If you look at it logically it's very clear who did it!

[ispywithmylittleeye]

Your point about the sustained ferocity of the crime is I think spot on, as well as the observation of the demeanor of both parents when police arrived.

I think that the lurid details of the cover up point to needing to hide the fact that there was SA going on. If it were just BR & JBR "playing doctor", I don't think that would've prompted feeling the need to do what was ultimately done to her. In my mind it had to be something much more serious that was felt could be obvious upon examination.

So two of the discussed theories come to mind. It could have been a case of EA gone wrong, with the blow to the head to stop her from screaming, or as I have suspected, PR walking in on the act of SA by JR and taking a swing at him from which he ducked, and hitting JBR by mistake. I do believe that the initial act which caused what was thought to be catastrophic injury was an accident and not deliberate. But what followed they felt needed to be done to cover up the SA aspect.

IMO the RN is clearly a red herring. Someone with the intent to kidnap would have done things differently, and most certainly an actual FF would have methodically executed such an operation. The inference of a FF being involved I think points to JR's job and company, at which of course the R's attempted to capitalize on by claiming it was someone within the company who had a grudge against JR. Someone who wasn't bright enough to realize that a FF would have been after far more than $118,0000 and would not have risked being discovered taking the child to the basement & sexually assaulting her if the intent was a kidnapping for $$$$ from someone with ties to the big pockets of an aerospace and national defense company. There is no doubt in my mind that PR wrote the note, it just doesn't make any sense that anyone else did. And while I believe it points directly to the R's it did accomplish its intent, which was to muddy the waters enough to create confusion which allowed for evidence to be destroyed or tampered with and a crime scene that was not recognized as such for hours, which of course meant contamination.

I go back and forth on the SA. JR or BR. I see JR as more of a ladies man. Although he could be both. One thought in reading many posts on this case, many people have a hard time thinking BR could be responsible. Could the Ramseys anticipated that kind of response from police? Right? JR, blame the kid...
My other thought is there is first hand knowledge of the Doctor Play and more than once.
The dictionary dog eared on the word incest. Adults know what the word means. I feel that word was used in a reprimand regarding the doctor play and BR looked it up. There was also the childbearing books and the children were seeing a therapist . I don't believe they required years of counseling because PR had cancer.
I think these things point to a problem in the home. I'm not convinced a SA happend that night . I believe it was staging. If it was JR, then PR was complicit in covering for him. I don't see PR doing that.
I've felt the tension between them that morning was regarding the cover up.

 

[CloudedTruth]

I go back and forth on the SA. JR or BR. I see JR as more of a ladies man. Although he could be both. One thought in reading many posts on this case, many people have a hard time thinking BR could be responsible. Could the Ramseys anticipated that kind of response from police? Right? JR, blame the kid...
My other thought is there is first hand knowledge of the Doctor Play and more than once.
The dictionary dog eared on the word incest. Adults know what the word means. I feel that word was used in a reprimand regarding the doctor play and BR looked it up. There was also the childbearing books and the children were seeing a therapist . I don't believe they required years of counseling because PR had cancer.
I think these things point to a problem in the home. I'm not convinced a SA happend that night . I believe it was staging. If it was JR, then PR was complicit in covering for him. I don't see PR doing that.
I've felt the tension between them that morning was regarding the cover up.

Well, when all the details of the autopsy report were finally released, it was very clear that SA had occurred, and prior to the night in question. There were also some who had noticed that JBR had become rather clingy to PR in the weeks before her death. The incident at the party on 12/23, where JBR got upset and was crying that she's not pretty, as well as the mysterious 911 call. The bedwetting by both children plus BR's scatolia. BR had apparently started being seen by a therapist before they moved to Boulder from Atlanta. The child behavioral books. Taken individually could each be seen as not a big deal, but added all together and I think it points to some major dysfunction of some sort within the family.

I also think that the relationship between JR and PR was strained. Two big events were the death of his oldest daughter, which he reportedly was deeply affected by as well as PR's cancer. JR was known to be quiet, and from what I have read he often retreated somewhere all by himself to cry over the eldest daughter. He also worked a lot, was gone on business trips a lot and by all accounts was emotional distant. PR's main support during her illness and treatment was her mother, not JR. She spent a lot of time in isolation from the other family members after treatment because of her reduced immunity. The relationship was described by some others as being more of a business relationship that a marriage, it was transactional as opposed to romantic & emotional. The two support people that LE sent to the house to help them through things on 12/26 stated that they thought they were dealing with a couple that was either separated or divorced. It would not surprise me to learn that JR was turning elsewhere for his physical needs.

