ID ID - Lonnie Jones, 13, Orofino, September 1951

[Peter Brendt]

Oh,and Robin,You are correct: you cant see the River from the road there...at least now.
Thats one thing I dont know...how much HWY improvement has altered the area.
You can tell some development was done around the house that is there now.
Its still pretty heavily timbered.
It is still close to the river but the trees and brush obscure it.

So it's kind of a forest feeling? Calm, a bit spooky? The question is, would someone HEAR the river at night?

Peter

 

[kline]

If I imagine this all right after this description, there was no reason for any kind of business traveler to be on that road at this time of the night. And even locals would be pretty rare there at this time. Add to that, that cars were rarer back then than they are today.

Another question: From where the two boys dropped Lonnie to the site where he was found, how far is that?

Peter

Its about 10 miles further on to Kamiah.
yes that time of night traffic would be rare(even now) except on Fair Weekend a good portion of Pierce and Weippe could be expected to be heading back up the Greer Grade to home.
If Lonnie was on the Greer side of the bridge heading for the bottom of the grade anyone passing down HWY12 say coming from Missoula headed towards Lewiston(such as a Salesman or truck driver) or going the other direction would never have seen him.
But anyone headed up the hill to Weippe probably couldnt have missed him which is obviously what Lonnie was counting on.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Its about 10 miles further on to Kamiah.
yes that time of night traffic would be rare(even now) except on Fair Weekend a good portion of Pierce and Weippe could be expected to be heading back up the Greer Grade to home.
If Lonnie was on the Greer side of the bridge heading for the bottom of the grade anyone passing down HWY12 say coming from Missoula headed towards Lewiston(such as a Salesman or truck driver) or going the other direction would never have seen him.
But anyone headed up the hill to Weippe probably couldnt have missed him which is obviously what Lonnie was counting on.

Only the timing doesn't feel right. The fair closed at what? 11:00? And the two teenagers picked him up that the Orofino bridge at 12:30. That means 1 1/2 hours later. So where was he in this time. That's gap one.
Next thing, they drop him in Greer. So, this is ab. 7 miles down the highway. Makes it what? 10 minutes, 15 tops. So we end up with 12:45.
From the ME, we know, he was killed ab. 4 hours after his last meal. Since the food places at the fair closed about 10:30, this would be 2:30 am then. So we have theoretically a gap two of 1 hour 45 minutes in which not only the murder occurred but also the abduction and the rape. But thinking twice makes me think, with every step, Lonnie made direction Weippe, the time window closed more. It became later and later. The fair was now closed since almost three hours, so virtually the chances someone was still on the way home form the fair were virtually nothing. That traffic was through since an hour or longer. Same thing for salesmen. At that time of the night, they would be in a motel because it's too early to be arrive somewhere else for a morning appointment or ringing door bells.
So, adding this together:
A time window of 1:45 at a time in the night, nobody had any reason to drive that road. Also, an offender on the hunt wouldn't lurk there because his chances were like zero to find there a fitting victim. He would go for the victim-rich environment and that was the fair and hours earlier.
But then, the only way to get Lonnie would have been to follow him. Which is not what happened, because this kind of offender would have attacked at the earliest opportunity, he would find his targeted victim alone. Before 12:30 at that bridge. The two teenagers never would have picked up Lonnie because he wouldn't have been there anymore.
But they did. He was there. And according to their testimony, they transported him to an area, where there was virtually no chance, he could cross the path of any hunting offender. 1 hour 45 minutes would place Lonnie, if he immediately start to walk where? Over five miles down the road if he was in good shape. That is, if I understand right, half the way. Or Lonnie was picked up earlier on the way. Lets say 30 minutes later. That would place him well before the site, he was later found. But as you said, he would have been invisible for any driver coming from Weippe. So virtually no chance, someone was there at the time driving and now even half of that.
Maybe we should look into those teenagers again, who gave him a ride and find this police officer, who wanted to write a book.

