IL - Lt. Charles 'Joe' Gliniewicz, 52, found dead, Fox Lake, 1 Sep 2015 - #4

[Chuz Life]

I have no strong opinion either way on suicide or murder.
I do have a strong opinion about keeping an open mind to outrageous things though.
I think many of us are aware of how far our imaginations are being stretched.
We are aware because they have been stretched that far before.

People keep saying how hard it is to believe this could be a murder.
I believe some are willing to entertain that idea for a reason.
We have seen unbelievable things happen with cases here.
I have personally learned anything is possible.

Many people here agreed with LE that this outrageous, straight out of a movie case was a hoax.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?274749-CA-DH-30-Vallejo-23-March-2015-*ARREST*

Guess what? They were all wrong.
Unbelievable as it was, it was 100% true.
You just never know is what I've learned here. :twocents.

Thanks.

Your post is an excellent foundation for the point that I have been trying to make on this.

Yes, I can accept that its is 'possible' that the three suspects were actually there as reported by the Lt. Yes, it is 'possible' one or more wrestled his gun away from him and then killed him with it. Yes, it is 'possible' that all this took place in less than the 10 minutes before backup arrived. Yes, it is 'possible' that all three suspects then escaped through a muddy swamp - leaving no foot prints, scent or other evidence for the chasing officers to find or follow.

Yes. All of that is 'possible.'

What I find "impossible" (for me to believe) is for those investigators and others who actually BELIEVE all that actually took place. . . to also maintain the view that the Lt. MIGHT have also just made the whole thing up and killed himself. All at the same time. <----

 

[cady]

Their faith in this being a homicide, rests entirely on their belief that the Gliniewicz dispatch was true, in it's entirety. Apparently, the odd hour, the timing and all else, is believable, to seasoned investigators. So, would any of them have taken the same measures as Gliniewicz? If yes, protocol is really just a nice idea. JMO

 

[TheDuchess]

I'm not sure I understand. Many of us here feel that from what we know both theories could be possible. The last thing Rudd himself said of the situation was that he wasn't sure if it was homicide suicide or even accidental.


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[Chuz Life]

Their faith in this being a homicide, rests entirely on their belief that the Gliniewicz dispatch was true, in it's entirety. Apparently, the odd hour, the timing and all else, is believable, to seasoned investigators. So, would any of them have taken the same measures as Gliniewicz? If yes, protocol is really just a nice idea. JMO

I'm fairly certain that the investigators know that the Lt. faked his encounter with the three suspects and took his own life. I think they want to believe so much that the encounter was real, that they are exhausting every investigative angle they can to try and prove (even if only to themselves) that this might have been anything other than a suicide. (jmo)

 

[Chuz Life]

I'm not sure I understand. Many of us here feel that from what we know both theories could be possible. The last thing Rudd himself said of the situation was that he wasn't sure if it was homicide suicide or even accidental.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Do you see how it could not have been both a murder AND a suicide at the same time?

Do you see how the more the evidence proves in favor of one, the more it disproves the other?

If your answer to both those questions is "yes." Can you see how the authority's claim that they are still treating this as a Homicide - even while they keep the possibility of a suicide on the table - is problematic for their own credibility?

 

[Cubby]

It boggles my mind as to how some others can maintain the belief that this was either and inside job or that the Lt. was setup and intentionally murdered by anyone else.

What kind of assassin would have been able to PLAN ahead and know that the Lt. would be in that area at that exact time, trick him into reporting and pursing the three suspects (without getting backup there first) and not only plan it out but to pull it off - using the Lt's own weapon to kill him. . . and then have all the involved parties VANISH into the marsh with no evidence of foot prints or significant scent trails to follow!?!

I'm sorry. I can't imagine how others can see that as a possibility.

If he had a regular daily routine and someone knew he would be driving down Honing between X and Y time prior to his shift. A lot of people do the same thing along the same route at the same time every single day.

We can probably assume the three persons seen on video were in fact the three he reported and ran towards the swamp. We really don't know where they were prior to being seen on surveillance. If Lt. CG saw a familiar face he would likely be unaware he was in danger and perhaps thought that was part of the backup he called for. Someone who he knew and had a legitimate reason to be there might have been overlooked because no one would ever suspect the person responsible had a grievance with Lt. CG. That is how I can make it work.

I don't think that scenario is more likely than suicide, but I do see it as possible considering the unknown dna.

 

[night train]

The Dutchess asked:


I think you have missed my point. So, let me put it into a question.

If the investigators TRULY BELIEVE that this was a homicide/ murder. . . Why are they allowing for the possibility of this being a suicide?

