If outsiders werent allowed in the pageants, who came up with the theory....

[lawstudent]

The absolutely insane pageant mom theory is like the only intruder theory that makes even a tiny bit of sense to me. Someone who wanted the competition destroyed and to destroy the family, who was dramatic and thought that random note was clever, and who wouldn't have raised any obvious suspicion if know one knew of her resentment and she kept her mouth shut. I don't at all think that is what happened, but it's an interesting thought.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I found this video of a 1991 episode of the Oprah Show with a child beauty queen and her mother:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RO6m5XeeH9M&list=UUKBnlTTgEnhIXv_c4LvvyMQ

On Sunday, "Where are they now?" on OWN will air an update on them. The little girl is about 6 years older than JonBenet. Back then, the concern was about whether the kid really wanted to do it, and whether the parent was being too pushy. Nothing about sexualization.

So if anyone is interested, this is the update:

Mari stopped doing pageants around middle school age. However, when she was in college, she decided to enter the system again and was crowned Miss Florida in 2006 and made the Top 10 at the Miss America pageant. She is now a psychotherapist, and her mother owns a store that sells pageant costumes.

 

[pageantmom]

The absolutely insane pageant mom theory is like the only intruder theory that makes even a tiny bit of sense to me. Someone who wanted the competition destroyed and to destroy the family, who was dramatic and thought that random note was clever, and who wouldn't have raised any obvious suspicion if know one knew of her resentment and she kept her mouth shut. I don't at all think that is what happened, but it's an interesting thought.

Sorry but that is just does not make sense at all. First, tons of kids do pageants, you can't just go around knocking out all the competition. Second, there will always be someone who is just as good as you if not better, just because you "get rid" of one person doesn't mean there won't be someone at the next pageant who can beat you.
But the biggest reason the pageant mom theory doesn't make sense, is that jonbenet was not competitive. She just wasn't. She was new, she only had a few titles, and she never supremed anything as far as I recall, she just won her age group a few times. She wasn't well known and she didn't have any major titles.
She was not what we call package kids. Package kids are "very facial" (silly pageant term for being pretty) and they have the clothes, the photos, and the modeling. Now, she was gorgeous, so she had that..but being pretty in a child beauty pageant actually won't help you a bit if you go in dressed all wrong and not knowing the modeling stuff. You have to have the whole package. A girl who isn't as pretty will almost always win over a gorgeous girl if the less pretty girl has better photos, costumes, and modeling.
Patsy dressed jonbenet all wrong and clothes are a huge thing in pageants. Jonbenet needed someone else besides Patsy to design her outfits.
Also, Jonbenet didn't have as good photos as the other girls and - this is a big one - her pro am modeling was awful. Sorry but it was. And in the 4-6 age group, pro am is really what separated out the winners from the losers. Pro am was a huge thing in the pageants back then. You had to be perfect.
Girls don't even do pro am anymore, though. My daughter does pageants now and she's never even learned it.

 

[midwest mama]

Sorry but that is just does not make sense at all. First, tons of kids do pageants, you can't just go around knocking out all the competition. Second, there will always be someone who is just as good as you if not better, just because you "get rid" of one person doesn't mean there won't be someone at the next pageant who can beat you.
But the biggest reason the pageant mom theory doesn't make sense, is that jonbenet was not competitive. She just wasn't. She was new, she only had a few titles, and she never supremed anything as far as I recall, she just won her age group a few times. She wasn't well known and she didn't have any major titles.
She was not what we call package kids. Package kids are "very facial" (silly pageant term for being pretty) and they have the clothes, the photos, and the modeling. Now, she was gorgeous, so she had that..but being pretty in a child beauty pageant actually won't help you a bit if you go in dressed all wrong and not knowing the modeling stuff. You have to have the whole package. A girl who isn't as pretty will almost always win over a gorgeous girl if the less pretty girl has better photos, costumes, and modeling.
Patsy dressed jonbenet all wrong and clothes are a huge thing in pageants. Jonbenet needed someone else besides Patsy to design her outfits.
Also, Jonbenet didn't have as good photos as the other girls and - this is a big one - her pro am modeling was awful. Sorry but it was. And in the 4-6 age group, pro am is really what separated out the winners from the losers. Pro am was a huge thing in the pageants back then. You had to be perfect.
Girls don't even do pro am anymore, though. My daughter does pageants now and she's never even learned it.

BBM. This all seems odd, since PR could afford whatever it took to have what JB would have needed if she was intent on JB winning pageants. Patsy had enough experience to know what it would take to have JB be truly competitive, yet she chose to display JB much more provocatively than was necessary.

