltra type quasi-government sanctioned programs and associated improprieties. For what its worth, the extent to which these cases truly lead to ‘MKUltra type’ programs (or at least their improprieties if not the programs) is the extent to which there is at least one reason I’m not interested in ‘hanging’ Paul Bonacci regarding Johnny Gosch. I see Roy not buying into the stranger implications of the cases, but I don’t know that his interest and motivations in seeing the cases resolved is any less honorable than those who suspect something much larger and stranger.

I think his perspective in dialogue with Godzorphan has the overall effect of shedding important light on the subject for those who are another step removed from the cases. Simple statements like ‘I drove to the locations myself and verified that these places that were given in Bonacci's statements were exactly where he said they were, even though they were states apart’ are worth a lot of dot connecting when the dots are all ‘virtual’, and are flushed out by Roy’s challenges to the ‘stranger implications’.

Roy and Godzorphan, do you have any other suggested reading regarding the Gosch case, Franklin Case and surrounding issues?

Is there any chance that Paul Bonacci’s school records are available, for ongoing investigations, if not to the public?

Do either of you know if the public has any way to ‘perceive’ cases that are sealed for ‘reasons of national security’. Is it possible, for instance, to obtain case numbers that were closed for this reason, even if the case files are sealed?

As stated throughout the threads thanks for the important perspectives and dialogues.

 

[godzorphan]

Pablo,
Thanks for your good post. Unfortunately I don't believe there are any other good books on this subject. One thing I believe is quite telling - especially in the light of all the "satanic panic" debunking that has gone on in the last several years - is that no one has dared try to debunk this case - at least not in the way they attacked others with the False Memory theory etc. I PERSONALLY believe that the "non-response" says two things: One, it's pretty airtight. Two, when people in high places that are involved in such activities are getting exposed, it is not unusual for them to just ignore it all, hoping if they pay it no attention, no one else will pursue it and it will eventually drop out of public concern. (And it usually does - people have a very short memory for traumatic crimes against children - a defense mechanism I guess.)

As to sealed cases, I don't know. The Freedom of Information act is always one route to go.

For the record, and I can't go into a lot of detail in this forum, there WAS some psy-op / military programming on certain victims in this case. That is why I too am very cautious about assigning blame.

And while I don't know any books I CAN recommend, I must caution anyone about books or "deprogrammers" that claim to understand and are able to unlock the programming. We got burned so bad that it nearly unraveled ten years of work because of some of these "experts" who turned out not at ALL to be who they claimed.

 

[Franklinfiles]

I have been "lurking" for a while now just reading the posts related to the franklin case and johnny gosch. I am currently working on a website devoted to the franklin/johnny gosch story and this discussion has been of great interest to me.

I have been doing extensive research on the franklin case, much of which I will be posting at http://franklinfiles.org when finished compiling. As the years go by much of the information that was made public is starting to slip into obscurity and I want to ensure that this is kept available to the public to keep awareness.

I have initiated contact with several of the "key players" in the case and my goal is to contact them all with the opportunity to provide information for our site that would update their current lives after the case, as well as any other original documents, etc. that would be appropriate for public comsumption.

As you can guess, most of them have tried very hard to move on with their lives, choosing to live out of the public eye, for fear of their lives and because so much of their lives have been "stolen" from them by the franklin case, they want to move on.

Quick note here: If any of you have relevant verifiable information related to the franklin case, please contact me at the above referenced site or through private message.

Now to my point.

First, I will echo Godzorphan in that no real intelligent conversation can be waged unless you are conversing with a working knowledge of the book "The Franklin Coverup". DeCamp has systematically documented the facts of the case in the book. This is further evidenced by the fact that he implicates and names several public figures, with not even a hint of recourse on their part. In fact, DeCamp has publically, and on the record stated that if anyone made the same claims about him as he has made of others, he would sue for liability.

Many tried to refute DeCamp's/Bonacci's win of the civil suit as a win by default because Larry King couldn't appear due to his incarceration. King started to appeal the decision but then abrubtly dropped the suit. Why? Because the truth would come out. During the Franklin Trials, the committee worked very diligently to include within the charges the allegations of the pedophile network which again, was irrefutable, but dismissed via cooperation on many different federal levels which DeCamp documents in the book.

Additional publicity related to this case must be avoided at all cost because if this ever went to trial again, this would mean gag orders lifted, documents unsealed, and politicians and public figures being implicated in a scandal that would rock this nation.

Paul Bonacci was a key witness in the case for several reasons. He did keep a very accurate diary that easily corroborates many related issues, much of which has not been released publicly, yet others have verified the contents of the diary. This diary was tested by several experts and dated years before the franklin case went public. Also, Paul's taped testimony authenticated the stories of more than 80 other people who came forward. Paul and Alicia were the only 2 that refused to back down to the bully-intimidation tactics of the FBI and others involved in the case.

It is also worthwhile to note that "Conspiracy of Silence" was not the only documentary about this case. There was also a 20/20 investigation that was halted from airing, and even America's Most Wanted was threatened by the FBI to stop the airing of their investigation, which John Walsh ignored and did air a total of 6 episodes. I am currently working on obtaining copies of these.

The Franklin Case is well worth the time and energy being spent in doing some thorough research to become aware of the facts of this case. This is not some scandal that rocked Nebraska in the 80's, the story is still being written today, and in fact several of the people that I have interviewed have stated that it is worse now, than it ever was when the case was blown open.

 

[Roy Harrold]

Heart of Texas - the material in question is on a blogspot site, and believe me if it was provably illegal that site would have gone bye-bye a long time ago. That doesn't mean it's not disgustingly offensive, despite being "staged" photos and fictional commentary.
What's important about it is the fantasies it reveals the author revelling in...