I think whatever happened that night, there are two components. Covering up the death and I believe also covering up the SA. Otherwise the kidnapping scenario doesn't really make all that much sense. So, yes.....I believe there was SA going on, and given what the autopsy report details, my personal belief was that it went beyond what a 9 year old would do. The dictionary could be BR looking it up, perhaps after hearing someone in the house discuss it. Or it could be a clue from one parent. And it may tie into the RN, because in the RN I get the distinct impression some of it was written in anger towards JR. Why would that be?

It's also interesting to note that apparently PR called Dr. Beuf 3 times on 12/17 after hours. Two of those calls were only 9 minutes apart from one another. That feels like there was a sense of urgency. Of course when questioned about this later, PR resorted to her very common response of, "I don't remember".

I do think that PR would cover for JR. In my opinion she knew something was going on, but she didn't report it. That makes her complicit. Or maybe that's what the calls were about on the 17th? But not getting a response she changed her mind? I think both JR & PR had what they felt was something on the other, which is why they came together for the cover up. JR was PR's source of financial security, income, insurance, all of that. Had he been sent to prison, all that would have been at risk. And we know that she was kind of obsessed with the fact that her cancer could recur at any time. PR enjoyed her life of wealth and privilege, and so did JR. The truth would have put an end to all of that.

 

[Officer Dibble]

Well, when all the details of the autopsy report were finally released, it was very clear that SA had occurred, and prior to the night in question. There were also some who had noticed that JBR had become rather clingy to PR in the weeks before her death. The incident at the party on 12/23, where JBR got upset and was crying that she's not pretty, as well as the mysterious 911 call. The bedwetting by both children plus BR's scatolia. BR had apparently started being seen by a therapist before they moved to Boulder from Atlanta. The child behavioral books. Taken individually could each be seen as not a big deal, but added all together and I think it points to some major dysfunction of some sort within the family.

I also think that the relationship between JR and PR was strained. Two big events were the death of his oldest daughter, which he reportedly was deeply affected by as well as PR's cancer. JR was known to be quiet, and from what I have read he often retreated somewhere all by himself to cry over the eldest daughter. He also worked a lot, was gone on business trips a lot and by all accounts was emotional distant. PR's main support during her illness and treatment was her mother, not JR. She spent a lot of time in isolation from the other family members after treatment because of her reduced immunity. The relationship was described by some others as being more of a business relationship that a marriage, it was transactional as opposed to romantic & emotional. The two support people that LE sent to the house to help them through things on 12/26 stated that they thought they were dealing with a couple that was either separated or divorced. It would not surprise me to learn that JR was turning elsewhere for his physical needs.

I think whatever happened that night, there are two components. Covering up the death and I believe also covering up the SA. Otherwise the kidnapping scenario doesn't really make all that much sense. So, yes.....I believe there was SA going on, and given what the autopsy report details, my personal belief was that it went beyond what a 9 year old would do. The dictionary could be BR looking it up, perhaps after hearing someone in the house discuss it. Or it could be a clue from one parent. And it may tie into the RN, because in the RN I get the distinct impression some of it was written in anger towards JR. Why would that be?

It's also interesting to note that apparently PR called Dr. Beuf 3 times on 12/17 after hours. Two of those calls were only 9 minutes apart from one another. That feels like there was a sense of urgency. Of course when questioned about this later, PR resorted to her very common response of, "I don't remember".

I do think that PR would cover for JR. In my opinion she knew something was going on, but she didn't report it. That makes her complicit. Or maybe that's what the calls were about on the 17th? But not getting a response she changed her mind? I think both JR & PR had what they felt was something on the other, which is why they came together for the cover up. JR was PR's source of financial security, income, insurance, all of that. Had he been sent to prison, all that would have been at risk. And we know that she was kind of obsessed with the fact that her cancer could recur at any time. PR enjoyed her life of wealth and privilege, and so did JR. The truth would have put an end to all of that.