She knew JB would need a solid portfolio. IIFC, she used a couple of different studios/photographers, including one who ran down the street naked, claiming to have no involvement in JB's death. I would think PR would know to choose a photographer with a strong pageant history, no matter the cost.

And, there was no professional modeling. Just some lessons from a teenage competitor.

You'd think JR's comments about this just being a fun mother/daughter adventure for PR and JB might have actually been the truth. But I find it hard to believe PR would have put JB in the spotlight so many times (with another entry planned for her in Feb of 1997) just for the fun of it.

Makes me wonder if the pageants were a showcase of JB for another reason.

 

[pageantmom]

BBM. This all seems odd, since PR could afford whatever it took to have what JB would have needed if she was intent on JB winning pageants. Patsy had enough experience to know what it would take to have JB be truly competitive, yet she chose to display JB much more provocatively than was necessary.

She knew JB would need a solid portfolio. IIFC, she used a couple of different studios/photographers, including one who ran down the street naked, claiming to have no involvement in JB's death. I would think PR would know to choose a photographer with a strong pageant history, no matter the cost.

And, there was no professional modeling. Just some lessons from a teenage competitor.

You'd think JR's comments about this just being a fun mother/daughter adventure for PR and JB might have actually been the truth. But I find it hard to believe PR would have put JB in the spotlight so many times (with another entry planned for her in Feb of 1997) just for the fun of it.

Makes me wonder if the pageants were a showcase of JB for another reason.

Well but here's the thing. Patsy did what Patsy liked. That's what it comes down to really. Patsy is the one who loved black and white. Pageants love bright colors for costumes. Not black and white. Nowadays you can get away with more, the unwritten rules are looser, but back then no way- black and white was the kiss of death. But that's what jonbenet wore because that is what PATSY liked. She had several black and white costumes made for Jonbenet. Enough that people kind of questioned her choices. Back then you never put black on a child for pageants (or red either for that matter).
It all boiled down to what Patsy liked, what Patsy thought was pretty or sexy or whatever. If she had wanted jonbenet to win, she needed to make different choices. She actually made very poor choices when it came to JonBenet's pageant career and I'm really not surprised that Jonbenet didn't win more.
It wasn't just the clothes, it was the photos too. And the modeling. All the pageant photos I've seen of jonbenet, the majority of them I would say can't really be used for a pageant, at least not if you want to be competitive..her portfolio shots are ok, but her headshots, no way. And the modeling. A lot of people use a "coach" who is just an older girl in pageants, but, JonBenet's pro-am modeling was terrible and slow. Maybe go back and watch on YouTube the Painted Babies documentary from 1995 which followed two pageant girls, compare Brooke Breedwell's western wear modeling routine in that show to the news videos of JonBenet modeling her little black and white suit. The differences are huge.
She also took her to sunburst which is just..odd, because sunburst is where newbies who don't know anything about pageants go. You'd think Patsy would know that.

 

[midwest mama]

Well but here's the thing. Patsy did what Patsy liked. That's what it comes down to really. Patsy is the one who loved black and white. Pageants love bright colors for costumes. Not black and white. Nowadays you can get away with more, the unwritten rules are looser, but back then no way- black and white was the kiss of death. But that's what jonbenet wore because that is what PATSY liked. She had several black and white costumes made for Jonbenet. Enough that people kind of questioned her choices. Back then you never put black on a child for pageants (or red either for that matter).
It all boiled down to what Patsy liked, what Patsy thought was pretty or sexy or whatever. If she had wanted jonbenet to win, she needed to make different choices. She actually made very poor choices when it came to JonBenet's pageant career and I'm really not surprised that Jonbenet didn't win more.
It wasn't just the clothes, it was the photos too. And the modeling. All the pageant photos I've seen of jonbenet, the majority of them I would say can't really be used for a pageant, at least not if you want to be competitive..her portfolio shots are ok, but her headshots, no way. And the modeling. A lot of people use a "coach" who is just an older girl in pageants, but, JonBenet's pro-am modeling was terrible and slow. Maybe go back and watch on YouTube the Painted Babies documentary from 1995 which followed two pageant girls, compare Brooke Breedwell's western wear modeling routine in that show to the news videos of JonBenet modeling her little black and white suit. The differences are huge.
She also took her to sunburst which is just..odd, because sunburst is where newbies who don't know anything about pageants go. You'd think Patsy would know that.

A question I hope you can answer,pageantmom, is it typical to present a portfolio of photos of the entrant dressed up as "characters"? JB was photographed looking like Red Riding Hood, a country western maiden twice, (including rodeo type rope in one), a farmer's daughter type (barefoot on a wooden porch in a sundress).

