That "can't feel pain" and all the adrenaline is why size doesn't matter. When someone is amped up on adrenaline or drugs or whatever, they can be much more dangerous than their size suggests.GlitchWizard said:I once called the police on a boyfriend who punched my windshield and was suicidal. I wanted the police to take him away to a place where he'd be safe, like a mental hospital. Instead, they battered him around a bit first.
I was SO UPSET (and naieve) at the time.
Years later, I met a correctional officer who put it into perspective. He said "You are called on a case where a verbally abusive person just punched out a windshield. He reeks of alcohol and there is a chance he is unable to feel pain (which makes him "stronger" and more dangerous because his muscles don't tell him to stop what he is doing due to pain.) Your job is to put him in the car and not let him hurt you in the process. It's not like you can reason with him and say "Please sit in that car over there.""
Size has nothing to to with it. As I stated in a previous post my sister the cop is 5'3", about 110#, yet she has had lawsuits filed against her for "police brutality" from men who are 6' tall and more, weighing 200#. Even though this kid was handcuffed he may have been tazered to prevent him from hurting himself. You don't need to be handcuffed to be "subdued". Head butts and kicks are dangerous also. Agreed shouting on a streetcorner is not criminal, it's not normal either. I just don't see where LE should be blamed for his death.spclk said:Look, I hear you all loud and clear and agree that in most cases it is justified. However, according to a local newspaper:
"The teen stood about 5 feet 7 inches tall and weighed about 150 pounds, compared to the officers, who were at least 5 feet 9 inches tall and weighed 180 pounds or more, according to a department news release. Wagner called for back-up, and Officer Matt Witt responded. "
He also had been handcuffed before they tazered him the first time, much less the second time. How much of a danger could he have been while handcuffed and only 150 pounds with NO weapon???
I can't help but feel sorry for this kid and his family. He wasn't dealing drugs, or stealing or attacking anyone......where was his crime? He was just standing on the street corner shouting. If it were my child I would want to know the full details of why this happened and I stand by my opinion!
He wasn't tazer'd for standing on a street corner shouting - he was tazer'd for his reaction to police coming to talk to him about standing on the street corner shouting - and what he was shouting sounds a lot like he was suicidal, could have been homicidal - how often do you read reports of a nutjob going on a rampage, and starting out by shouting things like that? Doesn't make this guy a nutjob, but does mean that the police should not just ignore him, not talk to him to see what's up. They had to go talk to him. From there, it was his responses that got him tazer'd.spclk said:Look, I hear you all loud and clear and agree that in most cases it is justified. However, according to a local newspaper:
"The teen stood about 5 feet 7 inches tall and weighed about 150 pounds, compared to the officers, who were at least 5 feet 9 inches tall and weighed 180 pounds or more, according to a department news release. Wagner called for back-up, and Officer Matt Witt responded. "
He also had been handcuffed before they tazered him the first time, much less the second time. How much of a danger could he have been while handcuffed and only 150 pounds with NO weapon???
I can't help but feel sorry for this kid and his family. He wasn't dealing drugs, or stealing or attacking anyone......where was his crime? He was just standing on the street corner shouting. If it were my child I would want to know the full details of why this happened and I stand by my opinion!
After a preliminary autopsy Tuesday, deputy chief medical examiner Dr. Phillip Burch told the St. Louis Post-Dispatch the teen might have died of "excited delirium" and "he could have dropped dead without being Tased." He said he didn't see overt signs of injury or foul play.
Excited delirium can be brought on by mental illness or drugs, Burch said. Complete results will not be available for at least six weeks, when toxicology tests are returned.
Yeah, it's some dumb macho thing, I think, or massive problems with any authority - really dumb - darwin award dumb.reb said:details... reminds me of that movie 'crash'. the young black kid reaches in his pocket for something while the young policement is screaming
"PUT YOUR HANDS WHERE I CAN SEE THEM!" and he is ignoring him. (what about the english language don't you understand??) then the cop panics and shoots him. sometimes i think these guys WANT to get shot by the cops, it's almost like they have a martyr mentality that is so deep they are willing to lose their life over it. if a cop says put your hands in the air, then god dammit,, DO IT!!! don't reach in your pocket for something, then wonder why you get shot!!
and NO people who do this are not 'innocent victims of police brutality'.
Honestly..... :angel:reb said:mmmmmm.... stupid enough to deserve to die?? lol
I think a taser is particular brand of stun gun that allows you to fire the electrodes over a distance (attached by wires). But I think this model of taser must also have had the standard stun gun electrodes for close-range use (dual-purpose taser).CyberLaw said:I had no idea that a stun gun and a taser are two differnt things.
You gotta be kidding! He's 130 pounds and handcuffed, and if the LE can't deal with that without killing him, they need to find another job and the town needs a new chief. We know tasers work with high voltage current, and as many have pointed out, agitation, with or without further chemical stimulation can make one much more susceptible to heart rhythm disturbances. LE knew, or should have known, this and they tasered him anyway. These guys didn't have Mace, or even a blanket?SadieMae said:Size has nothing to to with it. As I stated in a previous post my sister the cop is 5'3", about 110#, yet she has had lawsuits filed against her for "police brutality" from men who are 6' tall and more, weighing 200#. Even though this kid was handcuffed he may have been tazered to prevent him from hurting himself. You don't need to be handcuffed to be "subdued". Head butts and kicks are dangerous also. Agreed shouting on a streetcorner is not criminal, it's not normal either. I just don't see where LE should be blamed for his death.
