IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #172

[FrostedGlass]

Hi @FrostedGlass - I appreciate this level-headed viewpoint!

One question: how would LE or judges get it wrong by design, without some type of collaboration?

I've never attached the word "conspiracy" to a case of wrongful conviction. I've never thought of a group getting together to plan that unlawful act. I think they act as individuals doing whatever they can to get a conviction. They all have a common goal, after all.

Here's an example: a detective who believes he knows who did the crime, threatens and offers a reward to a friend of the suspect in order to get false testimony. Now, does the P know this? Then, when the interrogators feed the suspect info to get what they need.. and the P sits in on this... has she conspired? When some are aware that other people confessed to the crime but ignore that... have they conspired to arrest the easy one?

Regarding "conspiracy" used here, it doesn't feel like they are referring to a "collaboration."

 

[steeltowngirl]

I've never attached the word "conspiracy" to a case of wrongful conviction. I've never thought of a group getting together to plan that unlawful act. I think they act as individuals doing whatever they can to get a conviction. They all have a common goal, after all.

Here's an example: a detective who believes he knows who did the crime, threatens and offers a reward to a friend of the suspect in order to get false testimony. Now, does the P know this? Then, when the interrogators feed the suspect info to get what they need.. and the P sits in on this... has she conspired? When some are aware that other people confessed to the crime but ignore that... have they conspired to arrest the easy one?

Regarding "conspiracy" used here, it doesn't feel like they are referring to a "collaboration."

Good explanation, thank you!

 

[sunshineray]

I've never attached the word "conspiracy" to a case of wrongful conviction. I've never thought of a group getting together to plan that unlawful act. I think they act as individuals doing whatever they can to get a conviction. They all have a common goal, after all.

Here's an example: a detective who believes he knows who did the crime, threatens and offers a reward to a friend of the suspect in order to get false testimony. Now, does the P know this? Then, when the interrogators feed the suspect info to get what they need.. and the P sits in on this... has she conspired? When some are aware that other people confessed to the crime but ignore that... have they conspired to arrest the easy one?

Regarding "conspiracy" used here, it doesn't feel like they are referring to a "collaboration."

These other people that confessed were investigated, not ignored.

 

[MistyWaters]

I still would like to know if Greenlee is bound by the gag order, as he is named among the involved attorneys on RA’s murder charge docket.

I thought his involvement was the motion which was filed seeking to release sealed filings a while back? So he maybe was listed in order to receive notice regarding the ruling. But he’s never been a lawyer assigned to the case, nor included as “a party to the case”.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I've never attached the word "conspiracy" to a case of wrongful conviction. I've never thought of a group getting together to plan that unlawful act. I think they act as individuals doing whatever they can to get a conviction. They all have a common goal, after all.

Here's an example: a detective who believes he knows who did the crime, threatens and offers a reward to a friend of the suspect in order to get false testimony. Now, does the P know this? Then, when the interrogators feed the suspect info to get what they need.. and the P sits in on this... has she conspired? When some are aware that other people confessed to the crime but ignore that... have they conspired to arrest the easy one?

Regarding "conspiracy" used here, it doesn't feel like they are referring to a "collaboration."

The West Memphis Three was a case where parties conspired to convict innocent Defendants IMO.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I thought his involvement was the motion which was filed seeking to release sealed filings a while back? But he’s never been a lawyer assigned to the case.

Right not as a lawyer, but I believe he may have become a party to the case when MS aka Greenley notified LE of the leaked CS photos and Depositions that they had in their possession and to the investigative part of it?

MOO

EBM: Clarification on whether G was/is a party to the case

 

[sunshineray]

I thought his involvement was the motion which was filed seeking to release sealed filings a while back? So he maybe was listed in order to receive notice regarding the ruling. But he’s never been a lawyer assigned to the case, nor included as “a party to the case”.

The clerk must have in error lumped the news people seeking unsealing with the actually lawyers in the case? Including Greenlee there were 4 unfamiliar names in the middle of P and D names?...but P's assistant P is still listed last.

 

[MistyWaters]

What if B was lying about the leak being a one time incident? I don’t think we’ve heard the last of it.