Do you not see how it is a contradiction for them to hold a strong view that he was murdered and a strong view that he may have committed suicide at the same time?

The evidence and arguments for one seriously weakens the same for the other.

Editing to add this point: The authorities are not using the media to ask for the public's help, anymore. They are not using the media to try to get the 'suspects' to turn themselves in. They are not increasing the rewards or anything like that to increase pressure on the alleged "suspects." The manhunt was ended in only 14hrs with no warnings to the public that the killers are still "out there" and considered dangerous.

I don't see how they are in any way acting as though they seriously believe the Lt's 'killers' are still out there and on the loose. Their actions and more so their in-actions tell me that they have concluded that it was a suicide and they are trying to find ways to make sure they didn't miss anything (best case.) Either that, or (worse case) they are trying to cover it up and do some damage control.

I seriously hope it isn't that^^^

BBM-

There are signs a homicide occured,there is also gunshot residue on the decedent's hand(s) which could have been deposited during a struggle for his weapon.The investigators do not have the luxury of feeling "exasperated" There is no contradiction in any way.They are obligated to consider both possibilities.

 

[Cubby]

Y

I read the website rules but I did not see my question addressed. Would I be allowed to post a picture of 2 MB and 1 MW subjects walking in the area of the crime around the same time? Their faces are not extremely clear but I would cover or blur them more to protect their identity.

The picture is a screenshot from a dash cam video of an aquaintance who was in the area. After watching the news the evening of the shooting, he review his video and found the trio walking along the road. The footage was immediately turned over to LE who have cleared the 3 men. It does look like 1 is carrying a bag with a beverage, possibly recently purchased, which could provide the receipt & alibi cited by LE. The house & background in the photo would be enough to pinpoint the area where the were seen but I have just started using Google street view to try and find a match and could probably use some help if anyone would be interested.

I dont think that the 3 were involved but I was interested in their location to see if iht is plausible that Lt G might have seen them that morning and decided to mention them as others have opined, "to lend credibility" to his radio call/story.

Hi Boo Radley . FIrst let me address your earlier question about posting from a closed thread. That can't be done other than to copy and paste from the previous thread.

Regarding your question in the post I quoted, the best thing to do with a question like that is to post the question and then hit the triangle alert button in the lower left corner of your post. Another window will open and you can type in a request for a mod to answer your question in the post.

hth

 

[TheDuchess]

Do you see how it could not have been both a murder AND a suicide at the same time?

Do you see how the more the evidence proves in favor of one, the more it disproves the other?

If your answer to both those questions is "yes." Can you see how the authority's claim that they are still treating this as a Homicide - even while they keep the possibility of a suicide on the table - is problematic for their own credibility?

I am not sure if you mean this to come across as though you are speaking to a child, but hope I am wrong.

Yes - I understand that it cannot be a homicide and a suicide at once.
Yes - I understand that evidence can work to disprove one and prove another
Yes - I understand that they are treating it as homicide because the default would be suicide or accidental.
No - I don't see a problem with their credibility at this time, as from what I understand, I cannot state for certain which is possible, as I am open to either conclusion and at this point, while even I may be "leaning" toward suicide, I see that as a default. I am looking at this as a homicide, as there is plenty of evidence to lead me in that direction. In order for me to flip that position, I would need more definitive proof that this was a suicide.

We obviously disagree on this. I see your point. I understand your points. Just because I don't agree with your opinion, doesn't make either of ours wrong.

 

[Chuz Life]

It boggles my mind as to how some others can maintain the belief that this was either and inside job or that the Lt. was setup and intentionally murdered by anyone else.

What kind of assassin would have been able to PLAN ahead and know that the Lt. would be in that area at that exact time, trick him into reporting and pursing the three suspects (without getting backup there first) and not only plan it out but to pull it off - using the Lt's own weapon to kill him. . . and then have all the involved parties VANISH into the marsh with no evidence of foot prints or significant scent trails to follow!?!

I'm sorry. I can't imagine how others can see that as a possibility.

If he had a regular daily routine and someone knew he would be driving down Honing between X and Y time prior to his shift. A lot of people do the same thing along the same route at the same time every single day.

True. But wouldn't be very easy for investigators to rule in or out. Given the time frame we have and the fact that he did not always use take home vehicle?

We can probably assume the three persons seen on video were in fact the three he reported and ran towards the swamp. We really don't know where they were prior to being seen on surveillance.

Is it logical to "assume" they were there if there is no hard evidence to prove that they were actually there as reported by the Lt? I don't think so.