You make some very interesting points. JMO. MOO

 

[TizerisT]

Well, when all the details of the autopsy report were finally released, it was very clear that SA had occurred, and prior to the night in question. There were also some who had noticed that JBR had become rather clingy to PR in the weeks before her death. The incident at the party on 12/23, where JBR got upset and was crying that she's not pretty, as well as the mysterious 911 call. The bedwetting by both children plus BR's scatolia. BR had apparently started being seen by a therapist before they moved to Boulder from Atlanta. The child behavioral books. Taken individually could each be seen as not a big deal, but added all together and I think it points to some major dysfunction of some sort within the family.

I also think that the relationship between JR and PR was strained. Two big events were the death of his oldest daughter, which he reportedly was deeply affected by as well as PR's cancer. JR was known to be quiet, and from what I have read he often retreated somewhere all by himself to cry over the eldest daughter. He also worked a lot, was gone on business trips a lot and by all accounts was emotional distant. PR's main support during her illness and treatment was her mother, not JR. She spent a lot of time in isolation from the other family members after treatment because of her reduced immunity. The relationship was described by some others as being more of a business relationship that a marriage, it was transactional as opposed to romantic & emotional. The two support people that LE sent to the house to help them through things on 12/26 stated that they thought they were dealing with a couple that was either separated or divorced. It would not surprise me to learn that JR was turning elsewhere for his physical needs.

I think whatever happened that night, there are two components. Covering up the death and I believe also covering up the SA. Otherwise the kidnapping scenario doesn't really make all that much sense. So, yes.....I believe there was SA going on, and given what the autopsy report details, my personal belief was that it went beyond what a 9 year old would do. The dictionary could be BR looking it up, perhaps after hearing someone in the house discuss it. Or it could be a clue from one parent. And it may tie into the RN, because in the RN I get the distinct impression some of it was written in anger towards JR. Why would that be?

It's also interesting to note that apparently PR called Dr. Beuf 3 times on 12/17 after hours. Two of those calls were only 9 minutes apart from one another. That feels like there was a sense of urgency. Of course when questioned about this later, PR resorted to her very common response of, "I don't remember".

I do think that PR would cover for JR. In my opinion she knew something was going on, but she didn't report it. That makes her complicit. Or maybe that's what the calls were about on the 17th? But not getting a response she changed her mind? I think both JR & PR had what they felt was something on the other, which is why they came together for the cover up. JR was PR's source of financial security, income, insurance, all of that. Had he been sent to prison, all that would have been at risk. And we know that she was kind of obsessed with the fact that her cancer could recur at any time. PR enjoyed her life of wealth and privilege, and so did JR. The truth would have put an end to all of that.

A massive tangled web of intrigue in which you have a thousand assumptions. It's hard to take any of this seriously.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

I also think that the relationship between JR and PR was strained. Two big events were the death of his oldest daughter, which he reportedly was deeply affected by as well as PR's cancer. JR was known to be quiet, and from what I have read he often retreated somewhere all by himself to cry over the eldest daughter. He also worked a lot, was gone on business trips a lot and by all accounts was emotional distant. PR's main support during her illness and treatment was her mother, not JR. She spent a lot of time in isolation from the other family members after treatment because of her reduced immunity. The relationship was described by some others as being more of a business relationship that a marriage, it was transactional as opposed to romantic & emotional. The two support people that LE sent to the house to help them through things on 12/26 stated that they thought they were dealing with a couple that was either separated or divorced. It would not surprise me to learn that JR was turning elsewhere for his physical needs.

I think you make some excellent points .Where my opinion differs is regarding the above assumptions of others regarding the Ramseys relationship. Relationships can ebb and flow especially if someone is suffering from grief. 5 years means little in terms of grief subsiding when you've lost a child. The fact that JR was going in the attic to cry may only mean he did not want to burden others with his grief. He was very successful. That kind of success doesn't come without long hours of work. I was a work widow to a successful man and it had no reflection on me. Workaholics
can be driven by many things, success, money, ego, family culture, depression, and escape. Some people need far less from their partners than others. When PR had cancer, her mother stepping in makes sense to me. JR did not get rich by being at home. I will say that if BR is on the spectrum, the apple often doesn't fall far from the tree and you will often see glimpses of ASD behaviors in a parent. JR can come off very cold but crying in the attic contradicts that for me.
There are too many ways to look at this case from alternating perspectives. One thought could have been JR blamed PR for the kids problems because she was doing the majority of the child rearing. I agree there was a lot going on in the household but I feel outsiders can often not have a clue as to what goes on in friends or families Relationships be they good or bad due to us all not having the same needs and lifes hardships having a huge influence on our emotions.