‘Don’t think I have a choice’: Docs show judge in Delphi murders case wanted defense removed prior to withdrawal

ALLEN COUNTY, Ind. — Allen Superior Judge Fran Gull, the woman appointed to oversee the trial of Richard Allen in the Delphi double murders case, has released a transcript of a meeting in her chamb…

fox59.com

“I’m concerned that the leak is not just a one time leak,” the prosecutor is quoted as saying. “The evidence that we have shows it is an ongoing leak, however, it’s being done, and it’s just what’s next? I mean, I spent the past 17 days investigating this night and day when I should have been focused on preparing for trial.”

 

[sunshineray]

Right not as a lawyer, but I believe he became a party to the case when MS aka Greenley notified LE of the leaked CS photos and Depositions that they had in their possession and to the investigative part of it.

MOO

I would think contacting LE about what they recieved was done as a citizen not as a lawyer?

 

[MistyWaters]

Right not as a lawyer, but I believe he became a party to the case when MS aka Greenley notified LE of the leaked CS photos and Depositions that they had in their possession and to the investigative part of it.

MOO

I don’t know but I’ve always assumed lawyers have access to good legal advice. I suppose anyone could’ve reported violation of the gag order, the evidence was there, but no indication that happened. It didn’t require a lawyer to know the leaked material being circulated was wrong, to contact police about it.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

I would think contacting LE about what they recieved was done as a citizen not as a lawyer?

Agree

 

[MistyWaters]

What if B was lying about the leak being a one time incident? I don’t think we’ve heard the last of it.

‘Don’t think I have a choice’: Docs show judge in Delphi murders case wanted defense removed prior to withdrawal

ALLEN COUNTY, Ind. — Allen Superior Judge Fran Gull, the woman appointed to oversee the trial of Richard Allen in the Delphi double murders case, has released a transcript of a meeting in her chamb…

fox59.com

“I’m concerned that the leak is not just a one time leak,” the prosecutor is quoted as saying. “The evidence that we have shows it is an ongoing leak, however, it’s being done, and it’s just what’s next? I mean, I spent the past 17 days investigating this night and day when I should have been focused on preparing for trial.”

Quoting my own post to say it has to be obvious to anyone with even average eyesight that the 136 page jabbering memo was not written by attorneys. And so whoever wrote it, whether a group or individual, would‘ve required access to the discovery as well. So I wonder if that’s what NMcL was referring to?

It would even be beyond grossly negligent if B&R had handed off work on this case to unapproved 3rd parties.

JMO

 

[mrjitty]

.

What if B was lying about the leak being a one time incident? I don’t think we’ve heard the last of it.

‘Don’t think I have a choice’: Docs show judge in Delphi murders case wanted defense removed prior to withdrawal

ALLEN COUNTY, Ind. — Allen Superior Judge Fran Gull, the woman appointed to oversee the trial of Richard Allen in the Delphi double murders case, has released a transcript of a meeting in her chamb…

fox59.com

“I’m concerned that the leak is not just a one time leak,” the prosecutor is quoted as saying. “The evidence that we have shows it is an ongoing leak, however, it’s being done, and it’s just what’s next? I mean, I spent the past 17 days investigating this night and day when I should have been focused on preparing for trial.”

MS Podcast made this exact allegation today. They claim to have seen screenshots of defence strategy and other info that was leaked. They basically implied BA was giving stuff to MW or he had ongoing access. They linked this to Rozzi reiterating that BA had discussed case strategy with MW.

I guess one of the issues is it could take weeks or months for such an investigation to play out?

 

[wary]

I've seen many Judges coming from the Defense side that I thought favored the defense. I wouldn't presume it was more favorable either way.

MOO

I think that we often see judges who are extremely concerned to protect the integrity of the court proceedings, so the trial results don’t get overturned on appeal. In practice, I think that tends to make them look as though they favor the defense, even though that’s not their motivation.

All MOO

 

[tlcya]

Really weird, good eye!

I suspect they were worried about Disqualification and felt the judge out about where her thoughts lay about that topic in a phone call. She said she was leaning that way and they requested the in camera "huddle".

 

[Jurisprudence]

I’m disappointed to continue to read people misunderstanding frustration with Judge Gull’s failure to properly and impartially do her job as some sort of personal animus toward her. If she had carried out her duties properly, neither of the two matters would be before SCOIN right now. I understand some people think Baldwin and Rozzi have committed grievous mistakes. From there, it does not logically follow that Gull hasn’t really botched this. She has, and it’s a disservice not only to the defendant but also to the victims and to the public. JMO

"The Committee on Character and Fitness interviews applicants for admission to the Indiana Bar to determine whether such applicants possess the requisite character and fitness to practice law and are familiar with and agree to be bound by the Rules of Professional Conduct. See Ind. Admission and Discipline Rule 12. The Supreme Court appoints members of the bar to the Committee pursuant to Indiana Admission and Discipline Rule 12(4).