I'm just offering godzorphan a chance to look into something that involves real names of people that verifiably exist, with relevant dates and even current contact addresses. I'd rather work with someone than at odds with them.

You chose a good quote, from me, about the Gosch case. I'm interested in arrests and convictions for the abduction of Johnny Gosch specifically. It's easy to lose sight of that initial crime and its importance, when people start talking about "other aspects" that have come to be associated with the case - all the alleged conspiracies and MKUltra and Project Monarch and partisan political slanders and Aquino and on & on.

And frankly, I don't trust convicted sex offenders and I don't trust their motivations for promoting all this other stuff that so successfully takes people's minds off the fact of Gosch's abduction, and the reality that a convicted sex offender has attempted to confess his participation in kidnapping and raping the boy!

There's no mystery to "where I am" on this case - I'm determined to ensure that the essential crime at the heart of it all does not get lost and buried under mountains of ifs & maybes.

 

[godzorphan]

Franklinfiles;

thanks for weighing in. It's good to have people from several angles and interests in on this. Somewhere I still have the AMW clips, if I can just find them. Anway I'm glad someone else is working to keep this thing alive.

 

[Franklinfiles]

Franklinfiles;

thanks for weighing in. It's good to have people from several angles and interests in on this. Somewhere I still have the AMW clips, if I can just find them. Anway I'm glad someone else is working to keep this thing alive.

I would be most appreciative to obtain copies of those clips.

 

[Roy Harrold]

Pablo - thank you for your kind words!

For me, "the case" is about this - some person or persons abducted a 12 year old boy on the morning of September 5, 1982, from the streets of West Des Moines, Iowa.

All the rest makes fascinating reading, and you'll find most of the rest of the story on the Franklin Files site.

Personally, I don't believe the true facts about the abduction of Johnny Gosch have been uncovered or revealed by anyone to this point in time, so I can't recommend anything relevant for you to read about it other than what appears on his Doe Network listing. You might find Noreen Gosch's (his mother) perspective interesting:

http://www.johnnygosch.com

 

[Pablo]

I have a request into AMW for the Gibson and Bonacci shows but haven't heard back. If anyone knows how to view them and/or related videos (I've seen Conspiracy of Silence) please post the info.

 

[Insguru]

I saw tonight where the case file of the 2 year old missing in Florida has been released by the police.

I was wondering if the Gosch file has ever been (or parts of it) released to the public? It might help (at least folks like me) answer some questions.

I still have questions about the phone calls, especially the one originating from Sioux City that supposedly lasted 30 seconds just prior to his abduction. Hardly a wrong number if it lasted that long. I think the case file could help fill in some of the blanks in terms of explaining some of this, so that perhaps we sleuths could narrow down our focus. I would love for us to hear the explanation of who answered the phone (the dad i believe) and also why he did not go on the route that day, etc. I'm sure these questions were asked by LE, and answered, but have any of us really seen any of this? Can we obtain any of this?

 

[miles_draken]

When the original Johnny Gosch thread was started I was simply looking for updates on the case. The unbelievable amount of information related or tied to this case whether relevant or not is staggering. Lost in all this mess of conspiracy theories and whether or not we believe or disbelieve Noreen Goschs' accounts is the fact that several lives were forever changed by one day many years ago in West Des Moines. Johnny Gosch, whether he was killed ten hours later or is still alive today has had an enormous impact. His mother became a crusader, and even though I question the validity of entangling herself with Gunderson, I truly believe she is out there to do good and find her boy. This is still her child, and he will probably forever be that age he was on that fateful morning in her mind.

I've never heard of all the impact it had on Johnny's siblings, but it must have been tremendous to go through this. The resulting divorce of Noreen and John Sr. not withstanding.

Some people believe this or that and will never change their minds unless a skeleton uncovered proves to be Johnny at the age of abduction; or an old beyond his years Johnny Gosch comes out at a news conference with his mother and offers definitive proof of his existence and tells exactly what happened these past three decades. A storybook ending is probably never going to happen in this case. It comes down to a simple either or; either he is dead, or he is alive. If he is alive he is irreperably damaged. If he is dead then all the rest of this is window dressing, but Noreen Goschs' gift to missing children cannot be denied. The Johnny Gosch Bill was a major victory, and she has done some great work in honor of her son.

So when we lose sight of the prize and fight amongst ourselves over who believes what, let's remember that no theory or opinion has ever solved a mystery. Tireless investigation work and hopefully a little luck is what puts the bad guys in jail and brings the wounded home again. I know that 'proof' seems to be a loosely used word these days, but when I talk about proof I mean verifiable fact leading toward the conclusion of the investigation.

Johnny Gosch disappeared over twenty years ago, that is the one fact I know, and not one theory or opinion has yet solved this case. I guess what I want is resolution to a case that has haunted me for most of my life. I want to know what happened to that boy.

It's late, forgive me for preaching.

 

[William R Thomas]

William - if you are under the impression that the writer I'm referring to, in that posting, is you - you are incorrect. I'm not talking about you, there, so relax.

If you have concerns about anything I've posted here, please share them with the moderators as the Terms of Service require.

You have no knowledge of anything I've written, and quite frankly, you are the last person I'm worried about in that regard. That being said, your response to my post makes no sense. I take offense at the constant stream of slanted nonsense that you regurgitate here from your numerous post on the internet and on your blog.

You have made your view that this isn't really even a case, and your theory that the guilty has already admitted guilt, very well known, so why do you continue to post on site where people are trying to develop theories or move along a case with insight and deductive reasoning?

Did you ever ask yourself for a second Roy, if Bonacci admitted he was guilty and knew so much, why they didn't arrest him? Perhaps theirein lies the answer, but unfortunately, it's a long trail in the complete opposite direction from where your at.