 

[proust20]

In attempting to determine the sequence of head blow and asphyxiation, it comes down to which deadly act is more likely as a cover for the other. JonBenet died from asphyxiation; although, the head wound would have been fatal over time. It's peculiar that her skull did not bleed visibly.

If the head blow came first, the attacker must have been surprised, perhaps relieved, that there was no wound showing. And she was not killed immediately by the blow, while it may have seemed to the attacker that she was. OK - but next comes the 45+ minute gap leading up to the ligature being applied. How does it make sense that the brutal strangling is somehow meant to cover over the head blow, which would have been dealt in a moment of rage? Although, the savagery of the ligature does not indicate a lessening of that rage after 45 min.

The strangling could have occurred first if it were linked with the SA, both chronic and of the murder night. The head blow would work as staging to cover up the final assault. The 45 minute gap could have been spent on the rest of the extensive staging, e.g. locating the size 12s. The lack of blood was fortunately nonincriminating.

On the other hand, the SA would be a reason why an unconscious but alive JB could not be taken to the hospital. Since it figures in both scenarios, it provides the best motive.

 

[Meara]

The sequence of head blow and asphyxiation can bee seen in terms of the motivation for the murder. If it were a moment of rage, the head blow seems likely first. If directly linked with SA, the strangling would come first. Either possibility could have been accidental. When dealing with the issue of the strangulation, there are some who think that JonnBenet was manually strangled, and the ligature was applied after. The red turtleneck is often mentioned in this regard.

My difficulty with the moment of rage theory is that it does not explain the sustained ferocity of the crime. The minimum 45 minute gap between the dual means of lethality is particularly grotesque. Then, there is all the time spent on the lurid staging. These details lead away from the killer being a creature of impulse. Also. when BPD arrived, PR was fully dressed and made up, JR was 'cordial', and Burke slept the sleep of babes. From totally out of control to nothing-to-see-here in a few hours? Patsy was extraordinarily bold in inviting over an audience. No stage fright there. What could go wrong?

I do get that all criminals cannot be said to have criminal backgrounds. Of course, we do not know if JB had been the only victim of the abuser(s). Was JB killed by an abuser? If not, how to explain the final assault? It's interesting that while the SA is part of the WC scene. nothing in the RN refers to this aspect. Choosing terrorists as the purported authors of the RN is taken from movies; but, this choice of the FF necessarily elides guilty knowledge of what JB was undergoing. The Rs never accepted the autopsy results. Their version could not allowed for it. And so. the Rs have never been able to come up with a motive, nor with anything but the sketchiest of scenarios. But hey - it worked!

It's interesting that while the SA is part of the WC scene. nothing in the RN refers to this aspect. Choosing terrorists as the purported authors of the RN is taken from movies; but, this choice of the FF necessarily elides guilty knowledge of what JB was undergoing.
Excellent observation.


My difficulty with the moment of rage theory is that it does not explain the sustained ferocity of the crime.

And yet the sustained ferocity is not reflected in the way JBR was wrapped in her blanket or the placement of her favorite Barbie nightgown next to her. The contrast can be explained by the theory that one person assaulted and killed JBR, another staged the scene. But then there's this: The garroting was done with such minimal force that the hyoid bone wasn't broken, nor were the strap muscles damaged. One person, then, for the head bash, and a different one later for both the garroting and the staging? But what then of the sustained ferocity? It's possible that JBR was manually strangled before she was garroted - so, one person for the head bash and the strangling, another for the garroting and staging. But then, the head bash and strangling would be proximate in time, and the garroting and staging would come, without ferocity, 45 min. later. It's a puzzle, isn't it?

 

[CloudedTruth]

In attempting to determine the sequence of head blow and asphyxiation, it comes down to which deadly act is more likely as a cover for the other. JonBenet died from asphyxiation; although, the head wound would have been fatal over time. It's peculiar that her skull did not bleed visibly.

If the head blow came first, the attacker must have been surprised, perhaps relieved, that there was no wound showing. And she was not killed immediately by the blow, while it may have seemed to the attacker that she was. OK - but next comes the 45+ minute gap leading up to the ligature being applied. How does it make sense that the brutal strangling is somehow meant to cover over the head blow, which would have been dealt in a moment of rage? Although, the savagery of the ligature does not indicate a lessening of that rage after 45 min.