 

[pageantmom]

A question I hope you can answer,pageantmom, is it typical to present a portfolio of photos of the entrant dressed up as "characters"? JB was photographed looking like Red Riding Hood, a country western maiden twice, (including rodeo type rope in one), a farmer's daughter type (barefoot on a wooden porch in a sundress).

Yeah. A lot of pageants aren't doing portfolio anymore, but, the ones that do typically have it as a substitute for photogenic- meaning if you enter portfolio, and your photogenic score wasn't very good, you can substitute your portfolio score for it. Photogenic is often in the supreme breakdowns but sometimes it isn't. Nowadays composite is getting more popular than portfolio. Portfolio would be like 6-10 pics full length or three quarter length, where composite is one sheet with a few pictures on it together. So basically like putting the portfolio together on one sheet. My daughter has done a lot of different set ups...five little monkeys jumping on the bed, Alice in wonderland, Audrey Hepburn, disneys one hundred one dalmations, country girl type farm scenes, old Hollywood glamour type, etc. You can basically do whatever idea you think of.

 

[Charterhouse]

We are not a pageant family. But, I can tell you one thing, if my 7 year old granddaughter did not want to do something like this SHE would not. You can't make a 7 year old do all that if they don't want to. You might be able to talk them into one portion but not all if they are not interested. At least you could not make my gd do it. JMO

I think PR and the pageant crew (mother and sisters) thought they knew what was best (outfits pictures etc.) and what they did when they were in pageants. You know PR she was not one to take others advice.

Sorry but in this case I don't think pageants had a thing to do with her death. JMO

 

[pageantmom]

We are not a pageant family. But, I can tell you one thing, if my 7 year old granddaughter did not want to do something like this SHE would not. You can't make a 7 year old do all that if they don't want to. You might be able to talk them into one portion but not all if they are not interested. At least you could not make my gd do it. JMO

I think PR and the pageant crew (mother and sisters) thought they knew what was best (outfits pictures etc.) and what they did when they were in pageants. You know PR she was not one to take others advice.

Sorry but in this case I don't think pageants had a thing to do with her death. JMO

I agree nothing to do with her death. And I also have to say as a girl who did kiddie pageants at the same time as jonbenet and now who my own daughter does pageants, I have to say that we see very, very few girls who don't want to be there.
Now that doesn't mean they enjoy EVERY part of the pageant: most kids love swimwear and OOC because those are energetic routines but HATE beauty walk because it is SLOW and boring...some girls love being onstage but they hate to practice at home, which isn't really unusual for a kid to enjoy the fun part of the hobby but then not like practicing...some girls love all the makeup but don't like getting their hair done, etc- for any activity there are sometimes parts you don't like about it.
But on the whole pretty much every girl wants to be there.
Now, maybe some girls who think they enjoy it but they don't know anything else, this is just what they've always done since they were toddlers..but that's another story.

 

[DeDee]

I have not been able to locate this picture of Patsy Ramsey on the internet so I photographed pages 102 and 103 of A Mother Gone Bad by Andrew Hodges, M.D.





It is my opinion that the pageants were connected to the murder in a roundabout way. For instance, who among us has not yet viewed the video of JBR modeling the black swimwear with removable long white cover-up. As she performs for the judges, she turns her back to unfasten the skirt, and turns back around to face the judges while holding the skirt high in her right hand and exposing her legs. It is a look that may be appealing to ped*philes that leads me to question that perhaps the parents of contestants are able to purchase the pageants' videos. pageantmom, perhaps you may know the answer.

JR's remark that he tried to arrive at JonBenét's pageants in time for seeing the talent portion is resounding noise. Oh, the innocence of this dad who only wishes to view the talent portion of his daughter's performance leaves me doubtful to the veracity of the statement.

omo moo mhoo

 

[Frigga]

Hey DeDee, I had never seen that picture of Patsy! Would you mind giving a brief synopsis of that book. I haven't read that one. Thanks, if you have time!

 

[Frigga]

I find it so interesting that she dresses JonBenet to look like herself. The showgirl outfit that she wore in her pageant days and the one she had made for JonBenet really stood out to me- it is fascinating. Especially the fact that Patsy was a woman in these dresses and JonBenet was a little girl. Weird... very weird. MOO.

 

[DeDee]

Hey DeDee, I had never seen that picture of Patsy! Would you mind giving a brief synopsis of that book. I haven't read that one. Thanks, if you have time!