The Court hereby appoints the following members of the Indiana Bar to the Committee on Character and Fitness to serve until successors are appointed:

... BRADLEY A. ROZZI"

She did it in the most damaging way she could think of. Attorneys who have no mark on their records, unlike the one she just appointed in their place, and who have practices to run and families to support. To damage them publicly because you do not have the goods to succeed on a formal complaint to the disciplinary committee is beyond the pale.

jmo

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

 

[susiQ]

It’s unusual to see lengthy discussion of suggestions that LE and the court system are potentially involved in a conspiracy. At least I think that’s what’s being suggested.

I have been waiting to read some clear suggestions for potential outcomes to move forward. Thank you for providing one, @mrjitty.

I’d like to see some more.

I don’t believe anyone is suggesting that JG is conspiring with anyone. She seems partial to the P and appears to have it in for the D, R & B. That’s just my opinion. She could have done better. Regardless of the “leak” and who is responsible, no one is arguing that it was “okay.” It wasn’t and hopefully it won’t happen again.

With regard to LE conspiring, what’s one to think when a fruitful line of investigation is shut down, repeatedly, especially when there are dedicated LE that are trying to get to the bottom of who’s who, who knows what and who are they connected to? To think that some LE are never compromised by personal agendas is wishful thinking. Stating that does not make me anti LE or a conspiracy theorist. In my opinion, there were some very good LE on this case and their investigations were thwarted. I call that a conspiracy, “a secret plan by a group to do something illegal or harmful”.

If anyone is interested in finding the connections, the internet is your playground. Pictures are worth a thousand words they say. JMHO

 

[Cyber sleuth]

"The Committee on Character and Fitness interviews applicants for admission to the Indiana Bar to determine whether such applicants possess the requisite character and fitness to practice law and are familiar with and agree to be bound by the Rules of Professional Conduct. See Ind. Admission and Discipline Rule 12. The Supreme Court appoints members of the bar to the Committee pursuant to Indiana Admission and Discipline Rule 12(4).

The Court hereby appoints the following members of the Indiana Bar to the Committee on Character and Fitness to serve until successors are appointed:

SBM
I found in the transcripts page 21 line 5 very interesting wording that BR says “I’ve never had a disciplinary complaint, in my life that been confirmed, if you will.”
This immediately raised a yellow flag for me because it appears he is skirting around a possible complaint that was not confirmed. I don’t know how this process works so could there have been a complaint(s) dismissed or not confirmed?

Also one more question if you would indulge me.

What would have happened if AB/BR had elected to not withdraw orally and go on into court?

Could this defense team immediately ask for a continuance to prepare, to allow for due process in regards to DQ proceedings?

Ok it was more like two questions. I appreciate your expert input.

 

[Jurisprudence]

Hmmmm, I just googled
"Who is currently tasked with representing Richard Allen in the Delphi case?

This was one of many MSM articles stating the same thing:

Allen’s recently appointed public defenders, William S. Lebrato and Robert C. Scremin, asked Gull to push Allen’s trial back.

So it looks like his attorneys are Lebrato and Scremin?

Civil attorneys for Delphi murders suspect ask Indiana Supreme Court to remove judge, reinstate defense attorneys



"



JMO

And, that's what google gets you....
Google isn't making the connection that the matter is currently a live issue, accepted by the state supreme court. In fact, many aren't.

 

[susiQ]

SBM
I found in the transcripts page 21 line 5 very interesting wording that BR says “I’ve never had a disciplinary complaint, in my life that been confirmed, if you will.”
This immediately raised a yellow flag for me because it appears he is skirting around a possible complaint that was not confirmed. I don’t know how this process works so could there have been a complaint(s) dismissed or not confirmed?

Also one more question if you would indulge me.

What would have happened if AB/BR had elected to not withdraw orally and go on into court?

Could this defense team immediately ask for a continuance to prepare, to allow for due process in regards to DQ proceedings?

Ok it was more like two questions. I appreciate your expert input.

This doesn’t surprise me at all. You will always have some client/customer that isn’t satisfied with your efforts. The fact that nothing was ever ”confirmed” speaks to the fact that it was not proven in any way that he failed in his duties. JMO