If Lt. CG saw a familiar face he would likely be unaware he was in danger and perhaps thought that was part of the backup he called for.

So many thoughts come to mind with this. He reported three suspects. Familiar to him or not, he reported them as "two white males, one black." That would be odd, if he actually knew or recognized one or more of them. Wouldn't it?

Someone who he knew and had a legitimate reason to be there might have been overlooked because no one would ever suspect the person responsible had a grievance with Lt. CG. That is how I can make it work.

How do you then explain the lack of evidence, the lack of radio traffic, the inability of the tracking dogs to actually track them, The lack of any defensive wounds, etc.?

I don't think that scenario is more likely than suicide, but I do see it as possible considering the unknown dna.

I already agreed that it's 'possible.'

However, I can't draw any reasonable conclusions from that 'possibility' for this being a homicide as I can for this being a suicide.

We know the officer was found with two gunshot woulds from his own weapon. Despite any dna found that may have come from sources prior to even during the investigation. . . unless those dna samples can be supported by any other evidence that shows the Lt was not there alone? The dna would not be significant to the case - unless it could be tied to the actual struggle for the weapon and the subsequent death of the officer.

It might someone a 'suspect' but that's about it.

 

[TheDuchess]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2563487/

I found this article really interesting in light of our conversations and our disagreements about determining MOD between homicide and suicide.

"Much of the difficulty in conceptualizing and measuring violent death lies in the implicit nature of intentionality, particularly for suicide. Perhaps stemming from this difficulty, a number of studies have concluded that suicides are underreported because of the misallocation of suicide verdicts to other manners of death, such as the &#8220;accidental&#8221; or undetermined classifications.1,2,3,4,5,6 Some have argued that the standard of proof (that is, typically &#8220;beyond a reasonable doubt&#8221 used by coroners/medical examiners (C/ME) for legal reasons is a standard that is artificially high for public health purposes, and may result in the systematic exclusion of particular types of suicides.4,7 The difficulty of ascertaining a decedent's intent, combined with the legally defined burden of proof, likely restricts the full range of deaths due to self&#8208;harm from inclusion in violent death surveillance systems."

The rest of it is really interesting as well.

 

[Cubby]

IMO their credibility would be questioned if they did not do all they can to investigate the nine unknown dna samples and wait on the additional ballistics tests. However, I do think with Lt.CG'S having been a firearms instructor and a sniper he'd have an even more knowledgeable on staging the scene.

I'm having trouble understanding how a bullet fired by someone else would strike him under his bullet proof vest. How loose do those things fit? I've always assumed they fit snugly but not uncomfortably snugly.

 

[marble]

can anyone recap what things that have been released so far point to homicide instead of suicide for people who are on the fence or leaning that way?

So far I have:

CG's call about chasing the suspicious people
Reported signs of a struggle (not yet clarified as to whether this includes bruising/tears to clothing or only disrupted ground)
Because the police say so and they know more than we do (?)

 

[Boo Radley]

With the possibility that I may have to eat my words, here is my theory:

Lt G was not the retiring type. He had applied for multiple PD Chief jobs and was turned down for all of them. This had to be weighing more heavily upon him with each rejection as his retirement grew closer and he had not secured another job. His pension would only be between 50-75% of his salary and does not include medical insurance. On his Facebook page, he has mentioned not being able to afford an upcoming race due to lack of money.

He has 4 sons, at least 2 are still at home. Does anyone know if 1 or 2 of his sons have special needs? Please do not be offended by this question. I have an adolescent son with special needs and am not making any judgements. However, as much as I love my son, there is a lot of work involved and this can be stressful at times. Having a child with special needs can often result in significant additional expenses. Statistically, these families also see higher divorce rates.

Police officers have a higher infidelity/divorce rate than the general public. Some have speculated about this possibility. I was surprised by some of the fitness related "inspirational" type quotes on his Facebook page. I felt that they could possibly be considered offensive by someone who was not as athletic and fit as Lt G, such as his wife. He obviously spent considerable time working out. In addition to his normal PD schedule, he also spent many hours training police explorers. This is wonderful & admirable but this also leaves less time for your family & spouse.

The Fox Lake PD was obviously having some issues. The chief and 1 officer were suspended while being investigated for the handling of a DUI arrest and subsequent complaint by the person arrested. While suspended, the chief chose to retire. I know you are innocent until proven guilty, but I would have expected an innocent and proud 30 year police officer to boldly defend his reputation & career. The city officials have also stated that the Fox Lake PD is undergoing a complete organizational review and an inventory of the department's assets, claiming this is standard procedure whenever there is new leadership. That is questionable. The times when this action is standard procedure is when there are indications of other problems and when department assets may be "missing". Also, the new leadership was appointed from outside of the department rather than promoting from within, even temporarily as many departments do in order to provide stability and continuity while they seek a permanent chief.