Peter

 

[jking]

Only the timing doesn't feel right. The fair closed at what? 11:00? And the two teenagers picked him up that the Orofino bridge at 12:30. That means 1 1/2 hours later. So where was he in this time. That's gap one.
Next thing, they drop him in Greer. So, this is ab. 7 miles down the highway. Makes it what? 10 minutes, 15 tops. So we end up with 12:45.
From the ME, we know, he was killed ab. 4 hours after his last meal. Since the food places at the fair closed about 10:30, this would be 2:30 am then. So we have theoretically a gap two of 1 hour 45 minutes in which not only the murder occurred but also the abduction and the rape. But thinking twice makes me think, with every step, Lonnie made direction Weippe, the time window closed more. It became later and later. The fair was now closed since almost three hours, so virtually the chances someone was still on the way home form the fair were virtually nothing. That traffic was through since an hour or longer. Same thing for salesmen. At that time of the night, they would be in a motel because it's too early to be arrive somewhere else for a morning appointment or ringing door bells.
So, adding this together:
A time window of 1:45 at a time in the night, nobody had any reason to drive that road. Also, an offender on the hunt wouldn't lurk there because his chances were like zero to find there a fitting victim. He would go for the victim-rich environment and that was the fair and hours earlier.
But then, the only way to get Lonnie would have been to follow him. Which is not what happened, because this kind of offender would have attacked at the earliest opportunity, he would find his targeted victim alone. Before 12:30 at that bridge. The two teenagers never would have picked up Lonnie because he wouldn't have been there anymore.
But they did. He was there. And according to their testimony, they transported him to an area, where there was virtually no chance, he could cross the path of any hunting offender. 1 hour 45 minutes would place Lonnie, if he immediately start to walk where? Over five miles down the road if he was in good shape. That is, if I understand right, half the way. Or Lonnie was picked up earlier on the way. Lets say 30 minutes later. That would place him well before the site, he was later found. But as you said, he would have been invisible for any driver coming from Weippe. So virtually no chance, someone was there at the time driving and now even half of that.
Maybe we should look into those teenagers again, who gave him a ride and find this police officer, who wanted to write a book.

Peter

I've been wondering more about the teenagers too. I wonder how hard LE looked at them, questioned them, etc. Were they ever considered suspects or persons of interest? Also, did the teenagers come forward after Lonnie was found to say they had picked him up that night or did someone else see them pick him up?

I'm sorry if these questions were answered in a previous post. I tried to read them all, but I might have missed something.

 

[Robin Hood]

If you look here- 1 year after Lonnie was killed they still do not know his movements that day, something so fundamental it smacks you in the face.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AAAIBAJ&pg=4954,1957737&dq=lonnie+jones&hl=en

We have his friend (who he told his Grandmother he was with) Duane Wilfong, now deceased.
The young Mr Wilfong some years later aged 16 is mentioned here

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AAIBAJ&pg=1555,1968164&dq=duane+wilfong&hl=en

Lonnie also told his Gran he would get a lift with a family called Jarrett, I believe it was misheard by the press and should have been 'Jared' There's a large-ish family in Weippe with this name and they have kids who would have schooled with Lonnie.

Then we have the step father who last saw Lonnie in a cafe on the saturday, he, according to the press didn't attend the fair.

Then, the two boys from Kamiah, Leroy Kidder and Bob Hill. News of the day says they went to the police and said they had picked up a hitchiker answering Lonnie description. This was confirmed by two girls from Orofino who the boys were out with.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...-VXAAAAIBAJ&sjid=OvYDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4236,4275719

All these folk and 1 year later his movements can't be accounted for.

 

[Robin Hood]

He may have spent an hour or two at the theatre as somebody suggested where he ate the popcorn. So, where was he ? somebody from the list above surely had a quick look at him from 4.30pm 'til he was picked up later by the two boys at 12.30am-ish ?
They said he looked frightened when he got in their truck but picked his spirits up later by the time when they dropped him off.