The strangling could have occurred first if it were linked with the SA, both chronic and of the murder night. The head blow would work as staging to cover up the final assault. The 45 minute gap could have been spent on the rest of the extensive staging, e.g. locating the size 12s. The lack of blood was fortunately nonincriminating.

On the other hand, the SA would be a reason why an unconscious but alive JB could not be taken to the hospital. Since it figures in both scenarios, it provides the best motive.

It is a conundrum, isn't it?

I absolutely believe that the SA is a key component to the story. As to why they did not take her to the hospital, it is also a possibility that they did not realize she was still alive, at least at first. I think it also speaks to the fact that whatever it was that happened, they did not want it to be known to anyone. My personal opinion is that the garroting was a part of the cover up for the SA, not the head blow, to make it look like someone was performing EA on her. Then they could say that the SA happened only that night. We know that Dr. Beuf did not suspect that SA was happening. There are often not obvious signs that someone, even a physician would recognize unless an extensive internal exam was done. We know that he did not perform such an exam on JBR, so it's possible that they thought it could be hidden, or covered up.

I think the lack of scalp laceration which would have meant visible bleeding is due to what was used to hit her. Could not have been anything with sharp edges, the golf club is a possibility especially if it were a wood. I recall that JR asked PR's sister to retrieve his golf clubs from the house when she was allowed to remove some things. LE did not allow that, but it does beg the question why would he want those out of the house? It wasn't the time of year to play golf, and what grieving father would want to anyway?

 

[Gunther Toody]

It's interesting that while the SA is part of the WC scene. nothing in the RN refers to this aspect. Choosing terrorists as the purported authors of the RN is taken from movies; but, this choice of the FF necessarily elides guilty knowledge of what JB was undergoing.
Excellent observation.


My difficulty with the moment of rage theory is that it does not explain the sustained ferocity of the crime.

And yet the sustained ferocity is not reflected in the way JBR was wrapped in her blanket or the placement of her favorite Barbie nightgown next to her. The contrast can be explained by the theory that one person assaulted and killed JBR, another staged the scene. But then there's this: The garroting was done with such minimal force that the hyoid bone wasn't broken, nor were the strap muscles damaged. One person, then, for the head bash, and a different one later for both the garroting and the staging? But what then of the sustained ferocity? It's possible that JBR was manually strangled before she was garroted - so, one person for the head bash and the strangling, another for the garroting and staging. But then, the head bash and strangling would be proximate in time, and the garroting and staging would come, without ferocity, 45 min. later. It's a puzzle, isn't it?

It's also possible that the head basher wasn't aware of the severity of the injury.
Wasn't it only discovered how bad it was when the scalp was peeled back?
Maybe that's why the garrote was used.

So we're thinking it was likely overkill when perhaps the killer just didn't realize the head wound was so bad...

Or, I could just be wrong!

 

[Meara]

Forgot to include your comment, CloudedTruth! See below...

 

[Meara]

It is a conundrum, isn't it?

I absolutely believe that the SA is a key component to the story. As to why they did not take her to the hospital, it is also a possibility that they did not realize she was still alive, at least at first. I think it also speaks to the fact that whatever it was that happened, they did not want it to be known to anyone. My personal opinion is that the garroting was a part of the cover up for the SA, not the head blow, to make it look like someone was performing EA on her. Then they could say that the SA happened only that night. We know that Dr. Beuf did not suspect that SA was happening. There are often not obvious signs that someone, even a physician would recognize unless an extensive internal exam was done. We know that he did not perform such an exam on JBR, so it's possible that they thought it could be hidden, or covered up.

I think the lack of scalp laceration which would have meant visible bleeding is due to what was used to hit her. Could not have been anything with sharp edges, the golf club is a possibility especially if it were a wood. I recall that JR asked PR's sister to retrieve his golf clubs from the house when she was allowed to remove some things. LE did not allow that, but it does beg the question why would he want those out of the house? It wasn't the time of year to play golf, and what grieving father would want to anyway?