Lt G was close friends with the chief and the mayor, they all worked together for over 25 years. They mayor has a 90 minute breakfast with Lt G the day before his death. The mayor has only revealed that they spoke about the future of the police explorer program after Lt G retires. So despite the fact that Lt G was close friends with the mayor, wanted to continue working as a police chief, was praised by all for his distinguished career in Fox Lake, he was not being considered for the recently vacated position of police chief in Fox Lake. If he was , I'm sure that the mayor would have mentioned this in his comments to the press. So what else did they talk about? The investigation of the police department is being done by an outside investigator. This is significant because many serious allegations of wrongdoing are handled without the need for an outside investigator. They mayor no longer has any influence. What else might they find? In the days before his death, Lt G posted on Facebook that he was enjoying a drink on his deck after a stressful few weeks.

Could these circumstances, plus others we are not aware of have caused the perfect storm? Was he trying to sort out his options after the breakfast with the mayor? I don't think that anyone would have seen any traditional signs of suicidal tendencies. Lt G was a tough guy! And a tender guy. And a funny guy. And a wonderful father! He was also human, possibly finding himself suddenly overwhelmed, confused, and angry. The next morning, he left for work as usual, saw 3 men walking together, stopped at the secluded area that he was familiar with. Got out and walked around for 20 minutes while having some impulsive suicidal thoughts. Thought "what if" I could make it look like murder? This could explain the less than elaborate steps taken to disguise the suicide. He remembered the 3 men he saw walking. Shot a glancing shot off his vest (contrary to LE comparison to a sledgehammer and assumed incapacitation, the glancing shot in this instance would have much less impact force). Walked the 100 feet between shell casings, made the radio calls and the fired the final shot. Obviously, both shots were fired with a trajectories and proximity we that are compatible with self infliction or suicide would have been ruled out.

This is is a horrible tragedy. He is still a hero to me. Mentioning the 3 men was a spontaneous thought in a moment of unparalleled crisis, nothing more. Making it look like murder was not premeditated pension fraud, it was a desperate attempt to do something to help his family, consistent with his character, during the chaotic last moments of his life. He hid his fear and pain very well. Starting with his military service and continuing with the police department, he was conditioned to serve others, not ask for help. If he was shouldering more than he could handle, had given away too much of himself, and could see no other option, I think we need to learn from this terrible loss. These few moments of desperation do not negate all the wonderful things he has done or the lives he has touched. I would like to see the media focus on the issue of suicide among LE, all emergency responders, and our military, in order to honor his legacy and help others before they too, give too much.

 

[Chuz Life]

Do you see how it could not have been both a murder AND a suicide at the same time?

Do you see how the more the evidence proves in favor of one, the more it disproves the other?

If your answer to both those questions is "yes." Can you see how the authority's claim that they are still treating this as a Homicide - even while they keep the possibility of a suicide on the table - is problematic for their own credibility?

I am not sure if you mean this to come across as though you are speaking to a child, but hope I am wrong.

I do have a lot of disbelief as to how others can reach such different conclusions than I have, given that we all have the same evidence to consider. However, I don't mean to come across like I'm speaking down to anyone like that. Those questions are from my own thought process and 'boiled down' to be as simply put and straight forward as I could put them - to try to bring the readers to the point that I'm trying to reach. It's nothing more than that.

Yes - I understand that it cannot be a homicide and a suicide at once.
Yes - I understand that evidence can work to disprove one and prove another

Great.

Yes - I understand that they are treating it as homicide because the default would be suicide or accidental.

Okay. That's not what I asked but that's an interesting point of view. I would think that given the radio traffic, the default thinking would have been homicide in this case.

No - I don't see a problem with their credibility at this time, as from what I understand, I cannot state for certain which is possible, as I am open to either conclusion and at this point, while even I may be "leaning" toward suicide, I see that as a default. I am looking at this as a homicide, as there is plenty of evidence to lead me in that direction. In order for me to flip that position, I would need more definitive proof that this was a suicide.

BBM. . . That is such a contradiction, I don't know how to respond to this.

We obviously disagree on this. I see your point. I understand your points. Just because I don't agree with your opinion, doesn't make either of ours wrong.

That's fine and it's a good point. I am not here to play the "I'm right and you or anyone else is wrong" game. I'm only here to express my own views and to have them weighed along with the views of everyone else. I am also intrigued by the thought processes of others and sometimes that's what keeps me engaged in making a specific point more than anything else.