Now to take on a different angle.

What if he did spend a little time at the fair but not the whole time. Could something have started earlier that day ? after his gran left, after the theatre, in the vicinity of the fair, but not in plain sight.
Grooming starts now by the internet, then, in 1951 it would have started via face to face contact. Come to my caravan/truck for a look at.... have a cigarette, maybe a beer.
We have looked at the news of the day and autopsy, we have thought maybe it was 'sterilised' as to wether a sexual assault took place or not.
What if it was unclear, truthfully, because when he was found he was completely dressed, belt done up etc. But there were signs that were present. IIRC one of the news reports said 'no sign of RECENT sexual assault'
Maybe the assault took place earlier and he was released with the person relying on the fact Lonnie was too scared or too much stigma was attached and he knew Lonnie would not report it.

Lonnie was. IMO, in 'big trouble' when he did get home, if he were to tell them he had been lured and assaulted as well he may have thought (and I'm sure others in his position have) he would get the blame.
Did lightening strike twice or did the person know where (on what route) Lonnie would be travelling and come across him again.... ?

It's this lack of visuals, a year later and no account of him at the fair- that's odd, yet he is seen on a lonely road...something here doesn't fit.

 

[kline]

So it's kind of a forest feeling? Calm, a bit spooky? The question is, would someone HEAR the river at night?

Peter

Thats a very good description(especially for someone who's never been there!) and yes you can hear the river very well.
I guess its one of the marvels of the internet age but it never ceases to blow my mind how accurately familiar some of you guys are with this area and youve never been here.
Pretty cool really!

 

[kline]

He may have spent an hour or two at the theatre as somebody suggested where he ate the popcorn. So, where was he ? somebody from the list above surely had a quick look at him from 4.30pm 'til he was picked up later by the two boys at 12.30am-ish ?
They said he looked frightened when he got in their truck but picked his spirits up laterby the time when they dropped him off.

Now to take on a different angle.

What if he did spend a little time at the fair but not the whole time. Could something have started earlier that day ? after his gran left, after the theatre, in the vicinity of the fair, but not in plain sight.
Grooming starts now by the internet, then, in 1951 it would have started via face to face contact. Come to my caravan/truck for a look at.... have a cigarette, maybe a beer.
We have looked at the news of the day and autopsy, we have thought maybe it was 'sterilised' as to wether a sexual assault took place or not.
What if it was unclear, truthfully, because when he was found he was completely dressed, belt done up etc. But there were signs that were present. IIRC one of the news reports said 'no sign of RECENT sexual assault'
Maybe the assault took place earlier and he was released with the person relying on the fact Lonnie was too scared or too much stigma was attached and he knew Lonnie would not report it.

Lonnie was. IMO, in 'big trouble' when he did get home, if he were to tell them he had been lured and assaulted as well he may have thought (and I'm sure others in his position have) he would get the blame.
Did lightening strike twice or did the person know where (on what route) Lonnie would be travelling and come across him again.... ?

It's this lack of visuals, a year later and no account of him at the fair- that's odd, yet he is seen on a lonely road...something here doesn't fit.

Your absolutely right it doesnt.
You cant help but wonder if him being 'upset' or 'Scared' when the boys picked him up had something to do with being assaulted or having advances made to him rather then just not having a ride and getting home late
And yes where was he all that time?

 

[Robin Hood]

Kline, I think somebody made Lonnie late, I don't think he intended to be THAT late.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Thats a very good description(especially for someone who's never been there!) and yes you can hear the river very well.
I guess its one of the marvels of the internet age but it never ceases to blow my mind how accurately familiar some of you guys are with this area and youve never been here.
Pretty cool really!

No, I've never been there. And I haven't seen pictures. But alas, I know that kind of place. Have seen it too often, in the European, Asian, even African variants and know it from cases in the US too. Comes usually with a dead body. It's the kind of place, a certain type of offender would chose if he had a choice at all. The only thing, I have to wonder, did this one had the choice?