I'm familiar with this theory and agree that a golf club is a strong contender for the weapon. Have you seen otg's amazing thread about this? In case not - and I'm not pretending to do it justice - he demonstrated (and illustrated) why he believes the displaced skull fragment was ovoid rather than rectangular. He then applied geometry to show that the weapon must have been cylindrical: an oval is produced by the intersection of a cylinder with a sphere. Using autopsy data and photographs, he was able to obtain a more precise measurement of the oval, to extrapolate the curvature of the skull and, from those, to calculate the diameter of the cylinder that struck it: 1/2 - 1 inch, approx. And finally, IIRC, he listed corresponding objects in the home. The two best fits were the shaft of a golf club and a thin metal pole (captured in a photo) propped against the basement wall by the water heater. Another member noted that, when a club is swung back before moving forwards, the flexible shaft makes it capable of delivering greater force towards the end; i.e., greater than an inflexible object would. This means a club multiplies and concentrates the strength of the person swinging it. In otg's reconstruction of events, then, the attacker held the golf club by the head or near it to deliver the blow. It would not have lacerated JBR's scalp. If the wrapped handle of the club struck JBR's skull, this would have protected the scalp. And one more detail - Unlike the miscellaneous clubs found propped upright elsewhere, the ones near the wine cellar were in golf bags. Anyone who reached for a club would have grasped it by the head or near it.

I believe otg's theory is correct because it's grounded in concrete particulars and extremely well argued. And yes, it sure would explain why JR wanted that one set of clubs out of the house. It also persuades me that the flashlight is unrelated to the assault and kind of a red herring. One or more Rams used it in the middle of the night to avoid turning lights on. JAR had given it to JR as a gift and certainly would have put batteries in beforehand to make sure it worked and was ready to use. It's possible to insert the batteries holding them by the curved bottom edge, leaving no prints. I was able to do this with my own Maglite.

otg's theory of the weapon suggests that JBR was alive until she went to the basement, and that the head blow and strangulation happened in the same place, the wide end of the hallway just outside the wine cellar.

Sorry, I realize my comment isn't responsive to the SA aspects of the crime. It just seemed like a good time to argue in favor of the golf club theory.

 

[CloudedTruth]

It's also possible that the head basher wasn't aware of the severity of the injury.
Wasn't it only discovered how bad it was when the scalp was peeled back?
Maybe that's why the garrote was used.

So we're thinking it was likely overkill when perhaps the killer just didn't realize the head wound was so bad...

Or, I could just be wrong!

I agree that while it’s possible they didn’t realize the severity of the head wound, I think it’s unlikely. From what medical experts have indicated, it would have caused immediate unconsciousness. And that regaining consciousness was highly unlikely. She was experiencing bleeding into her brain, swelling and increased pressure as time passed. Her breathing would have been very shallow and sporadic, possibly not delectable at times. I think it’s very possible they thought she was already gone before they began the cover up. The head wound was catastrophic. The only sign that would have contradicted it was literally a death blow was the lack of visible, external bleeding.

 

[CloudedTruth]

I'm familiar with this theory and agree that a golf club is a strong contender for the weapon. Have you seen otg's amazing thread about this? In case not - and I'm not pretending to do it justice - he demonstrated (and illustrated) why he believes the displaced skull fragment was ovoid rather than rectangular. He then applied geometry to show that the weapon must have been cylindrical: an oval is produced by the intersection of a cylinder with a sphere. Using autopsy data and photographs, he was able to obtain a more precise measurement of the oval, to extrapolate the curvature of the skull and, from those, to calculate the diameter of the cylinder that struck it: 1/2 - 1 inch, approx. And finally, IIRC, he listed corresponding objects in the home. The two best fits were the shaft of a golf club and a thin metal pole (captured in a photo) propped against the basement wall by the water heater. Another member noted that, when a club is swung back before moving forwards, the flexible shaft makes it capable of delivering greater force towards the end; i.e., greater than an inflexible object would. This means a club multiplies and concentrates the strength of the person swinging it. In otg's reconstruction of events, then, the attacker held the golf club by the head or near it to deliver the blow. It would not have lacerated JBR's scalp. If the wrapped handle of the club struck JBR's skull, this would have protected the scalp. And one more detail - Unlike the miscellaneous clubs found propped upright elsewhere, the ones near the wine cellar were in golf bags. Anyone who reached for a club would have grasped it by the head or near it.

I believe otg's theory is correct because it's grounded in concrete particulars and extremely well argued. And yes, it sure would explain why JR wanted that one set of clubs out of the house. It also persuades me that the flashlight is unrelated to the assault and kind of a red herring. One or more Rams used it in the middle of the night to avoid turning lights on. JAR had given it to JR as a gift and certainly would have put batteries in beforehand to make sure it worked and was ready to use. It's possible to insert the batteries holding them by the curved bottom edge, leaving no prints. I was able to do this with my own Maglite.

otg's theory of the weapon suggests that JBR was alive until she went to the basement, and that the head blow and strangulation happened in the same place, the wide end of the hallway just outside the wine cellar.