In the end, it's all about the facts and the truth. I'm hoping we can get some more information soon.

 

[Cubby]

True. But wouldn't be very easy for investigators to rule in or out. Given the time frame we have and the fact that he did not always use take home vehicle?



Is it logical to "assume" they were there if there is no hard evidence to prove that they were actually there as reported by the Lt? I don't think so.



So many thoughts come to mind with this. He reported three suspects. Familiar to him or not, he reported them as "two white males, one black." That would be odd, if he actually knew or recognized one or more of them. Wouldn't it?




How do you then explain the lack of evidence, the lack of radio traffic, the inability of the tracking dogs to actually track them, The lack of any defensive wounds, etc.?




I already agreed that it's 'possible.'

However, I can't draw any reasonable conclusions from that 'possibility' for this being a homicide as I can for this being a suicide.

We know the officer was found with two gunshot woulds from his own weapon. Despite any dna found that may have come from sources prior to even during the investigation. . . unless those dna samples can be supported by any other evidence that shows the Lt was not there alone? The dna would not be significant to the case - unless it could be tied to the actual struggle for the weapon and the subsequent death of the officer.

It might someone a 'suspect' but that's about it.

I don't know how to multi quote so I will just answer. We know there were three people in the area who matched the description radioed in because they were seen on surveillance, interviewed by police and ruled out as being involved. Ruling them out as having been involved does not mean it rules them out of being in the area at the time.

By familiar face, I don't mean the 3 were recognizable or familiar to LT. CG. A 4th person who arrived on the scene unrelated to tne three who LT. CG would have recognized as someone arriving for backup would have the opportunity to walk right up to him and grab his weapon because he or she would never have been considered a threat by Lt. CG or the others who arrived on the scene and possibly saw their peers already there If the responsible person was believed to belong on the scene as the investigation was occuring isn't there a possibility a dog tracking their scent would have been dismissed?

Pls excuse typos on a tablet....

 

[Tillicum]

Here's what I don't understand. If CG planned this elaborate scheme to stage his suicide as a homicide, why didn't he acquire and modify another gun so that it couldn't be traced back to him or anyone else?

 

[Boo Radley]

But the trio he called in was:
The suspects are described as two white men and one black man.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...-slain-illinois-cop-manhunt-continues-n419762

You are correct and that is what my picture shows. Just a typo on my part.

 

[Japple]

I read the website rules but I did not see my question addressed. Would I be allowed to post a picture of 2 MB and 1 MW subjects walking in the area of the crime around the same time? Their faces are not extremely clear but I would cover or blur them more to protect their identity.

The picture is a screenshot from a dash cam video of an aquaintance who was in the area. After watching the news the evening of the shooting, he review his video and found the trio walking along the road. The footage was immediately turned over to LE who have cleared the 3 men. It does look like 1 is carrying a bag with a beverage, possibly recently purchased, which could provide the receipt & alibi cited by LE. The house & background in the photo would be enough to pinpoint the area where the were seen but I have just started using Google street view to try and find a match and could probably use some help if anyone would be interested.

I dont think that the 3 were involved but I was interested in their location to see if it is plausible that Lt G might have seen them that morning and decided to mention them as others have opined, "to lend credibility" to his radio call/story.

I tried to send this via PM but your inbox appears to be full. I live in fox lake and I'm sure I can identify the location. Please send them to me if you can't post them in the open. I'd be glad to help and am curious as heck to see where these guys were in relation to LTs route and crime scene.

 

[Chuz Life]

Do you see how it could not have been both a murder AND a suicide at the same time?

Do you see how the more the evidence proves in favor of one, the more it disproves the other?

If your answer to both those questions is "yes." Can you see how the authority's claim that they are still treating this as a Homicide - even while they keep the possibility of a suicide on the table - is problematic for their own credibility?

BBM-

There are signs a homicide occurred

Can you tell me specifically what those signs were?

there is also gunshot residue on the decedent's hand(s) which could have been deposited during a struggle for his weapon.

Or during his intentional or accidental suicide.

True.

The investigators do not have the luxury of feeling "exasperated" There is no contradiction in any way.

I respectfully disagree with that.

If they truly believe that their fellow officer was actually murdered and that they have ANY hard evidence to support that belief - they would not be obligated to keep suicide on the table (and to pro-long his family from receiving his benefits) in any way.

They are obligated to consider both possibilities.

Not if they have any hard evidence of an actual encounter with an assailant / murderer - they aren't. The lack of that evidence is the ONLY reason that suicide is still being considered in this case.