Peter

 

[Peter Brendt]

Your absolutely right it doesnt.
You cant help but wonder if him being 'upset' or 'Scared' when the boys picked him up had something to do with being assaulted or having advances made to him rather then just not having a ride and getting home late
And yes where was he all that time?

There is also a behavioral discrepancy in that. The two teenagers said, Lonnie was somewhat upset, maybe scared, when they picked him up. But just a few minutes later, he gets dropped of the car and walks toward Weippe - alone in the night.

Peter

 

[Robin Hood]

There is also a behavioral discrepancy in that. The two teenagers said, Lonnie was somewhat upset, maybe scared, when they picked him up. But just a few minutes later, he gets dropped of the car and walks toward Weippe - alone in the night.

Peter

I can see what you mean Peter but could Lonnie have been grateful to have been out of the immediate area ?

 

[Peter Brendt]

I can see what you mean Peter but could Lonnie have been grateful to have been out of the immediate area ?

That would depend how traumatic was, what happened to him before. But if he would have been raped before, that would be a major trauma and he wouldn't shake it off completely in just about two hours. And the teenagers say, he got his spirits back, after he was in the car with them. So, maybe someone made advances towards him, but there was no prior rape or assault with the intention to rape. Something minor traumatic.
However, you are right in your other post, it's not likely, this was a murder by chance. The road must have been virtually empty, so this wasn't a perv lurking far a victim there. Which makes it more likely, someone followed him. This someone had to have a car. It would be interesting to ask those (back then) teenagers, whether they saw a car following in the distance. But they wouldn't remember anyway. It was a road, cars are supposed to drive there.
And if someone followed Lonnie from the fair, it had to be a local, no carnie. This person followed Lonnie, then a car with Lonnie in there, had to pass the the point, turn somewhere without pulling attention, come back and pick Lonnie up (indicating, the person knew for which side of the road to look) and then know the site where to kill him.
However again, there is a catch. Lonnie was at 12:30 at this bridge, where the teenagers picked him up. Means, he was alone for a while. So why didn't the offender pick him up earlier?
I admit, I'm inclined to make here a little mental experiment and step in the killer's mind for a bit, but since that would include some pretty rude language, it would give probably give a mod a heart attack and in consequence I would get me a ban.

Peter

 

[katydid23]

If you look here- 1 year after Lonnie was killed they still do not know his movements that day, something so fundamental it smacks you in the face.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AAAIBAJ&pg=4954,1957737&dq=lonnie+jones&hl=en

We have his friend (who he told his Grandmother he was with) Duane Wilfong, now deceased.
The young Mr Wilfong some years later aged 16 is mentioned here

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AAIBAJ&pg=1555,1968164&dq=duane+wilfong&hl=en

Lonnie also told his Gran he would get a lift with a family called Jarrett, I believe it was misheard by the press and should have been 'Jared' There's a large-ish family in Weippe with this name and they have kids who would have schooled with Lonnie.

Then we have the step father who last saw Lonnie in a cafe on the saturday, he, according to the press didn't attend the fair.

Then, the two boys from Kamiah, Leroy Kidder and Bob Hill. News of the day says they went to the police and said they had picked up a hitchiker answering Lonnie description. This was confirmed by two girls from Orofino who the boys were out with.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...-VXAAAAIBAJ&sjid=OvYDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4236,4275719

All these folk and 1 year later his movements can't be accounted for.

BBM

Were the teens with 2 girls when they picked up Lonnie? I had never heard that before.

 

[Robin Hood]

BBM

Were the teens with 2 girls when they picked up Lonnie? I had never heard that before.