Sorry, I realize my comment isn't responsive to the SA aspects of the crime. It just seemed like a good time to argue in favor of the golf club theory.

Fascinating deep dive into the golf club theory. Thank you for sharing. Makes a lot of sense.

 

[Meara]

It's also possible that the head basher wasn't aware of the severity of the injury.
Wasn't it only discovered how bad it was when the scalp was peeled back?
Maybe that's why the garrote was used.

So we're thinking it was likely overkill when perhaps the killer just didn't realize the head wound was so bad...

Or, I could just be wrong!

The original comment was from proust20, btw.

If by severity you mean the damage - the displaced piece of skull and the 8 in. crack - then no, there was no way for the attacker to know, although he (or she) may have heard an ominous crack.

If by severity you mean the observable effects of the head bash, then it's very iffy, because we don't know what they were. JBR may have lapsed into a coma with shallow breathing, or lost all discernible signs of life, or developed a death rattle, or had a convulsion. We just don't know.

Was the head bash overkill following SA and strangulation?
Did it come first, and she was strangled to make sure she was dead?
I don't have the answers. You are definitely on to the right questions!

 

[Gunther Toody]

The original comment was from proust20, btw.

If by severity you mean the damage - the displaced piece of skull and the 8 in. crack - then no, there was no way for the attacker to know, although he (or she) may have heard an ominous crack.

If by severity you mean the observable effects of the head bash, then it's very iffy, because we don't know what they were. JBR may have lapsed into a coma with shallow breathing, or lost all discernible signs of life, or developed a death rattle, or had a convulsion. We just don't know.

Was the head bash overkill following SA and strangulation?
Did it come first, and she was strangled to make sure she was dead?
I don't have the answers. You are definitely on to the right questions.

I struggle with the thought that a parent would injure their own child so inhumanely.
We read of parental abuse, neglect and even murder. But to this extreme?

I can't recall ever reading about a case of overkill (assuming that's the case) on their own child.
And if that is the case, in my mind there had to be previous indications of the hatred or rage toward JB, yet prior to that night they seem like a somewhat normal family.

And after the event, while their behavior is odd, it is not psychopathic or psychotic.
Then there is BR...who acted indifferent and removed from the chaos. He didn't even question why the police were there that night. No tears, no fear, and wanted to play his XBOX. The loss of his sister did not seem to affect him and even in later interviews, like Dr. Phil, he projected no anger toward the killer.

To me, it still points to the parents covering up for their son's crime.
PR, barely hanging on and JR, who was aloof and absent most of the time anyway, more able to handle it.

 

[iamshadow21]

I struggle with the thought that a parent would injure their own child so inhumanely.
We read of parental abuse, neglect and even murder. But to this extreme?

I can't recall ever reading about a case of overkill (assuming that's the case) on their own child.

RSBM

I can think of many, a lot of them very young, but the one that most immediately comes to mind is Gabriel Fernandez. It is true that most that I can think of came after a long pattern of systemic abuse and torture.

Possibly the closest equivalent I can think of is the killing of Gannon Stauch, who was killed by his stepmother, who, if I recall correctly, had parented him in some form or fashion for over five years, and full time for two, when she murdered him by drugging him, stabbing him, bludgeoning him, and shooting him, and possibly burning him the night before.

MOO

 

[boomburger]

The brother struck her over the head out of impulsive anger for whatever reason and used his boy scout knowledge of toggle ropes to drag her down into the basement in a childish attempt to hide what he had done as kids often do. The process of dragging cut off blood supply to her brain which caused her death. He potentially used a piece of train track to try and wake her up leaving the marks on her body. One or both parents woke up and found out what was going on, Betsy had a cancer scare (lost a daughter and potentially now a son institutionalised) and the father had a reputation to lose, both cover for the son.

I reckon both parents knew Burke to be somewhat of a loose screw (there were several 'my son needs help' type books in the house, the scatolia issue, and he had struck JB with a gold club once before leaving a scar) so they weren't completely surprised by that nights events imo.