Dr. Hodges is a psychiatrist who used a technique referred to as "decoding the [subliminal] deeper mind" to analyze the RN. An FBI agent informed Commander Beckner of the doctor's analysis of the RN in Dec. 1997. The two communicated at length.

The book, A Mother Gone Bad, is a fascinating read. Dr. Hodges psychoanalyzes, by using the decoding technique, the RN and also the three Ramsey Christmas letters from 1995, 1996 & 1997 which was spellbinding, imo. Dr. Hodges also analyzed JRs "Daddy's Little Hooker" letter to the artist named Paul. A portion is as follows:

"We, as a family, have lost one of the most precious things in our lives, ..."

Dr. Hodges concluded that John, in that statement, saw his daughter as a "thing", an object he could control.

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-paul-hidalgo.htm

Dr. Hodges extends a thank you to Reporter Coffman in the acknowledgements.

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-coffman-ramsey-photo.htm

SPOILER ALERT: His conclusion, if I may, is that PR was the primary killer of JBR when she caused the head blow when she caught JR molesting their daughter.

Mine is a signed copy. There are interesting book reviews to read at Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Mother-Gone-B...=1410231436&sr=1-1&keywords=A+Mother+Gone+Bad

 

[eileenhawkeye]

One thing I wonder about is if Patsy and Nedra wanted Patsy's daughter to be Miss America one day, why did Patsy wait so long to have kids? She married in '80 or '81, Burke was born in '87. He was almost three when she got pregnant with JonBenet. You would think that she would have started having kids right after her wedding. I feel like if Patsy had trouble getting pregnant, we would have heard about it.

 

[pageantmom]

I have not been able to locate this picture of Patsy Ramsey on the internet so I photographed pages 102 and 103 of A Mother Gone Bad by Andrew Hodges, M.D.


View attachment 58415

It is my opinion that the pageants were connected to the murder in a roundabout way. For instance, who among us has not yet viewed the video of JBR modeling the black swimwear with removable long white cover-up. As she performs for the judges, she turns her back to unfasten the skirt, and turns back around to face the judges while holding the skirt high in her right hand and exposing her legs. It is a look that may be appealing to ped*philes that leads me to question that perhaps the parents of contestants are able to purchase the pageants' videos. pageantmom, perhaps you may know the answer.

JR's remark that he tried to arrive at JonBenét's pageants in time for seeing the talent portion is resounding noise. Oh, the innocence of this dad who only wishes to view the talent portion of his daughter's performance leaves me doubtful to the veracity of the statement.

omo moo mhoo

Thanks for posting those photos.
They really speak to me: It tells me Patsy was not that interested in doing what was needed for jonbenet to win. If she had wanted jonbenet to be a name kid on the circuit, she would have made very different choices for her pageant career. I don't think winning itself was that important to patsy. She was more interested in Jonbenet mirroring her, in jonbenet being a mini Patsy, a way for Patsy to feel young and beautiful and sexy again because she herself couldn't anymore. Jonbenet was simply an extension of Patsy's own body.
This is just my opinion based on the choices she made.

Oh and about removable items on costumes..that's pretty common in glitz pageants to have a rip-off skirt with shorts underneath, or a piece of clothing that gets turned inside out during a routine, or a jacket you take off and throw in the air and catch etc. I don't do that with my daughter because I think it looks trashy to rip off clothing during a routine but she does do where she takes a jacket off and flips it. Jonbenet removing the little side pieces on her skirt isn't a big deal, most girls do it.
As for videos, there's almost always a photographer and videographer and you have to buy your videos and stuff through them. The parents get the order forms..I don't think anyone can randomly walk up and order photos of the kids or anything like that.

I think John said he only watched talent as a way to distance himself from the pageants, because he knew the public wouldn't approve of JonBenet's pageants so if he acted like he just focused on talent and not let's say swimsuit then he would look better.

 

[DeDee]

Thanks for posting those photos.
They really speak to me: It tells me Patsy was not that interested in doing what was needed for jonbenet to win. If she had wanted jonbenet to be a name kid on the circuit, she would have made very different choices for her pageant career. I don't think winning itself was that important to patsy. She was more interested in Jonbenet mirroring her, in jonbenet being a mini Patsy, a way for Patsy to feel young and beautiful and sexy again because she herself couldn't anymore. Jonbenet was simply an extension of Patsy's own body.
This is just my opinion based on the choices she made.