This mentions the girls, unsure how they fit in.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...IBAJ&pg=1617,2338265&dq=lonnie+bob+hill&hl=en

 

[Robin Hood]

That would depend how traumatic was, what happened to him before. But if he would have been raped before, that would be a major trauma and he wouldn't shake it off completely in just about two hours. And the teenagers say, he got his spirits back, after he was in the car with them. So, maybe someone made advances towards him, but there was no prior rape or assault with the intention to rape. Something minor traumatic.
However, you are right in your other post, it's not likely, this was a murder by chance. The road must have been virtually empty, so this wasn't a perv lurking far a victim there. Which makes it more likely, someone followed him. This someone had to have a car. It would be interesting to ask those (back then) teenagers, whether they saw a car following in the distance. But they wouldn't remember anyway. It was a road, cars are supposed to drive there.
And if someone followed Lonnie from the fair, it had to be a local, no carnie. This person followed Lonnie, then a car with Lonnie in there, had to pass the the point, turn somewhere without pulling attention, come back and pick Lonnie up (indicating, the person knew for which side of the road to look) and then know the site where to kill him.
However again, there is a catch. Lonnie was at 12:30 at this bridge, where the teenagers picked him up. Means, he was alone for a while. So why didn't the offender pick him up earlier?
I admit, I'm inclined to make here a little mental experiment and step in the killer's mind for a bit, but since that would include some pretty rude language, it would give probably give a mod a heart attack and in consequence I would get me a ban.

Peter

You make some good points.

What if Lonnie got away from his attacker and started home, the boys pick him up and drop him at the bridge. The attacker gets his own car from the park at the fair to chase Lonnie and follows the Kamiah boys down the road. He sees Lonnie get dropped off and then chases and picks him up.
This is where his fingers get scraped on the road as he is pulled backwards by his feet and bungled into the vehicle.

 

[Peter Brendt]

This mentions the girls, unsure how they fit in.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...IBAJ&pg=1617,2338265&dq=lonnie+bob+hill&hl=en

The girls are mentioned in the article from Sept 27, 1951. So they were in the picture all the time, but media, back then blessed with more decency, made them a short side note to keep them out of public attention. Back in 1951, girls going out all night with boys had still to expect some troubles from parents. And then, it was clear from the start, this case wouldn't involve girls from the start.

Peter

 

[Peter Brendt]

You make some good points.

What if Lonnie got away from his attacker and started home, the boys pick him up and drop him at the bridge. The attacker gets his own car from the park at the fair to chase Lonnie and follows the Kamiah boys down the road. He sees Lonnie get dropped off and then chases and picks him up.
This is where his fingers get scraped on the road as he is pulled backwards by his feet and bungled into the vehicle.

If there would have happened actually an attack earlier, Lonnie would have been more like upset, he would have been straight traumatized, even if the attack was, from the point of view of the offender, unsuccessful. Especially in case of an unsuccessful attack, there would be also no shame or stigma, so Lonnie could have called for the police. But from the description, the teenagers gave, I think, he was upset but not traumatized. More like, he noticed something, that worried him, but till this time rather on an abstract level.
However, you are probably right with where the fingers got scraped and how. I forgot about that detail. But if the offender had to drag him around, this would indicate, Lonnie knew him. Maybe only by sight. But he must have started to give resistance already outside of the car. No ruse, no lure, just physical strength. Not even a real blitz-attack, which means, the offender had no element of surprise.
I forgot, but do we have a description of Lonnie somewhere in terms of height, weight, physical fitness (as in running fast)?

Peter

 

[Robin Hood]

I think he was small for his age but I'd educate a guess he was fitter than most kids of his age are today. I would imagine he had tasks to do at home and no real junk food to speak of.

You have a point that he would have gone to the police if the attack was unsuccessful. Would he still have gone if something had taken place and he had hot footed it away thinking nobody would ever know if he could just get home.

I think, as you say, he picked up on something, abstract maybe.

 

[Robin Hood]

The blindfold, IMO, was for the return journey, so Lonnie didn't know where he was going. Then something changed and he was killed before arriving there.
I think it's a local person, somebody was thinking of the possibility he would escape or reconise a building.
just to add, one of the papers refered to Lonnie as 'handsome' from the odd pic I've seen he was, this probably got somebody else's attention.