 

[Gunther Toody]

RSBM

I can think of many, a lot of them very young, but the one that most immediately comes to mind is Gabriel Fernandez. It is true that most that I can think of came after a long pattern of systemic abuse and torture.

Possibly the closest equivalent I can think of is the killing of Gannon Stauch, who was killed by his stepmother, who, if I recall correctly, had parented him in some form or fashion for over five years, and full time for two, when she murdered him by drugging him, stabbing him, bludgeoning him, and shooting him, and possibly burning him the night before.

MOO

I took a brief look at both cases you mentioned.
Fernandez mother was abused as a child, a heavy drug user and had an abusive boyfriend.

Gannon Stauch was murdered by a stepmother who had no personal bonds with him.

While both are horrible, neither seems to compare to the seemingly normal Ramsey family.

 

[CloudedTruth]

The brother struck her over the head out of impulsive anger for whatever reason and used his boy scout knowledge of toggle ropes to drag her down into the basement in a childish attempt to hide what he had done as kids often do. The process of dragging cut off blood supply to her brain which caused her death. He potentially used a piece of train track to try and wake her up leaving the marks on her body. One or both parents woke up and found out what was going on, Betsy had a cancer scare (lost a daughter and potentially now a son institutionalised) and the father had a reputation to lose, both cover for the son.

I reckon both parents knew Burke to be somewhat of a loose screw (there were several 'my son needs help' type books in the house, the scatolia issue, and he had struck JB with a gold club once before leaving a scar) so they weren't completely surprised by that nights events imo.

But it was PR's DNA and fibers from the clothes she was wearing that were found all over the garrote. I do believe that was part of the cover up they came up with to hide the truth. I don't think anyone was in bed and asleep that night as they have claimed. There was also the prior SA aspect that needed to be hidden. I do believe that this plays a part in how they went about the cover up and some of the things that were done to JBR as a result.

BR was also under the care of a therapist and had been since before moving to Boulder from Atlanta. The R's had his medical records sealed, so we do not know what his issues were, but clearly he had issues of some sort. He had inappropriate outbursts at times and flashes of anger that resulted in him hitting JBR with a golf club one time, as you mentioned. PR initially told a friend that it was the result of an altercation between brother & sister that got out of hand. She later changed the story to it having been accidental. So yes.....between these things and his bedwetting and the scatolia, the parents definitely knew he had issues, how could they not? The child behavioral books came from PR's parents. It seems to have been clear that others recognized there were issues too. It's of course possible that JR & PR just didn't realize how serious his issues were, but it feels also like they were may have been in some form of denial about it. As we know, they were both all about appearances. That seemed to take the forefront in how they handled things that were unpleasant.

 

[Swirlz]

BR was also under the care of a therapist and had been since before moving to Boulder from Atlanta. The R's had his medical records sealed, so we do not know what his issues were, but clearly he had issues of some sort. He had inappropriate outbursts at times and flashes of anger that resulted in him hitting JBR with a golf club one time, as you mentioned. PR initially told a friend that it was the result of an altercation between brother & sister that got out of hand. She later changed the story to it having been accidental. So yes.....between these things and his bedwetting and the scatolia, the parents definitely knew he had issues, how could they not? The child behavioral books came from PR's parents. It seems to have been clear that others recognized there were issues too. It's of course possible that JR & PR just didn't realize how serious his issues were, but it feels also like they were may have been in some form of denial about it. As we know, they were both all about appearances. That seemed to take the forefront in how they handled things that were unpleasant.

Just wanted to jump in and clarify a few points:

1. There's no source for BR seeing a therapist prior to the homicide.

2. Chief Beckner said he hadn't seen BR's medical records but investigator Kolar claims only to have been denied access to Burke's records of post-homicide visits to a mental health counselor.

3. Both Burke and Patsy claim the golf club incident was an accident. The incident is described as an accident by lead investigator, Steve Thomas. The injury was to JonBenet's cheek which would fit with her having walked into a back swing. The family friend who claimed to have knowledge of the incident having been intentional wasn't present. There are no other reports from prior to the homicide of Burke having a temper or outbursts.

4. There's only one source for Burke doing anything inappropriate with poop. He got it on a wall once when he was 6.

5. The child behavioral books promoted conservative Christian values and didn't address violent or aggressive behaviors in children. Either way, how do we know the books were intended for Burke rather than JonBenet? JonBenet has been described by multiple sources as a handful.