Oh and about removable items on costumes..that's pretty common in glitz pageants to have a rip-off skirt with shorts underneath, or a piece of clothing that gets turned inside out during a routine, or a jacket you take off and throw in the air and catch etc. I don't do that with my daughter because I think it looks trashy to rip off clothing during a routine but she does do where she takes a jacket off and flips it. Jonbenet removing the little side pieces on her skirt isn't a big deal, most girls do it.
As for videos, there's almost always a photographer and videographer and you have to buy your videos and stuff through them. The parents get the order forms..I don't think anyone can randomly walk up and order photos of the kids or anything like that.

I think John said he only watched talent as a way to distance himself from the pageants, because he knew the public wouldn't approve of JonBenet's pageants so if he acted like he just focused on talent and not let's say swimsuit then he would look better.

Oh and about removable items on costumes..that's pretty common in glitz pageants to have a rip-off skirt with shorts underneath, or a piece of clothing that gets turned inside out during a routine, or a jacket you take off and throw in the air and catch etc. I don't do that with my daughter because I think it looks trashy to rip off clothing during a routine but she does do where she takes a jacket off and flips it. Jonbenet removing the little side pieces on her skirt isn't a big deal, most girls do it.

Respectfully, pageantmom, there was no claim of JBR wearing a rip-off skirt with shorts underneath. Nor did I mention removing a jacket. JBR was wearing a one piece black swimsuit, removed the entire skirt coverup and turned around to face the crowd with the skirt held high in her right hand. It was my mistake that you had seen the video of her doing this. It is not simply "removing the little side pieces on her skirt".

The modeling scene I oppose and refer to begins at 1:25 or if you prefer not to click on links it is listed on youtube entitled "JonBenet Ramsey-All Good Things Come To An End".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xt1ahrHNKy0

Nor did I in any way infer that total strangers could walk up and order a pageant video. This is the quote from my post:

It is a look that may be appealing to ped*philes that leads me to question that perhaps the parents of contestants are able to purchase the pageants' videos.

Thank you for your response. It is now my understanding that the Rs could, and most likely did, purchase the pageant videos for their personal pleasure. Whether or not these videos were shared by the Rs with any others is not a question we can answer.

moo omho omo and all that jazz

 

[Tadpole12]

Heyya pageantmom

TY for sharing the information concerning pageants.
"pageant career" is a new terminology for me.

 

[pageantmom]

Respectfully, pageantmom, there was no claim of JBR wearing a rip-off skirt with shorts underneath. Nor did I mention removing a jacket. JBR was wearing a one piece black swimsuit, removed the entire skirt coverup and turned around to face the crowd with the skirt held high in her right hand. It was my mistake that you had seen the video of her doing this. It is not simply "removing the little side pieces on her skirt".

The modeling scene I oppose and refer to begins at 1:25 or if you prefer not to click on links it is listed on youtube entitled "JonBenet Ramsey-All Good Things Come To An End".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xt1ahrHNKy0

Nor did I in any way infer that total strangers could walk up and order a pageant video. This is the quote from my post:



Thank you for your response. It is now my understanding that the Rs could, and most likely did, purchase the pageant videos for their personal pleasure. Whether or not these videos were shared by the Rs with any others is not a question we can answer.

moo omho omo and all that jazz

Sorry I was thinking of a different outfit.
I see now that you meant her weird black swimsuit with the slave sandal things (ribbons) and the filmy cover up. That outfit is all wrong for a pageant but I can see Patsy liking it. But anyway sorry I was thinking of a different costume she had.

Most kids don't wear a cover up during swimsuit, but I wouldn't make much of her taking it off during the routine. First it was swimsuit, she HAD to remove her cover up. And second, if you remove a piece of clothing during a routine you nearly always remove it mid-turn, while your back is facing the audience.

I'm sure Patsy bought videos. Nearly every parent buys the videos (unless they couldn't financially but Patsy wouldn't have that problem).
Generally you buy the videos so you can watch them to improve for next time- catch your mistakes and fix them.

It would be VERY interesting to know if any of the Ramsey's relatives or friends ever asked to borrow JB's pageant videos?

 

[pageantmom]

Heyya pageantmom

TY for sharing the information concerning pageants.
"pageant career" is a new terminology for me.

Haha, it's kind of stupid term since no matter how much you win, winnings are only a drop in the bucket compared to how much you spend just to go. Trust me nobody's making money...well, that's not true- the director is making money, and the photographers and HM are. Moms and kids, nope.

 

[DeeDee249]

Haha, it's kind of stupid term since no matter how much you win, winnings are only a drop in the bucket compared to how much you spend just to go. Trust me nobody's making money...well, that's not true- the director is making money, and the photographers and HM are. Moms and kids, nope.

Except Honey Boo-Boo and Mama June....