OK. First - I will go for it - it's disgusting to accuse them of killing him, as if they did it deliberately. And a tazer is as much 'potentially leathal force' as a peanut butter sandwich is. Sure, either can kill a suceptible someone, but that doesn't make them a lethal weapon.crypto6 said:You gotta be kidding! He's 130 pounds and handcuffed, and if the LE can't deal with that without killing him, they need to find another job and the town needs a new chief. We know tasers work with high voltage current, and as many have pointed out, agitation, with or without further chemical stimulation can make one much more susceptible to heart rhythm disturbances. LE knew, or should have known, this and they tasered him anyway. These guys didn't have Mace, or even a blanket?
Use of the taser is incredibly poor judgment which cost a life. LE discharged the weapon, and they have responsibility for the consequences of the act. If some of you think not obeying LE about shouting justifies potentially lethal force, we live in different countries, and you may be in a banana republic. As to those quoted in papers making asinine claims that he would have died anyway without the taser, remedial statistics and probabilities are in order.
I know well several LE officers and they are thoughtful and concerned; the taser-happy LE are exactly why people "hate cops", and make it incredibly hard for the good LE to get a fair shake.
Flame away!
Details said:OK. First - I will go for it - it's disgusting to accuse them of killing him, as if they did it deliberately. And a tazer is as much 'potentially leathal force' as a peanut butter sandwich is. Sure, either can kill a suceptible someone, but that doesn't make them a lethal weapon.
From what the ME said, the tazer might have been the best shot at saving him, by forcibly calming him down - but too late. In any case, LE didn't have any reason to believe the tazer would kill the kid. Oh - BTW - mace has a similar record of some suspicious deaths that may or have been caused by mace, and pepper spray is apparently a bit worse. Heck, a blanket used while trying to control a struggling suspect might smother him, and I'm sure you know about the people killed by the standard bare hands police chokehold. If you take remedial statistics, you'll find out that the odds of the police running into criminals with pretty well any disease or hereditary or undiagnosed weakness is a virtual 100%. And if this poor sap is unlucky enough to have a weak heart or other ticking time bomb, and that coincides with him going a little nuts with the police - the poor officer has to deal with stupid headlines about police killing a teen for shouting for Jesus, and a stupid investigation because of bad luck.
Yeah - poor judgement - they should just let him go, give up on law enforcement, let the public take their chances. The police should be as scared (for a different reason) as the rest of us of talking with the local shouting nutjob. After all, he might have a weak heart, or a brain anyurism about to burst if they so much as touch him, or an allergy to mace, or an allergy to the cat fur on their blankie. It's all the police's fault, not the poor, poor idiot who chooses to start the fight.
LE are generally thoughtful and concerned - and I'm sure these police were no execption. But it's hard for any of them to get a fair shake when any outcome people can second-guess makes people call them bad cops. I bet your LE officers you know have the same types of claims against them, that they 'should have left our Johnny alone, he wasn't hurting anyone!'
crypto6 said:You gotta be kidding! He's 130 pounds and handcuffed, and if the LE can't deal with that without killing him, they need to find another job and the town needs a new chief. We know tasers work with high voltage current, and as many have pointed out, agitation, with or without further chemical stimulation can make one much more susceptible to heart rhythm disturbances. LE knew, or should have known, this and they tasered him anyway. These guys didn't have Mace, or even a blanket?
Use of the taser is incredibly poor judgment which cost a life. LE discharged the weapon, and they have responsibility for the consequences of the act. If some of you think not obeying LE about shouting justifies potentially lethal force, we live in different countries, and you may be in a banana republic. As to those quoted in papers making asinine claims that he would have died anyway without the taser, remedial statistics and probabilities are in order.
I know well several LE officers and they are thoughtful and concerned; the taser-happy LE are exactly why people "hate cops", and make it incredibly hard for the good LE to get a fair shake.
Flame away!
Details said:OK. And a tazer is as much 'potentially leathal force' as a peanut butter sandwich is. Sure, either can kill a suceptible someone, but that doesn't make them a lethal weapon.
From what the ME said, the tazer might have been the best shot at saving him, by forcibly calming him down - but too late.
If you take remedial statistics, you'll find out that the odds of the police running into criminals with pretty well any disease or hereditary or undiagnosed weakness is a virtual 100%.
Yeah - poor judgement - they should just let him go, give up on law enforcement, let the public take their chances. The police should be as scared (for a different reason) as the rest of us of talking with the local shouting nutjob. After all, he might have a weak heart, or a brain anyurism about to burst if they so much as touch him, or an allergy to mace, or an allergy to the cat fur on their blankie. It's all the police's fault, not the poor, poor idiot who chooses to start the fight.
LE are generally thoughtful and concerned - and I'm sure these police were no execption. But it's hard for any of them to get a fair shake when any outcome people can second-guess makes people call them bad cops. I bet your LE officers you know have the same types of claims against them, that they 'should have left our Johnny alone, he wasn't hurting anyone!'
